Thread: The Horsemen

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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Chonar View Post
    I thought it was Darion, back when the initial plan was still for Tirion to be the fourth horseman.
    You know, before a buncha snobby paladins stopped you.
    I remember wiping the floor with them , what actually stopped us was the power of the Light that seems to be very strong at Light's Hope. Strong enough to even overpower Arthas at his strongest (before his heart was destroyed), so we were kinda outmatched to begin with.

    I still feel that in the context of the Legion Invasion, raising Tirion was a very logical thing to do. We weren't about to use him to conquer the planet (yet...), but to prevent Sargeras from killing everyone. Considering he was willing to become the Lich King for the good of the world, I actually think he would have approved of a second chance. But that damn Light is so posessive...

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    Put that against a Jailer/soul-empowered Sylvanas, and it's not that unreasonable that she wipes the floor with him.
    What I'm more interested in is how she managed to deal with 3 dozens of undeads without using any arrow, except the last undead she headshots. Especially all this while fighting Bolvar at the same time, as he "engages" in the cinematic with already 3 arrows embedded into this chest.

    Still hoping for something that was "cut out" because it could spoil BfA's ending ? Dunno

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    Yeah, this is true. But I feel like it would have made for a better story/moment if the battle had at least some back and forth. Hell, having him hit her with things that she shrugs off would send a stronger message IMO than her magically dodging everything.
    It would have made a more epic cutscene, no doubt.

    But my counter to your above is that she's really not that tough physically(as evidenced by Saurfangs blade being able to cut her), but very agile(Saurfang cutscene) and magically empowered(big death blast at Saurfang and the chains).
    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
    i find it hard to believe some random raid from BFA would draw in more players than the battleground patch in classic
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    FruitySalad boy, this is a fantastic thread and is really going places. I just want to make sure I'm on page one of what is bound to be a long lasting and productive thread. It's amazing there are no other threads discussing the squish, as I'm confident you would have just posted in them if they did exist.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I fully expected her to win (and fully agree that the story needed her to win), but the moment and the battle itself would have been more epic and interesting if it hadn't been so one-sided.

    When he stood up and channeled the power of that mace to convert all of his burns to frost energy, I was like 'oh shit! This is going to be epic!' Instead, we got what was basically a cat playing with a mouse. There wasn't anything epic about it, at least not in my opinion.

    Its great that he's still alive (however 'alive' he is at this point) but is there going to be a payoff for that? After BFA's mediocre storytelling, I'm not holding my breath.
    I think the mistake they made was making it a CGI cinematic instead of an ingame one. The former are super mega hella expensive, to the tune of millions of dollars per minute. Should've made it a gameplay cinematic so they could put more into it. All they could do was squeeze as many, as you said, oh shit moments into it but had to be brief.
    -- Remember, never look over the long term story and try to piece together what Blizzard planned, only take singular moments out of context and blow them way out of proportion. We can argue better that way. Every time I try to look at the story as Blizzard are presenting it I'm either called a shill or a fanfiction writer. - Powerogue 2019

  5. #25
    Over 9000! Mirishka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    I think the mistake they made was making it a CGI cinematic instead of an ingame one. The former are super mega hella expensive, to the tune of millions of dollars per minute. Should've made it a gameplay cinematic so they could put more into it. All they could do was squeeze as many, as you said, oh shit moments into it but had to be brief.
    Agreed. I honestly prefer the in-game style cinematics because they look like the game we're playing. The CGI ones don't and they veer into 'uncanny valley' for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    It would have made a more epic cutscene, no doubt.

    But my counter to your above is that she's really not that tough physically(as evidenced by Saurfangs blade being able to cut her), but very agile(Saurfang cutscene) and magically empowered(big death blast at Saurfang and the chains).
    Good points, and I always appreciate good replies. Thanks

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    Yeah, this is true. But I feel like it would have made for a better story/moment if the battle had at least some back and forth. Hell, having him hit her with things that she shrugs off would send a stronger message IMO than her magically dodging everything.
    She did cop a whack from a pillar of ice it just didn’t do much. She didn’t damage him too much either though, only won when the chains secured him in place so she could pull off the Helm

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    When you're asked a lore question do you even bother thinking of a Watsonian explanation or do you just type some Doylian "lol plot convenience Blizz was lazy" canned response without even bothering to think?
    Why should we give those "writers" such benefit when they shape everything around rule of cool and/or marketing and/or gameplay.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Why should we give those "writers" such benefit when they shape everything around rule of cool and/or marketing and/or gameplay.
    I dunno. To make even the tiniest attempt to hide your rampant bias? You're like a vegan at a barbecue trying to "pretend" you like meat, but break your cover every other sentence.
    -- Remember, never look over the long term story and try to piece together what Blizzard planned, only take singular moments out of context and blow them way out of proportion. We can argue better that way. Every time I try to look at the story as Blizzard are presenting it I'm either called a shill or a fanfiction writer. - Powerogue 2019

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    I don't play a death knight so I'm not sure. Does the Bolvar the Horsemen are standing with have the helm or not? If not, this event takes place after Bolvar was defeated and it's possible the Horsemen weren't around to help. If he does, it could be the events of raising the allied race death knights took place well before Sylvanas' attack and Bolvar, not knowing he was in danger, sent them away on tasks.

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    When you're asked a lore question do you even bother thinking of a Watsonian explanation or do you just type some Doylian "lol plot convenience Blizz was lazy" canned response without even bothering to think?
    The above explanation is your own guess and not something told to us in story. If I'm supposed to believe the reason Bolvar's 4 Horsemen weren't there after the fact he has risen new Death Knights because he knows Sylvanas is going to make a move, and he sends them out on task for any extended amount of time, then I have to believe Bolvar is a moron and poor strategist (and I do, and this will likely be explained as to where the 4 Horsemen were, and this will be the reason, too.)

    The stupidity in sending away your 4 top lieutenants for any extended period of time during what you know are incoming times of war is paramount to Kel'thuzad sending the 4 Horsemen out to buy plagued bread, then 25 adventurers rush into Naxxramas while they're absent and kill him.

  10. #30
    Old God Maxilian's Avatar
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    They are most likely going around dealing with the whole N'zoth debacle, helping out here and there, so that may be the reason why Sylvanas get to the LK without that much of a problem

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    The above explanation is your own guess and not something told to us in story. If I'm supposed to believe the reason Bolvar's 4 Horsemen weren't there after the fact he has risen new Death Knights because he knows Sylvanas is going to make a move, and he sends them out on task for any extended amount of time, then I have to believe Bolvar is a moron and poor strategist (and I do, and this will likely be explained as to where the 4 Horsemen were, and this will be the reason, too.)

    The stupidity in sending away your 4 top lieutenants for any extended period of time during what you know are incoming times of war is paramount to Kel'thuzad sending the 4 Horsemen out to buy plagued bread, then 25 adventurers rush into Naxxramas while they're absent and kill him.
    You say my explanation is my own guess and not in story, then follow it up with "The stupidity in sending away your 4 top lieutenants for any extended period of time during what you know are incoming times of war is paramount to Kel'thuzad sending the 4 Horsemen out to buy plagued bread, then 25 adventurers rush into Naxxramas while they're absent and kill him. ?" Can you smell the hypocrisy?

    Also to clarify, does Bolvar know Sylvanas is going to attack him or is that something you are making up to try to make the writing look bad? Also the entire premise of "don't send your strong people out on important missions, you might get attacked at home" is ludicrous. Nothing would get done.
    -- Remember, never look over the long term story and try to piece together what Blizzard planned, only take singular moments out of context and blow them way out of proportion. We can argue better that way. Every time I try to look at the story as Blizzard are presenting it I'm either called a shill or a fanfiction writer. - Powerogue 2019

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    You say my explanation is my own guess and not in story, then follow it up with "The stupidity in sending away your 4 top lieutenants for any extended period of time during what you know are incoming times of war is paramount to Kel'thuzad sending the 4 Horsemen out to buy plagued bread, then 25 adventurers rush into Naxxramas while they're absent and kill him. ?" Can you smell the hypocrisy?
    What hypocrisy? I said sending away your four top lieutenants for any extended period of time that leaves you vulnerable to attack is a stupid idea, one you seem to advocate is not so stupid based on a rough guess?

    Also to clarify, does Bolvar know Sylvanas is going to attack him or is that something you are making up to try to make the writing look bad? Also the entire premise of "don't send your strong people out on important missions, you might get attacked at home" is ludicrous. Nothing would get done.
    I mean, if he's raising new Death Knights and Sylvanas is living rent free inside his head, he knows she poses a threat to him or Azeroth's living as a whole. If The Lich King himself has these thoughts, he believes her to be a credible threat, perhaps to his own life.

    It's ludicrous to make sure your base of operations is well guarded? Fantasy and medieval war trope strategy 101 is making sure your castle or base is always well guarded, especially during times of war. If missions must be conducted abroad, that's fine, but you never send out all your best men and leave yourself spread open to attack, or you end up like Bolvar did--sacked and broken. We have no idea what the hell Bolvar sent the Horsemen out to do, if anything at all, it's not explained, it's not stated, or written anywhere in a quest, in the cinematic, in a book, or even a blue post. That's bad story-telling. If the writer doesn't justify important plot components to present a credible story or chapter, and willingly withholds information for plot convenience that isn't even important to the overall story arc at a later point, it's the readers' responsibility to make heads or tails of what the hell is going on?

    What was so important that Bolvar sent away his 4 Horsemen? It better be revealed to be important at some point in the Shadowlands' story, or it's a major plot hole.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    What hypocrisy? I said sending away your four top lieutenants for any extended period of time that leaves you vulnerable to attack is a stupid idea, one you seem to advocate is not so stupid based on a rough guess?



    I mean, if he's raising new Death Knights and Sylvanas is living rent free inside his head, he knows she poses a threat to him or Azeroth's living as a whole. If The Lich King himself has these thoughts, he believes her to be a credible threat, perhaps to his own life.

    It's ludicrous to make sure your base of operations is well guarded? Fantasy and medieval war trope strategy 101 is making sure your castle or base is always well guarded, especially during times of war. If missions must be conducted abroad, that's fine, but you never send out all your best men and leave yourself spread open to attack, or you end up like Bolvar did--sacked and broken. We have no idea what the hell Bolvar sent the Horsemen out to do, if anything at all, it's not explained, it's not stated, or written anywhere in a quest, in the cinematic, in a book, or even a blue post. That's bad story-telling. If the writer doesn't justify important plot components to present a credible story or chapter, and willingly withholds information for plot convenience that isn't even important to the overall story arc at a later point, it's the readers' responsibility to make heads or tails of what the hell is going on?

    What was so important that Bolvar sent away his 4 Horsemen? It better be revealed to be important at some point in the Shadowlands' story, or it's a major plot hole.
    You said my answer was just a guess on my part, then used your own guess as justification for why Bolvar was stupid. That's why I called you a hypocrite.

    Again, you're making claims without evidence. "Sylvanas is living inside his head"? What is this even? There's innumerable threats to the world out there. I'd say it would be an even biggest asspull if Bolvar was planning specifically to take down Sylvanas in case she attacked.

    Also, you're making a false dichotomy. You can have your base well defended without keeping your four strongest agents, who could be doing valuable work out in the work to actually advance your agenda, instead of just covering yourself. Bolvar either didn't think he was in immediate danger or he figured he could handle whatever was send his way with the forces he had.

    Also this:
    "We have no idea what the hell Bolvar sent the Horsemen out to do, if anything at all, it's not explained, it's not stated, or written anywhere in a quest, in the cinematic, in a book, or even a blue post. That's bad story-telling." Um, what the actual fuck is this? Are you actually trying to argue that not knowing everything about a situation as it unfolds is bad storytelling? We'll find out what the horsemen were up to when it's time for us to find out. Not knowing now is not bad writing.

    This actually feels familiar. Have we had this argument before where you cried bad writing because the "why's" and "how's" about something had yet to be revealed.
    -- Remember, never look over the long term story and try to piece together what Blizzard planned, only take singular moments out of context and blow them way out of proportion. We can argue better that way. Every time I try to look at the story as Blizzard are presenting it I'm either called a shill or a fanfiction writer. - Powerogue 2019

  14. #34
    The Patient Strun's Avatar
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    What's interesting is there are people who will make an allied race Death Knight, speak to the horsemen as needed, level their characters, and then be put in charge of raising them in the first place during the Legion class hall questline.
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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    You said my answer was just a guess on my part, then used your own guess as justification for why Bolvar was stupid. That's why I called you a hypocrite.
    Dude, mine was a joke! I said "send out the 4 Horsemen to buy plagued bread!" Lol

    Again, you're making claims without evidence. "Sylvanas is living inside his head"? What is this even? There's innumerable threats to the world out there. I'd say it would be an even biggest asspull if Bolvar was planning specifically to take down Sylvanas in case she attacked.
    It means he's thinking about her because he feels she is enough of a credible threat to warrant raising new Death Knights, not something he has ever done before.

    Also, you're making a false dichotomy. You can have your base well defended without keeping your four strongest agents, who could be doing valuable work out in the work to actually advance your agenda, instead of just covering yourself. Bolvar either didn't think he was in immediate danger or he figured he could handle whatever was send his way with the forces he had.
    Well Bolvar made a mistake, didn't he? Because he left himself open to attack and he got curb stomped. Where were his most powerful lieutenants? We don't know, and it's not our job to make sense of the story, we're not writing this thing.

    Also this:
    "We have no idea what the hell Bolvar sent the Horsemen out to do, if anything at all, it's not explained, it's not stated, or written anywhere in a quest, in the cinematic, in a book, or even a blue post. That's bad story-telling." Um, what the actual fuck is this? Are you actually trying to argue that not knowing everything about a situation as it unfolds is bad storytelling? We'll find out what the horsemen were up to when it's time for us to find out. Not knowing now is not bad writing.
    You act like Blizzard is notoriously known for crafting great storylines devoid of bad story-telling tropes and poor technique. We'll find out pending Bizzard even realized they omitted the 4 Horsemen from the confrontation, and did so for good reason. A side quest not of utmost important would not qualify as justifiable, but you're a lot more forgiving to potentially pedestrian-levels of shit story-telling like what we've gotten out of the faction war in BfA.

    This actually feels familiar. Have we had this argument before where you cried bad writing because the "why's" and "how's" about something had yet to be revealed.
    I don't recall ever having a discussion or extended back and forth with you on WoW lore in particular, but if you want to die on a hill defending why the 4 Horsemen not being at ICC to fight for Bolvar while preparations are being made for what appears to be a powerful enemy is a good idea, by all means.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by MrLachyG View Post
    so I did the intro experience for new DK's and the 4 Horseman (Mograine, Whitemane, Nazgrim and Trollbane) were standing in front of the Lich King aka Bolvar. does this mean, going off the Shadowlands cinematic, that Sylvanas dispatched them as well? If no, I presume it is because they weren't there so why didn't the Lich King call them for help? just sparked my curiosity
    my theory is that Bolvar simply spared the 4 horseman because he knew it was pointless and silvanas was going to win anyway.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    Yeah, this is true. But I feel like it would have made for a better story/moment if the battle had at least some back and forth. Hell, having him hit her with things that she shrugs off would send a stronger message IMO than her magically dodging everything.
    I agree on principle that Bolvar should of put up more of a fight but.. I guess thats just where Blizz sorta differs in our vision of the cinematic. I still hope Bolvar gets a bit of revenge...later on.
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Hmmm, good question.

    Actually as a matter of fact, the Horsemen being there is weird already. They were after all raised by the Deathlord (aka PC DK) in Legion and have no direct connection to the Lich King and because of that they are usually in Archerus not Icecrown.

    There were shared interests and the Lich King had plans for the Death Knights, but they were quite adamant that they would not become his servants again.
    Lich King tells you who to raise directly to serve you and him if need be. He gives you the power to raise them with free will.
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  19. #39
    Over 9000! Mirishka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    I agree on principle that Bolvar should of put up more of a fight but.. I guess thats just where Blizz sorta differs in our vision of the cinematic. I still hope Bolvar gets a bit of revenge...later on.
    As do I.

    /10char

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strun View Post
    What's interesting is there are people who will make an allied race Death Knight, speak to the horsemen as needed, level their characters, and then be put in charge of raising them in the first place during the Legion class hall questline.
    Yeah, WoW and its funky timeline stuff. lol

  20. #40
    It was Monopoly night in Naxxramas

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