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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by liberaet View Post
    To each their own I guess, I have stopped playing retail at all and am enjoying Classic all these months. Not because of nostalgia, but because for me it simply is a better game in all departments and incomparably more engaging. I even consider retail WoW an insult to Warcraft and an evidence that Blizzard has sold out.

    What I don't understand, however, why did you make a post about it, looks to me as if you have a grudge with Classic.
    If you can string all those worse together, surely you can see the extreme hypocrisy in your post?

  2. #122
    Brewmaster CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafoel View Post
    Classic reminded me why all those years ago I considered raids the coolest points of my weekly schedule - this feeling deteriorated on retail over years, and I wasted embarassing amount of time chasing after that feeling, going hardcore, than casual, then even more hardcore... not understanding why I don't have fun like I used to.

    For me, and for a lot of people it seems, raids were something that allowed me to RELAX.

    "Modern" gaming is infested by esports approach. Everything needs to be competitive, everything needs to revolve around skill, everything needs to be fast and sudden and require constant focus and insane reactions so you can prove you are better than other players. Except... I never got into WoW to prove I'm better than anyone, or seek competition and stress in a boring life... on the contrary, my life was always quite stressful, raid was a chill moment where I could have fun with other people, and satisfaction from achieving a goal towards which we were working together. Work as, slow and steady, not agressively smashing our keyboards.

    I understand people that use games as a way of testing themselves. For me though, and for many others, it was never the point.
    I agree with many points you said.

    But none of those points are related to rotations which was the subject of my post so I'm not really sure how it got there lol.
    Cure cancer, delete factions.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Rafoel View Post

    I understand people that use games as a way of testing themselves. For me though, and for many others, it was never the point.
    I understand why you want the game to be easy and void of meaningful challenge. For me though, and for many others, the challenge was the point.

  4. #124
    Brewmaster CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broken Fox View Post
    And what gratification is there in Classic? There is no difficulty in the grind and the raids are braindead.
    I think what he means is that there needs to be a giant time sink before any reward even if it's extremely easy to do, as if rewards were not given for achieving something but rather for wasting time.
    Cure cancer, delete factions.

  5. #125
    Herald of the Titans
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    Is this just a 'bump my post count' threads? Or 'let's incite another riot' threads?
    Or is it a 'this is my personal internet toilet paper for me to poop out a blog' threads?
    Is there a point to it other than 'I don't like a thing'?

    /super yawn
    "There are other sites on the internet designed for people to make friends or relationships. This isn't one" Darsithis Super Moderator
    Proof that the mmochamp community can be a bitter and lonely place. What a shame.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    Nothing you said so far proves that what I said is subjective.
    Your little stoplight false equivalence aside, I don't know how you're this dense. "Bad" and "good" when speaking to rotations are subjective in themselves, proven by the fact that I can say "classic rotations are good" while you can say they're bad.

  7. #127
    And I can't be bothered playing Sims. So I dont.
    Quote Originally Posted by atenime45 View Post
    The 10% reward. It's was unspoken rule that you DONT attack other faction so everyone could enjoy the 10% reward. But now no one cares about that anymore

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    Then please explain why you think classic rotations are better. Do you simply enjoy having less to do? You get excited by the absence of synergy between abilities? Procs stress you out so you want none of them?

    For example when I play unholy DK, I can use a buff on my ghoul that gives him the ability to cleave and, along with a talent, a chance to apply a debuff on mobs, Scourge strike allows me to burst that debuff for extra damage, and when I use death and decay and stand in it, my scourge strike becomes AoE which allows to pop several debuffs at the same time that my pet previously applied because of the buff I gave him. This creates a special moment in the rotation with how a bunch of skills interact with each other.

    That's depth that doesn't exist in any classic rotation. That's more originality than in any classic rotation. If you don't agree it means you have evidence to prove there's rotations in classic that are better. I'm not talking about what you enjoy, maybe you enjoy bad rotations with nothing going on, that doesn't mean classic rotations are better, and it doesn't mean the quality of rotations are subjective. Your APPRECIATION of the rotation is what is subjective, not the quality of the design itself, but what we enjoy/dislike is just perspective, you have to detach yourself from that bias, understand things for what they really are without your tastes, and make a judgment based on the neutral elements alone.

    So basically if you don't agree with the points I brought up it means you have points to prove my points wrong. I'm not saying "you don't like classic rotations", I'm sure you do, and this entire conversation will not change what you enjoy in the game. It's only to make you realize that perspective and reality are 2 disconnected things, what we feel about something is not proof of quality, we can analyze and understand things beyond our preferences (subjectivity) to discover their true state (objectivity). It's perfectly fine to prefer classic rotations, but it's not fine to say they're better than retail rotations, instead of denying facts because they don't align with your preferences you're supposed to acknowledge them and that you like bad things. I like bad things too, everybody does, it's normal, there's also some classic rotations that I enjoy, they're still bad compared to retail, because my opinions and the facts are not the same, that's the situation for you, me, the next guy, your mom, your dog, everyone.
    He/she doesn't have to have evidence or points to disagree with you. He/she can simply disagree based on feelings.

    I like how you said all of that just to come full circle and say, QUITE SUBJECTIVELY, that Classic rotations are bad. Do you have evidence they are bad? Do you just think because they are simple and less convoluted that they are bad? Do you have points to PROVE they are bad? Look, those questions are rhetorical so don't waste your time answering, but how can you say all of that just to commit the same mistake you're trying to correct?

    Just because you have more (or less) buttons and more (or less) synergy does not define something as good or bad. Instead of all that placating and word salad, YOU just need to admit you condescend to Classic fans because YOU think the rotations are bad because they are simple and less complicated. In truth, that is only your subjective opinion and no way, shape, or form an objective statement.

    The irony is strong with this one.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mozu View Post
    Your little stoplight false equivalence aside, I don't know how you're this dense. "Bad" and "good" when speaking to rotations are subjective in themselves, proven by the fact that I can say "classic rotations are good" while you can say they're bad.
    That's literally not proof of anything at all. They could be lies or wrong statements. It doesn't mean in any way shape or form that my statements were subjective.

    Here's a fun one to prove you wrong even more. Killing people is good. That's it, murder is now subjective everyone, yeehaw! It can't be bad anymore because I'm able to say it's good.

    You made the claim that "good" and "bad" are always subjective, I proved you wrong twice. You can apply the same thought process to rotations and realize I was objective all along.
    Cure cancer, delete factions.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    That's literally not proof of anything at all. They could be lies or wrong statements. It doesn't mean in any way shape or form that my statements were subjective.

    Here's a fun one to prove you wrong even more. Killing people is good. That's it, murder is now subjective everyone, yeehaw! It can't be bad anymore because I'm able to say it's good.

    You made the claim that "good" and "bad" are always subjective, I proved you wrong twice. You can apply the same thought process to rotations and realize I was objective all along.
    We have the death penalty that is "good" murder. So, yeah, still subjective. Lmao.

    The military also thinks murder is good.

    You have some weird thing where you think good vs bad is required to have global definitions instead of contextual (and ultimately subjective) ones. It's hilarious.

    My claims were in relation to opinions on rotations, but it's funny how you just keep burying yourself anyway.

  11. #131
    Are you competing with theramore on most threads created?

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozu View Post
    Your little stoplight false equivalence aside, I don't know how you're this dense. "Bad" and "good" when speaking to rotations are subjective in themselves, proven by the fact that I can say "classic rotations are good" while you can say they're bad.
    So you are suggesting that if i say "mass genocide is good" that means mass genocide is subjective?

    Can you not see how absolutely pathetic your argument is?

    Jump on google and check out some very VERY basic explanations of subjective vs objective. You are extremely confused about what they mean.

    For some reason, you seem to think that objectivity means something is true for everyone and cannot be argued. What it actually means, is that a person has reached their conclusion without being influenced by personal feelings or bias.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2020-01-17 at 10:10 PM.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    That's literally not proof of anything at all. They could be lies or wrong statements. It doesn't mean in any way shape or form that my statements were subjective.

    Here's a fun one to prove you wrong even more. Killing people is good. That's it, murder is now subjective everyone, yeehaw! It can't be bad anymore because I'm able to say it's good.

    You made the claim that "good" and "bad" are always subjective, I proved you wrong twice. You can apply the same thought process to rotations and realize I was objective all along.
    You have a deeply flawed sense of subjectivity and objectivity.

    You made the claim that Classic rotations are bad. That is your opinion, not a fact. You appear to have a modicum of intelligence. How is that lost on you?

    Also, did you just compare murder to WoW rotations? What in the actual fuck?

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Goat View Post
    You have a deeply flawed sense of subjectivity and objectivity.

    You made the claim that Classic rotations are bad. That is your opinion, not a fact. You appear to have a modicum of intelligence. How is that lost on you?

    Also, did you just compare murder to WoW rotations? What in the actual fuck?
    Objectivity is not the same thing as a fact. Before attacking someone, maybe do 15 seconds of research into a subject. You will find how wrong you are almost immediately.

  15. #135
    The Patient Cockus Maximus's Avatar
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    Honestly I agree for the most part. Classic was a good test to see where the developers took the wrong route in WoW's development. But the end game shouldn't be rerunning 15 year old content for ages. Instead, they should look at some of the systems they implemented in modern WoW and revert back.

    In my opinion, things like graphics, classes, and quests improved exponentially since Classic. On the other hand, certain design choices like xrealm/sharding and LFG before max level have ruined the community and immersion of the game.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Out of interest, why in particular do you want DH and monk removed from the game, but not DK?
    I think there are too many tanks. I also just draw the line at monks because I personally don’t find the class fantasy all that compelling, and stagger is fundamentally impossible to balance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metallourlante View Post
    It's not supposed to be fun, we are not in 2009. It's supposed to be frustrating and keep you hooked longer.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So you are suggesting that if i say "mass genocide is good" that means mass genocide is subjective?
    If you asked the various populations that pushed for mass genocide in history, I'm sure they would argue that mass genocide is good, yes.

  18. #138
    Brewmaster CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Goat View Post
    You have a deeply flawed sense of subjectivity and objectivity.

    You made the claim that Classic rotations are bad. That is your opinion, not a fact. You appear to have a modicum of intelligence. How is that lost on you?

    Also, did you just compare murder to WoW rotations? What in the actual fuck?
    I didn't make any comparison, the fact that you think it was a comparison explains why the rest of your post is also wrong.
    Cure cancer, delete factions.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    I think what he means is that there needs to be a giant time sink before any reward even if it's extremely easy to do, as if rewards were not given for achieving something but rather for wasting time.
    Yeah, a lot of MMO players seem to equate a time sink with some kind if accomplishment


    "This level grind is boring and takes too long"

    "Do you want everything handed to you?? WORK FOR IT!!"

    It's like some video game stockholm syndrome or some shit

  20. #140
    Brewmaster CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mozu View Post
    We have the death penalty that is "good" murder. So, yeah, still subjective. Lmao.

    The military also thinks murder is good.

    You have some weird thing where you think good vs bad is required to have global definitions instead of contextual (and ultimately subjective) ones. It's hilarious.

    My claims were in relation to opinions on rotations, but it's funny how you just keep burying yourself anyway.
    Death penalty is not murder by definition. War and murder are 2 completely different things.

    I use the words good and bad because you brought that up, I started this topic by saying the rotations in classic are worse than in retail. In this sense, all rotations could be bad but still leaves one better than the other, better does not necessarily mean good.

    Your claims were never supported by any explanation or evidence like I did with mine.
    Cure cancer, delete factions.

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