It's been months, and I still can't bear to play classic

[Black Goat]

Objectivity is not the same thing as a fact. Before attacking someone, maybe do 15 seconds of research into a subject. You will find how wrong you are almost immediately.

I'm sorry, where did I say they were? Maybe read my post again before you attack me. Get lost.

[arkanon]

If you asked the various populations that pushed for mass genocide in history, I'm sure they would argue that mass genocide is good, yes.

You are confusing, like most, objectivity with absolute facts. By it's very definition, objectivity is an opinion - just void of any personal feelings or bias. You all need to go back to school.

[Black Goat]

I didn't make any comparison, the fact that you think it was a comparison explains why the rest of your post is also wrong.

Nope, it's not. Classic rotations aren't objectively bad. Prove me wrong.

[arkanon]

I'm sorry, where did I say they were? Maybe read my post again before you attack me. Get lost.

Literally in the post I linked. You said "opinion, not fact". Jesus.

[Mozu]

No I gave many details that explain why retail rotations are better than classic rotations, stop acting like I said nothing.

Right, all of which were your opinions.

Then why did you even bring up murder if that wasn't in the discussion? Oh yeah, because all you do is make shit up cuz you have nothing of value to add to this discussion.

Wait, are you really trying to turn this back on me instead of speaking to the clear mistake on your part? Interesting.

[Black Goat]

That's entirely explained in the post you replied to. Did you read it at all?

The ret of your post got snipped because it was not worth replying to, I explained all of that already in a previous post. This is not a real life conversation, you can go back and see what people wrote so you don't jump in saying wrong stuff.

Okay, pretend the post doesn't exist.

I read your post. It's just a bunch of meaningless word salad that comes full circle when you say, "Classic rotations are objectively bad." Which is not true.

For someone feigning this much intelligence, you sure fucked up your monologue. Classic rotations aren't objectively bad. Prove me wrong.

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Literally in the post I linked. You said "opinion, not fact". Jesus.

So, where did I say objectivity is fact? Are you this dumb? Because that's nowhere in the post you linked.

[arkanon]

Nope, it's not. Classic rotations aren't objectively bad. Prove me wrong.

They lack any diversity or difficulty, and revolve around pressing one key over and over again. They lower the skill ceiling until it meets the floor, and take away the ability for a player to improve and grow.

[Black Goat]

They lack any diversity or difficulty, and revolve around pressing one key over and over again. They lower the skill ceiling until it meets the floor, and take away the ability for a player to improve and grow.

That still doesn't make them objectively bad. Prove me wrong. The adjective you're looking for is "easy", which is a more valid opinion than "bad".

What's easy for you may be difficult for others. That alone makes what you just said subjective, because you're accounting that for your skill cap, they must be easy for everyone. Wrong again, Bobby.

[arkanon]

That still doesn't make them objectively bad. Prove me wrong. The adjective you're looking for is "easy", which is a more valid opinion than "bad".

What's easy for you may be difficult for others. That alone makes what you just said subjective, because you're accounting that for your skill cap, they must be easy for everyone. Wrong again, Bobby.

Standing still and pressing 1 key for 45 seconds is difficult for some? You would have to stretch to disabilities before that could even remotely be applicable. Why are you trying to throw insults in now? is it because you can feel it slipping away?

Hasbro make a game called "Simon". It has 4 colours. It starts off simple, just one colour. You repeat that colour. Then the pattern slowly increases in difficulty and it challenges your memory and your dexterity. I wonder why it doesnt just have one button, and you just have to sit there pressing it for hours on end......

No where did i account for MY skill, not once. I said that having zero gap between the ceiling and floor is terrible game design. Thats probably why the changed it 2 years in and never once returned to such simple class design.

[Black Goat]

Standing still and pressing 1 key for 45 seconds is difficult for some? You would have to stretch to disabilities before that could even remotely be applicable. Why are you trying to throw insults in now? is it because you can feel it slipping away?

Hasbro make a game called "Simon". It has 4 colours. It starts off simple, just one colour. You repeat that colour. Then the pattern slowly increases in difficulty and it challenges your memory and your dexterity. I wonder why it doesnt just have one button, and you just have to sit there pressing it for hours on end......

No where did i account for MY skill, not once. I said that having zero gap between the ceiling and floor is terrible game design. Thats probably why the changed it 2 years in and never once returned to such simple class design.

Except for pressing 1 key for 45 seconds is not applicable to all classes, and that's disingenuous. You know that, or at least I hope you do.

So you're supporting your argument on a lie. I have better things to do than argue with someone who will lie and exaggerate the truth to feel they've won an argument. Where did I insult you any more or less than when you told me to go back to school, hm? You realized you were wrong, and I suppose that's why you haven't responded to that post.

You're wrong here, too. Having zero gap between the ceiling and floor is "terrible game design"? That's your opinion. In case you haven't noticed, Classic is hugely popular right now. People sure do love this "terrible game design" you speak of. Probably because it's not terrible to everyone, indicative that it's simply your opinion that it's terrible.

Neither of you have indicated to me how the rotations are objectively bad, void of your feelings and/or bias. I'm starting to think you can't. With that being said, I think my point is proven.

[Broken Fox]

Classic rotations were boring and bad why are you even trying to argue this. Even the people that love Classic the most would admit to rotations being shit lol

[CrawlFromThePit]

Right, all of which were your opinions.
Wait, are you really trying to turn this back on me instead of speaking to the clear mistake on your part? Interesting.

Okay, pretend the post doesn't exist.

I read your post. It's just a bunch of meaningless word salad that comes full circle when you say, "Classic rotations are objectively bad." Which is not true.

For someone feigning this much intelligence, you sure fucked up your monologue. Classic rotations aren't objectively bad. Prove me wrong.

So, where did I say objectivity is fact? Are you this dumb? Because that's nowhere in the post you linked.

Here’s the big issue to me, as someone who hates misuse of “objective” - how does throwing “objective” on a statement make your argument more convincing? All you’re really saying is “don’t argue with me”. Claiming your opinion is objective is you not even realizing that people can have other opinions, in a sense denying your own subjectivity. It’s kind of ridiculous honestly. This forum is full of people who are like “I CAN BE OBJECTIVE BECAUSE I AM THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE AND HOW COULD ANYONE DISAGREE”!

To your own little point: if you’ve got a medical emergency or some other issue, then there are certainly cases where running a red light is good. What’s objectively true in that case is that running red light breaks the law. Whether that’s good or bad is subjective.

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about the gigantic difference between "better" and "more fun" so I'm gonna make this post to explain how they are the difference between subjectivity and objectivity.

Someone tells you it's better to eat an apple than to eat a celery.
You say you prefer the taste of celery.
That's fine, it's what you prefer. That's the subjectivity.
An apple still has more nutrient, it's a objectively a better food than celery even if you prefer the taste of celery.

Now let's put that in the context of rotation.

Someone tells you retail rotations are better than classic rotations.
You say you have more fun with classic rotations.
That's fine, it's what you prefer. That's the subjectivity.
Retail rotations have more intricacies, synergy, diversity and player engagement, that's objectively better even if you prefer the simplicity of classic rotations.

Notice in my previous posts I never made any mention of retail rotations being more FUN, "better" and "fun" are 2 entirely different things. You can have your fun with anything you want. I'm not saying you should stop enjoying classic rotations. I'm not even saying that I think classic rotations are less fun. All of those are subjective, because appreciation (fun) is subjective. The technical aspects that make retail rotations better, however, are not subjective.

I'm saying that when you consider the technical aspects of game design that make a rotation better, then you can understand which one is better, YOU MAY STILL NOT ENJOY THE BETTER ROTATION, BECAUSE BETTER DOES NOT MEAN MORE FUN TO YOU (just like more fun to you does not mean it's better, quality is unrelated to appreciation). This applies to basically everything. There's plenty of things in life that I enjoy even while understanding they are not better than the other thing, that's the duality between subjectivity and objectivity. Everything in the world has 2 states for each person, one is the natural reality of things (objectivity) and the other is that person's perspective of things (subjectivity). These 2 states can coexist in perfect harmony even if they are opposite, they can also be the same either through ignorance or knowledge of the subject.

[Black Goat]

Classic rotations were boring and bad why are you even trying to argue this. Even the people that love Classic the most would admit to rotations being shit lol

Wrong. Did you ask all those millions of people? Extremely doubtful.

Simple =/= bad.

[Mozu]

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about the gigantic difference between "better" and "more fun" so I'm gonna make this post to explain how they are the difference between subjectivity and objectivity.

Someone tells you it's better to eat an apple than to eat a celery.
You say you prefer the taste of celery.
That's fine, it's what you prefer. That's the subjectivity.
An apple still has more nutrient, it's a objectively a better food than celery even if you prefer the taste of celery.

Your entire basis of this is just false. You could be going for a specific nutrient that celery has more of than apples, thus making celery "better" than apples for that context.

Yet again, you refuse to admit context changes whether something is better or worse.

Rotations having more intricacies, synergy, diversity and player engagement is not objectively better. Period.

[antelope591]

Classic works for a few reasons. One, it gives you clear goals to chase. You know where your BiS drops and what you have to do to farm it. This is clearly a very popular model even to this day as gear is the main reason a lot of people play MMO's. The RNG and convulted gearing system in retail turns a lot of people off. Secondly, the ironic reason is that classic is a much more laid back and chill environment in group content. You can clear the raids easily in little time and without feeling the pressure of performing 100% or you wipe. The multi day mythic raiding model is simply not attractive to a lot of people in this gaming era. M+ at high level are similarly pretty cutthroat which turns people off. I quit classic since I did all this back in the day and doing it all again wasn't appealing to me. But I can see it for people who didn't play it back when.

[threads]

don't worry i can't get into classic either. every time i try to level i have this weird feeling that i'm wasting my time cause it's basically a game that's a dead end.

[Black Goat]

*snip*

Once again, a bunch of words that don't explain anything more than your personal feelings towards Classic rotations and Retail rotations. You're attempting to delicately dance around with all these paragraphs, when all you're saying is that you think because Retail rotations are more complex and synergized, they are objectively better.

That's wrong.

More buttons, more synergy... none of that means "better". It means it flows well, sure. It means the buttons have more meaning, and if executed properly, the reward will be more satisfying. But none of it means "better".

To you, it's better. To you it feels better for those buttons to have synergy and complexity. But that's not true for everyone. It still stands, that no matter how many words you type, the Classic rotations are not objectively bad. They're just easy, or simpler. I don't understand why you have to call it bad when all you mean is it's simpler.

Clocking out, this is a ridiculous topic.

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Rotations having more intricacies, synergy, diversity and player engagement is not objectively better. Period.

This guy gets it. Whew, someone does, at least!

[arkanon]

Classic rotations were boring and bad why are you even trying to argue this. Even the people that love Classic the most would admit to rotations being shit lol

Because the mind blowing level of fanboism from a handful of classic fans leaves them incapable of admitting any flaws. They are so emotionally invested in the game, they genuinely cannot accept any constructive criticism of it. Most of us who enjoy classic are capable of admitting the rotations are completely terrible, just beyond shit, and that is why no other mmo or games in general have returned to such a braindead format.

[Zeppelin67]

I play on Westfall in classic. Great server. We have 3 40 man teams with subs. That's at least 140 raiders. Tell me again how retail compares? We are a gaming community that loves each others company. Retail at its best never had this.

[arkanon]

Let me reducto ad absurdum your argument. You're saying that rotations with more intricacies are always better. So then you're saying that a rotation with 1000 intricacies is better than one with 100? A rotation with a million is better than 1000? Let's add 10 billion randomly generated talents that all interact with each other, that's got to be better!

At the end of the day, your argument reduces to yourself arrogantly claiming that your opinions cannot be disagreed with because you are able to be entirely impartial, hilariously ignoring the fact that people are disagreeing with you.

How ironic. You clearly got your definition from google, without a doubt - i am absolutely, 100% confident you googled that. You know how im so confident? you completely murdered the grammar in that first sentence, what an utter disgrace. The second hint is that even though you got the definition from google, you literally used it as a defense. Intentionally using a logical fallacy, and even naming the fallacy for everyone, is not a good way to build a strong argument.

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I play on Westfall in classic. Great server. We have 3 40 man teams with subs. That's at least 140 raiders. Tell me again how retail compares? We are a gaming community that loves each others company. Retail at its best never had this.

Well actually mr burner account, clearly the alt account of someone in this thread - that is at least 122 raiders, not 140. An argument could be made for 126. The real irony here is that classic was retail at one stage, as was bc, and wrath - both more successful iterations of wow. The classic community is killing itself, its so funny to watch.