Page 8 of 13 FirstFirst ...
6
7
8
9
10
... LastLast
  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    Death penalty is not murder by definition. War and murder are 2 completely different things.
    You said "killing people is good" not "murder is good." Death penalty is killing people. So your little jab back is moot.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    I use the words good and bad because you brought that up, I started this topic by saying the rotations in classic are worse than in retail. In this sense, all rotations could be bad but still leaves one better than the other, better does not necessarily mean good.

    Your claims were never supported by any explanation or evidence like I did with mine.
    Your "evidence" is simply you stating they are better. Your opinion is not evidence.

  2. #142
    Brewmaster CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    The Depths Bellow
    Posts
    1,325
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Goat View Post
    He/she doesn't have to have evidence or points to disagree with you. He/she can simply disagree based on feelings.
    That's entirely explained in the post you replied to. Did you read it at all?

    The ret of your post got snipped because it was not worth replying to, I explained all of that already in a previous post. This is not a real life conversation, you can go back and see what people wrote so you don't jump in saying wrong stuff.
    Cure cancer, delete factions.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Most of my b.net friends play it now, and as one of the original players, you'd think I'd be drawn to it for ol'nostalgia's sake or because one of the many problems I'm dissatisfied with in live.

    Yet, I can't bear playing it, tried a number of times. It is worse in nearly every way to live. The only thing it has over live is community. Somehow despite the brilliance that was sharding and xrealm (something I use to seriously suggest back in the day ), live has lost togetherness. It's hard to explain.

    However, in every departement it is vastly superior to classic. Classes, races, system, art, functionality, the works.. all so much better. Live is far more engaging - the only regret i think is that you can't actually experience the entire expansion systems as you level through them. It would have been nice if Shadowlands gave you the systems that were in place during the expansion you lveelled. But that doesn't make practical sense as it'd be too confusing for players.
    I actually feel the opposite about the community. In live I'm playing with a few different groups of level-headed people who balance taking the game seriously while still having fun and having some laughs, connecting with them as a normal human would.

    In Classic, my experiences with grouping has been people getting way too mad over things that are fairly straightforward and easy, imposing their gameplay style and bs on others, and on a general note a lot of what they talk about is the latest internet rage circle-jerk topic of the week. It's a drag in light of the fact that I find the overall progression and experience of Classic to be a little more satisfying in the long term, and MORE conducive to playing with others than live is.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    The rotation is the series of buttons you press in order to do damage during a fight. How does any skill has more emphasis in classic than in retail? Emphasis is usually something noticed based on how important the effect of a skill is in a given context, like doing a frost nova to help the tank kite for a few seconds and survive. Off the top of my head I literally cannot think of a single ROTATION (cuz that's the subject here, not class kit or utility, that's a different discussion) that has more emphasis in classic than in retail.



    That's the issue, you think that's what I feel, when it's actually a reality that I understand and relay to you, devoid of feelings.

    You can say "I don't enjoy retail rotations" and move on, but making the claim that my comment is subjective without being able to prove that it is and making some form of appeal to authority based on literally nothing really doesn't help your case.

    Here's an example to prove that your "good and bad are always subjective" argument is completely useless.
    Driving on a red light is bad, driving on a green light is good. Is this just because the law says so? No, it's because there's inherent risk in the mechanics of transportation that makes crossroads dangerous when not travelled in an organized manner. Therefore it's objectively bad to drive on a red light. Does that mean it's not fun? Absolutely not, it's fucking fun to save time by burning a red light, some people would even say the risk is thrilling or they enjoy challenging authority, some people get stressed out and even stop earlier because their perspective makes them feel unsafe. The reality and the perspectives there are completely different, it's the exact same thing with pretty much everything in life, including rotations.

    Nothing you said so far proves that what I said is subjective.
    Here’s the big issue to me, as someone who hates misuse of “objective” - how does throwing “objective” on a statement make your argument more convincing? All you’re really saying is “don’t argue with me”. Claiming your opinion is objective is you not even realizing that people can have other opinions, in a sense denying your own subjectivity. It’s kind of ridiculous honestly. This forum is full of people who are like “I CAN BE OBJECTIVE BECAUSE I AM THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE AND HOW COULD ANYONE DISAGREE”!

    To your own little point: if you’ve got a medical emergency or some other issue, then there are certainly cases where running a red light is good. What’s objectively true in that case is that running red light breaks the law. Whether that’s good or bad is subjective.
    Last edited by Scrod; 2020-01-17 at 10:50 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metallourlante View Post
    It's not supposed to be fun, we are not in 2009. It's supposed to be frustrating and keep you hooked longer.

  5. #145
    I find Retail to be overwhelming, chocked full of things that don't matter. Gearing is especially repetitive and miserable. I won't deny that grinding for rare drops in Classic sucks, but your efforts can reward you a piece that lasts a seriously long time. It's also more laid back. I love mythic raiding, but with working 45+ hours a week on top of trying to raid 8-16 hours? It's brutal.

  6. #146
    Brewmaster CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    The Depths Bellow
    Posts
    1,325
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozu View Post
    You said "killing people is good" not "murder is good." Death penalty is killing people. So your little jab back is moot.

    Your "evidence" is simply you stating they are better. Your opinion is not evidence.
    No I gave many details that explain why retail rotations are better than classic rotations, stop acting like I said nothing. You just know that if you take that into consideration everything you said gets invalidated and you think you have something to win in this discussion

    Then why did you even bring up murder if that wasn't in the discussion? Oh yeah, because all you do is make shit up cuz you have nothing of value to add to this discussion.

    BTW what I said still stands, killing or murder doesn't change the meaning of the example at all. This is getting redundant.
    Cure cancer, delete factions.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Objectivity is not the same thing as a fact. Before attacking someone, maybe do 15 seconds of research into a subject. You will find how wrong you are almost immediately.
    I'm sorry, where did I say they were? Maybe read my post again before you attack me. Get lost.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozu View Post
    If you asked the various populations that pushed for mass genocide in history, I'm sure they would argue that mass genocide is good, yes.
    You are confusing, like most, objectivity with absolute facts. By it's very definition, objectivity is an opinion - just void of any personal feelings or bias. You all need to go back to school.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    I didn't make any comparison, the fact that you think it was a comparison explains why the rest of your post is also wrong.
    Nope, it's not. Classic rotations aren't objectively bad. Prove me wrong.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Goat View Post
    I'm sorry, where did I say they were? Maybe read my post again before you attack me. Get lost.
    Literally in the post I linked. You said "opinion, not fact". Jesus.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    No I gave many details that explain why retail rotations are better than classic rotations, stop acting like I said nothing.
    Right, all of which were your opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    Then why did you even bring up murder if that wasn't in the discussion? Oh yeah, because all you do is make shit up cuz you have nothing of value to add to this discussion.
    Wait, are you really trying to turn this back on me instead of speaking to the clear mistake on your part? Interesting.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    That's entirely explained in the post you replied to. Did you read it at all?

    The ret of your post got snipped because it was not worth replying to, I explained all of that already in a previous post. This is not a real life conversation, you can go back and see what people wrote so you don't jump in saying wrong stuff.
    Okay, pretend the post doesn't exist.

    I read your post. It's just a bunch of meaningless word salad that comes full circle when you say, "Classic rotations are objectively bad." Which is not true.

    For someone feigning this much intelligence, you sure fucked up your monologue. Classic rotations aren't objectively bad. Prove me wrong.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Literally in the post I linked. You said "opinion, not fact". Jesus.
    So, where did I say objectivity is fact? Are you this dumb? Because that's nowhere in the post you linked.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Goat View Post
    Nope, it's not. Classic rotations aren't objectively bad. Prove me wrong.
    They lack any diversity or difficulty, and revolve around pressing one key over and over again. They lower the skill ceiling until it meets the floor, and take away the ability for a player to improve and grow.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    They lack any diversity or difficulty, and revolve around pressing one key over and over again. They lower the skill ceiling until it meets the floor, and take away the ability for a player to improve and grow.
    That still doesn't make them objectively bad. Prove me wrong. The adjective you're looking for is "easy", which is a more valid opinion than "bad".

    What's easy for you may be difficult for others. That alone makes what you just said subjective, because you're accounting that for your skill cap, they must be easy for everyone. Wrong again, Bobby.
    Last edited by Black Goat; 2020-01-17 at 10:58 PM.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Goat View Post
    That still doesn't make them objectively bad. Prove me wrong. The adjective you're looking for is "easy", which is a more valid opinion than "bad".

    What's easy for you may be difficult for others. That alone makes what you just said subjective, because you're accounting that for your skill cap, they must be easy for everyone. Wrong again, Bobby.
    Standing still and pressing 1 key for 45 seconds is difficult for some? You would have to stretch to disabilities before that could even remotely be applicable. Why are you trying to throw insults in now? is it because you can feel it slipping away?

    Hasbro make a game called "Simon". It has 4 colours. It starts off simple, just one colour. You repeat that colour. Then the pattern slowly increases in difficulty and it challenges your memory and your dexterity. I wonder why it doesnt just have one button, and you just have to sit there pressing it for hours on end......

    No where did i account for MY skill, not once. I said that having zero gap between the ceiling and floor is terrible game design. Thats probably why the changed it 2 years in and never once returned to such simple class design.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2020-01-17 at 11:08 PM.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Standing still and pressing 1 key for 45 seconds is difficult for some? You would have to stretch to disabilities before that could even remotely be applicable. Why are you trying to throw insults in now? is it because you can feel it slipping away?

    Hasbro make a game called "Simon". It has 4 colours. It starts off simple, just one colour. You repeat that colour. Then the pattern slowly increases in difficulty and it challenges your memory and your dexterity. I wonder why it doesnt just have one button, and you just have to sit there pressing it for hours on end......

    No where did i account for MY skill, not once. I said that having zero gap between the ceiling and floor is terrible game design. Thats probably why the changed it 2 years in and never once returned to such simple class design.
    Except for pressing 1 key for 45 seconds is not applicable to all classes, and that's disingenuous. You know that, or at least I hope you do.

    So you're supporting your argument on a lie. I have better things to do than argue with someone who will lie and exaggerate the truth to feel they've won an argument. Where did I insult you any more or less than when you told me to go back to school, hm? You realized you were wrong, and I suppose that's why you haven't responded to that post.

    You're wrong here, too. Having zero gap between the ceiling and floor is "terrible game design"? That's your opinion. In case you haven't noticed, Classic is hugely popular right now. People sure do love this "terrible game design" you speak of. Probably because it's not terrible to everyone, indicative that it's simply your opinion that it's terrible.

    Neither of you have indicated to me how the rotations are objectively bad, void of your feelings and/or bias. I'm starting to think you can't. With that being said, I think my point is proven.

  17. #157
    Classic rotations were boring and bad why are you even trying to argue this. Even the people that love Classic the most would admit to rotations being shit lol

  18. #158
    Brewmaster CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    The Depths Bellow
    Posts
    1,325
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozu View Post
    Right, all of which were your opinions.
    Wait, are you really trying to turn this back on me instead of speaking to the clear mistake on your part? Interesting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Goat View Post
    Okay, pretend the post doesn't exist.

    I read your post. It's just a bunch of meaningless word salad that comes full circle when you say, "Classic rotations are objectively bad." Which is not true.

    For someone feigning this much intelligence, you sure fucked up your monologue. Classic rotations aren't objectively bad. Prove me wrong.

    So, where did I say objectivity is fact? Are you this dumb? Because that's nowhere in the post you linked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Here’s the big issue to me, as someone who hates misuse of “objective” - how does throwing “objective” on a statement make your argument more convincing? All you’re really saying is “don’t argue with me”. Claiming your opinion is objective is you not even realizing that people can have other opinions, in a sense denying your own subjectivity. It’s kind of ridiculous honestly. This forum is full of people who are like “I CAN BE OBJECTIVE BECAUSE I AM THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE AND HOW COULD ANYONE DISAGREE”!

    To your own little point: if you’ve got a medical emergency or some other issue, then there are certainly cases where running a red light is good. What’s objectively true in that case is that running red light breaks the law. Whether that’s good or bad is subjective.
    There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about the gigantic difference between "better" and "more fun" so I'm gonna make this post to explain how they are the difference between subjectivity and objectivity.

    Someone tells you it's better to eat an apple than to eat a celery.
    You say you prefer the taste of celery.
    That's fine, it's what you prefer. That's the subjectivity.
    An apple still has more nutrient, it's a objectively a better food than celery even if you prefer the taste of celery.

    Now let's put that in the context of rotation.

    Someone tells you retail rotations are better than classic rotations.
    You say you have more fun with classic rotations.
    That's fine, it's what you prefer. That's the subjectivity.
    Retail rotations have more intricacies, synergy, diversity and player engagement, that's objectively better even if you prefer the simplicity of classic rotations.

    Notice in my previous posts I never made any mention of retail rotations being more FUN, "better" and "fun" are 2 entirely different things. You can have your fun with anything you want. I'm not saying you should stop enjoying classic rotations. I'm not even saying that I think classic rotations are less fun. All of those are subjective, because appreciation (fun) is subjective. The technical aspects that make retail rotations better, however, are not subjective.

    I'm saying that when you consider the technical aspects of game design that make a rotation better, then you can understand which one is better, YOU MAY STILL NOT ENJOY THE BETTER ROTATION, BECAUSE BETTER DOES NOT MEAN MORE FUN TO YOU (just like more fun to you does not mean it's better, quality is unrelated to appreciation). This applies to basically everything. There's plenty of things in life that I enjoy even while understanding they are not better than the other thing, that's the duality between subjectivity and objectivity. Everything in the world has 2 states for each person, one is the natural reality of things (objectivity) and the other is that person's perspective of things (subjectivity). These 2 states can coexist in perfect harmony even if they are opposite, they can also be the same either through ignorance or knowledge of the subject.
    Last edited by CrawlFromThePit; 2020-01-17 at 11:33 PM.
    Cure cancer, delete factions.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Broken Fox View Post
    Classic rotations were boring and bad why are you even trying to argue this. Even the people that love Classic the most would admit to rotations being shit lol
    Wrong. Did you ask all those millions of people? Extremely doubtful.

    Simple =/= bad.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about the gigantic difference between "better" and "more fun" so I'm gonna make this post to explain how they are the difference between subjectivity and objectivity.

    Someone tells you it's better to eat an apple than to eat a celery.
    You say you prefer the taste of celery.
    That's fine, it's what you prefer. That's the subjectivity.
    An apple still has more nutrient, it's a objectively a better food than celery even if you prefer the taste of celery.
    Your entire basis of this is just false. You could be going for a specific nutrient that celery has more of than apples, thus making celery "better" than apples for that context.

    Yet again, you refuse to admit context changes whether something is better or worse.

    Rotations having more intricacies, synergy, diversity and player engagement is not objectively better. Period.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •