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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Most of my b.net friends play it now, and as one of the original players, you'd think I'd be drawn to it for ol'nostalgia's sake or because one of the many problems I'm dissatisfied with in live.

    Yet, I can't bear playing it, tried a number of times. It is worse in nearly every way to live. The only thing it has over live is community. Somehow despite the brilliance that was sharding and xrealm (something I use to seriously suggest back in the day ), live has lost togetherness. It's hard to explain.

    However, in every departement it is vastly superior to classic. Classes, races, system, art, functionality, the works.. all so much better. Live is far more engaging - the only regret i think is that you can't actually experience the entire expansion systems as you level through them. It would have been nice if Shadowlands gave you the systems that were in place during the expansion you lveelled. But that doesn't make practical sense as it'd be too confusing for players.
    The problem is that most of the things that make retail so great are in turn also a big part of what killed the feeling of 'togetherness'. It depends on what you value more, I guess.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by TJ View Post
    Well, I would argue that a rotation should have numerous buttons (with cd usage synced in) and require a decent amount of skill to perform optimally, and therefore make it a challenge to play at the top level and separate the best players from the poor ones. Would you not agree? I don't think Classic does that.
    Right, all of those things are your opinion on what makes a rotation good. I do not agree with those things, as it turns out, and that's why "objectively good rotation" is not something that can exist.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by unbound View Post
    Well, some people think Battlefield Earth is a great film. They are a clear minority, and if that is what they enjoy, so be it. Now, if they want to argue with other people that it is a far better film that most other films...well, that is just delusional.

    And so it is with WoW. Retail is not better than, much less superior to, Classic. If you are looking for a solution, you need to first stop fooling yourself. Retail is not a superior game...it is a lesser game that you happen to enjoy. Next, you just need to start hanging out with others who like the lesser game. They are out there and they are probably not who you used to hang out with. And that's fine...form your "Battlefield Earth is the best movie" fan club and enjoy.
    Here is the funny part of all this - you are literally the guy who likes Battlefield Earth and you just cannot understand why everyone thinks you are crazy, as you flap on and on about what a great film it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mozu View Post
    Right, all of those things are your opinion on what makes a rotation good. I do not agree with those things, as it turns out, and that's why "objectively good rotation" is not something that can exist.
    In your opinion, can a rotation be objectively bad?

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Most of my b.net friends play it now, and as one of the original players, you'd think I'd be drawn to it for ol'nostalgia's sake or because one of the many problems I'm dissatisfied with in live.

    Yet, I can't bear playing it, tried a number of times. It is worse in nearly every way to live. The only thing it has over live is community. Somehow despite the brilliance that was sharding and xrealm (something I use to seriously suggest back in the day ), live has lost togetherness. It's hard to explain.

    However, in every departement it is vastly superior to classic. Classes, races, system, art, functionality, the works.. all so much better. Live is far more engaging - the only regret i think is that you can't actually experience the entire expansion systems as you level through them. It would have been nice if Shadowlands gave you the systems that were in place during the expansion you lveelled. But that doesn't make practical sense as it'd be too confusing for players.
    What challenging for a lot of us is we feel like there’s a version of the game out there that we would like, but it’s not either live or classic.

    My particular Frankenstein would be to take a ton of things from Cata launch (dungeons, pre raid gearing, raid gear), classic leveling, mega realms, Wrath style professions, universally flexible lockouts, 3 raid tiers per expansion, Wrath classes (delete dh and monk), etc. etc. etc.

    Neither live nor classic is particularly close to what I want, so I play neither.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metallourlante View Post
    It's not supposed to be fun, we are not in 2009. It's supposed to be frustrating and keep you hooked longer.

  5. #105
    Sometimes people just need instant gratification.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by msdos View Post
    Seeing my retail guild talk about doing 19 keys for this and +6s for gear and this and that and they don't even have a raid team, no one plays, no one cares, there's like 3 people who really play retail, yet people are acting like 20 people are suddenly gonna come back and sign up for raid. This might be the most delusional I've ever seen people act, it's so bizarre.
    Like I have zero interest in grinding a single thing anymore. No interest in sub races, I don't care about vessels and nightmares and sockets and corruption, none of this garbage is new, it's just stats being re-offered in a different way (you benefit more from haste, oh okay, so more hate? how is this new?)

    They pretend I don't exist because I don't log on retail and everyone ignores any dialogue about anything. Someone in the guild vanished and hasn't logged on retail in 6 months, eh, don't bring it up! Our 100% attendance people don't log on anymore, just don't talk about it!! No one is signing up for raid... Um, it's cool, it doesn't mean anything!!! The guild is dead now. NO IT ISN'T!! REEEEE!
    It's laughable.
    Like the people who claim classic has any difficult content at all. Its always a good chuckle.

  7. #107
    [QUOTE=arkanon;52028607]Here is the funny part of all this - you are literally the guy who likes Battlefield Earth and you just cannot understand why everyone thinks you are crazy, as you flap on and on about what a great film it is.


    You clearly missed his point. Hes measuring success.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    What challenging for a lot of us is we feel like there’s a version of the game out there that we would like, but it’s not either live or classic.

    My particular Frankenstein would be to take a ton of things from Cata launch (dungeons, pre raid gearing, raid gear), classic leveling, mega realms, Wrath style professions, universally flexible lockouts, 3 raid tiers per expansion, Wrath classes (delete dh and monk), etc. etc. etc.

    Neither live nor classic is particularly close to what I want, so I play neither.
    Out of interest, why in particular do you want DH and monk removed from the game, but not DK?

  9. #109
    Immortal TJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    What challenging for a lot of us is we feel like there’s a version of the game out there that we would like, but it’s not either live or classic.

    My particular Frankenstein would be to take a ton of things from Cata launch (dungeons, pre raid gearing, raid gear), classic leveling, mega realms, Wrath style professions, universally flexible lockouts, 3 raid tiers per expansion, Wrath classes (delete dh and monk), etc. etc. etc.

    Neither live nor classic is particularly close to what I want, so I play neither.
    I agree, it's a shame they don't look at what people think are the best elements of each expac and implement them to make a mega one :P But, of course, all that stuff is different for every player.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Rainyhealz View Post
    You clearly missed his point. Hes measuring success.
    What is he using to measure success?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TJ View Post
    I agree, it's a shame they don't look at what people think are the best elements of each expac and implement them to make a mega one :P But, of course, all that stuff is different for every player.
    Nail on head. For example, i think the idea of removing classes is absolutely idiotic.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Out of interest, why in particular do you want DH and monk removed from the game, but not DK?
    Dh ruined the game. Overpowered monk niche and made monk niche inferior in all aspects. Literally a class for genji mains adderralled out of their mind

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    In your opinion, can a rotation be objectively bad?
    When the express intent of anything is to create "fun," objectivity cannot exist since fun is different for every single player.

    At best, we can look at things that are popular and those that are not. But without actual data, all we have are guesses as to actual popularity.

    People tend to throw out claims based on their perceived popularity of rotations based on forum threads and such, but I have personal experience along with other anecdotes that at the very least suggests it's not as "obvious" as they claim.

  13. #113
    [QUOTE=arkanon;52028633]What is he using to measure success?

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    Well for one, even with the new patch 8.3, wow classic full servers show more active players than wow retail full servers where you cant even find 5 people near u on the same realm

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mozu View Post
    I don't think you know what objective or fact means, pal.

    Rotations are not worse in classic in my opinion.

    That's exactly what it means because there is nothing objective about how good a rotation is.
    Then please explain why you think classic rotations are better. Do you simply enjoy having less to do? You get excited by the absence of synergy between abilities? Procs stress you out so you want none of them?

    For example when I play unholy DK, I can use a buff on my ghoul that gives him the ability to cleave and, along with a talent, a chance to apply a debuff on mobs, Scourge strike allows me to burst that debuff for extra damage, and when I use death and decay and stand in it, my scourge strike becomes AoE which allows to pop several debuffs at the same time that my pet previously applied because of the buff I gave him. This creates a special moment in the rotation with how a bunch of skills interact with each other.

    That's depth that doesn't exist in any classic rotation. That's more originality than in any classic rotation. If you don't agree it means you have evidence to prove there's rotations in classic that are better. I'm not talking about what you enjoy, maybe you enjoy bad rotations with nothing going on, that doesn't mean classic rotations are better, and it doesn't mean the quality of rotations are subjective. Your APPRECIATION of the rotation is what is subjective, not the quality of the design itself, but what we enjoy/dislike is just perspective, you have to detach yourself from that bias, understand things for what they really are without your tastes, and make a judgment based on the neutral elements alone.

    So basically if you don't agree with the points I brought up it means you have points to prove my points wrong. I'm not saying "you don't like classic rotations", I'm sure you do, and this entire conversation will not change what you enjoy in the game. It's only to make you realize that perspective and reality are 2 disconnected things, what we feel about something is not proof of quality, we can analyze and understand things beyond our preferences (subjectivity) to discover their true state (objectivity). It's perfectly fine to prefer classic rotations, but it's not fine to say they're better than retail rotations, instead of denying facts because they don't align with your preferences you're supposed to acknowledge them and that you like bad things. I like bad things too, everybody does, it's normal, there's also some classic rotations that I enjoy, they're still bad compared to retail, because my opinions and the facts are not the same, that's the situation for you, me, the next guy, your mom, your dog, everyone.
    Cure cancer, delete factions.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    Then please explain why you think classic rotations are better. Do you simply enjoy having less to do? You get excited by the absence of synergy between abilities? Procs stress you out so you want none of them?
    Having a greater emphasis on the buttons you press is much more enjoyable, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    If you don't agree it means you have evidence to prove there's rotations in classic that are better. I'm not talking about what you enjoy, maybe you enjoy bad rotations with nothing going on, that doesn't mean classic rotations are better, and it doesn't mean the quality of rotations are subjective. Your APPRECIATION of the rotation is what is subjective, not the quality of the design itself, but what we enjoy/dislike is just perspective, you have to detach yourself from that bias, understand things for what they really are without your tastes, and make a judgment based on the neutral elements alone.

    So basically if you don't agree with the points I brought up it means you have points to prove my points wrong. I'm not saying "you don't like classic rotations", I'm sure you do, and this entire conversation will not change what you enjoy in the game. It's only to make you realize that perspective and reality are 2 disconnected things, what we feel about something is not proof of quality, we can analyze and understand things beyond our preferences (subjectivity) to discover their true state (objectivity). It's perfectly fine to prefer classic rotations, but it's not fine to say they're better than retail rotations, instead of denying facts because they don't align with your preferences you're supposed to acknowledge them and that you like bad things. I like bad things too, everybody does, it's normal, there's also some classic rotations that I enjoy, they're still bad compared to retail, because my opinions and the facts are not the same, that's the situation for you, me, the next guy, your mom, your dog, everyone.
    Nope, you still apparently don't understand that "good" and "bad" rotations are not something you can claim as fact. Because you feel retail rotations are better "quality" does not make it reality for anyone but yourself.
    Last edited by Mozu; 2020-01-17 at 08:57 PM.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Laqweeta View Post
    Sometimes people just need instant gratification.
    And what gratification is there in Classic? There is no difficulty in the grind and the raids are braindead.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    Then please explain why you think classic rotations are better. Do you simply enjoy having less to do? You get excited by the absence of synergy between abilities? Procs stress you out so you want none of them?
    Classic reminded me why all those years ago I considered raids the coolest points of my weekly schedule - this feeling deteriorated on retail over years, and I wasted embarassing amount of time chasing after that feeling, going hardcore, than casual, then even more hardcore... not understanding why I don't have fun like I used to.

    For me, and for a lot of people it seems, raids were something that allowed me to RELAX.

    "Modern" gaming is infested by esports approach. Everything needs to be competitive, everything needs to revolve around skill, everything needs to be fast and sudden and require constant focus and insane reactions so you can prove you are better than other players. Except... I never got into WoW to prove I'm better than anyone, or seek competition and stress in a boring life... on the contrary, my life was always quite stressful, raid was a chill moment where I could have fun with other people, and satisfaction from achieving a goal towards which we were working together. Work as, slow and steady, not agressively smashing our keyboards.

    I understand people that use games as a way of testing themselves. For me though, and for many others, it was never the point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    When an orc eats an orc, two orcs rip out of the orcs stomach, they eat each other and a brand new orc walks through the door, and then his chest explodes and 20 full grown orcs crawl out of his body. They then eat each other and the bodies until there are 3 orcs left. The mystery of the orc reproduction cycle.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by liberaet View Post
    To each their own I guess, I have stopped playing retail at all and am enjoying Classic all these months. Not because of nostalgia, but because for me it simply is a better game in all departments and incomparably more engaging. I even consider retail WoW an insult to Warcraft and an evidence that Blizzard has sold out.

    What I don't understand, however, why did you make a post about it, looks to me as if you have a grudge with Classic.
    Wow!!! You go on a thinly veiled rant about retail (and your obvious grudge with it) and then have the balls to question why OP did the same with classic!!! You are something special. Or is it only okay to not like retail?

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Casperite View Post
    Wow!!! You go on a thinly veiled rant about retail (and your obvious grudge with it) and then have the balls to question why OP did the same with classic!!! You are something special. Or is it only okay to not like retail?
    Thats how the classic community works - a percentage of them only want an echo chamber - you CANNOT question classic in any way shape or form, however they feel entitled to attack retail. Been going on forever.

  20. #120
    Brewmaster CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mozu View Post
    Having a greater emphasis on the buttons you press is much more enjoyable, yes.
    The rotation is the series of buttons you press in order to do damage during a fight. How does any skill has more emphasis in classic than in retail? Emphasis is usually something noticed based on how important the effect of a skill is in a given context, like doing a frost nova to help the tank kite for a few seconds and survive. Off the top of my head I literally cannot think of a single ROTATION (cuz that's the subject here, not class kit or utility, that's a different discussion) that has more emphasis in classic than in retail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mozu View Post
    Nope, you still apparently don't understand that "good" and "bad" rotations are not something you can claim as fact. Because you feel retail rotations are better "quality" does not make it reality.
    That's the issue, you think that's what I feel, when it's actually a reality that I understand and relay to you, devoid of feelings.

    You can say "I don't enjoy retail rotations" and move on, but making the claim that my comment is subjective without being able to prove that it is and making some form of appeal to authority based on literally nothing really doesn't help your case.

    Here's an example to prove that your "good and bad are always subjective" argument is completely useless.
    Driving on a red light is bad, driving on a green light is good. Is this just because the law says so? No, it's because there's inherent risk in the mechanics of transportation that makes crossroads dangerous when not travelled in an organized manner. Therefore it's objectively bad to drive on a red light. Does that mean it's not fun? Absolutely not, it's fucking fun to save time by burning a red light, some people would even say the risk is thrilling or they enjoy challenging authority, some people get stressed out and even stop earlier because their perspective makes them feel unsafe. The reality and the perspectives there are completely different, it's the exact same thing with pretty much everything in life, including rotations.

    Nothing you said so far proves that what I said is subjective.
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