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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Drusin View Post
    Let's say there's no cars in the world. Then let's say cars are invented and they are fucking great, they look nice and run well. Now let's say I "upgrade" the cars and they are a bit worse than the original. People bitch, and I'm like alright my bad, then I fix what was wrong but only just enough, not as good as the original. One person says "why won't Drusin fix these shitty cars?" and another person says "what are you talking about? He did fix the cars, they are much better than they were".

    This is the same thing, no one gives a fuck how good the current system is, it's not as good as it was originally.
    You seem to have missed the entire point.

    I don't think the system is good. I said the system was easy. I never equated one with the other. All I said was that alts are still easy to level, and that one patch that slows their progress marginally (and that's arguable) does not mean that the devs do not want us to have alts, nor does it mean they expect us to devote our entire lifetimes to one character. His post was incredibly hyperbolic, and the implication behind mine was that since alts have been easy for years it's absurd to say that the devs feel they way he said they must.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRainman View Post
    You seem to have missed the entire point.

    I don't think the system is good. I said the system was easy. I never equated one with the other.
    I didn't say you did the example was just to illustrate the line of thinking. I'll modify it to reflect

    Let's say there's no easy to drive cars in the world. Then let's say easy to drive cars are invented. Now let's say I "upgrade" the cars and they are a bit harder to drive. People bitch, and I'm like alright my bad, then I make them easier to drive but only just enough, not as easy as the original. One person says "why won't Drusin make these cars easier to drive?" and another person says "what are you talking about, he did? They are much easier to drive than they were".

    They are easier to drive than they were but they aren't as easy as they were at their easiest
    Last edited by Drusin; 2020-01-19 at 11:04 AM.
    - Bring back my damn zoom distance/MoP Portals - I read OP minimum, 1st page maximum-make wow alt friendly again -Please post constructively(topkek) -updated 2/8/2019

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by dagganoolin View Post
    The devs just do not simply understand why people play alts. They want you to commit all your lifetime to play one char only, and build their whole univese around this bias.
    And stupid people still haven’t figured out that they value you having reasons to spend time playing the game above all else. They want those subscriptions active.

    Progression being separate on all characters forces you to spend more time on the game.

    I literally can not rationalize why subscriptions exist, especially with this last garbage fire of a patch, but they do.
    Last edited by Mojo03; 2020-01-19 at 11:20 AM.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRainman View Post
    What? It's been incredibly easy and fast to gear alts and it has been for YEARS. Even this patch, where arguments stand that it is harder than before...is still way easier and more efficient to gear alts than it was in the beginning. A slow step backwards doesn't mean all of a sudden it's hard. Let alone that the devs don't take alts into consideration... let alone "They want you to commit all your lifetime to play one char only, and build their whole univese around this bias."
    Gearing alts was never really the issue, that could always easily be fixed by getting boosted. The problem is with things like AP, legiondaries, essences, WoD ring, MoP cloak, and reputations, although some of those had decent catchup(legiondaries for basically the entire expansion and essences being the 2 that really didn't/don't)
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  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    Progression being separate on all characters forces you to spend more time on the game.
    I've been playing wow since 2pm saturday, it's 6am now, not sleepy so I'll probably be on till like 9 I guess, I can't really play more than I play now
    - Bring back my damn zoom distance/MoP Portals - I read OP minimum, 1st page maximum-make wow alt friendly again -Please post constructively(topkek) -updated 2/8/2019

  6. #66
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    I have two mains. One on each faction. That's it.

    I view those that have created a dozen alts--and they are usually very proud of that--that complain about how Blizzard is fucking them over for having so many alts as good theater.

    I'm all for opening all professions up to any character that wants to take them. That way purely profession alts could go away. Personally I'm onboard with any system at all that reduces the incentives to have a dozen or so alts.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2020-01-19 at 11:20 AM.
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  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I have two mains. One on each faction. That's it.

    I view those that have created a dozen alts--and they are usually very proud of that--that complain about how Blizzard is fucking them over for having so many alts as good theater.

    I'm all for opening all professions up to any character that wants to take them. That way purely profession alts could go away. Personally I'm onboard with any system at all that reduces the incentives to have a dozen or so alts.
    So adding more depth to every spec/class, balancing the game significantly better and no longer making big changes to how specs play?
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  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    There's a reason one toon is considered your main and the others are called alts. Hint: it's not because they're equally as strong.
    And that's where FF14 trumps over WoW, you get access to everything from just playing your one character... Progress/Classes/Crafts/whatever. Which is a fantastic idea.

    The having to re-do very time consuming grinds again is a complete turn off for a lot of people.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Drusin View Post
    I've been playing wow since 2pm saturday, it's 6am now, not sleepy so I'll probably be on till like 9 I guess, I can't really play more than I play now
    Okay so if you do that repeatedly on one character and you’re a sane human, you’re eventually going to run out of things to do and spend that time elsewhere. If you have multiple characters it will take longer.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    Okay so if you do that repeatedly on one character and you’re a sane human, you’re eventually going to run out of things to do and spend that time elsewhere. If you have multiple characters it will take longer.
    Maybe, depends on how much content you are consuming because Blizz will still be adding content. I did the math and for me to "100%" the All the Things addon it will take 17 years assuming in those 17 years Blizz adds nothing new.

    But 100%ing is well beyond "sane human" lol.
    - Bring back my damn zoom distance/MoP Portals - I read OP minimum, 1st page maximum-make wow alt friendly again -Please post constructively(topkek) -updated 2/8/2019

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    Progression being separate on all characters forces you to spend more time on the game.
    Reality is that the content we talk about is not really replayable at a large scale, so instead of playing an alt they rather skip that. And unsub.

    An alt should not need you to replay everything, but to play a class having access to the achievements and reputations you already farmed with the first char.

    Playing an alt is additional content, and not meant to be the complete journey again and again. It is way enough if you have to gear your alts seperately. No need to let them refarm every bit of Azerite / Anima / Artefact power or whatever blizzard implements next as their big time gate sink.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    I literally can not rationalize why subscriptions exist, especially with this last garbage fire of a patch, but they do.
    Because the devs are all pissed the budget got cut and their friends were fired. Thats pure intention from Hazzikostas and crew how 8.3 was designed.
    Last edited by yogdadoolin; 2020-01-19 at 08:19 PM.

  12. #72
    Light comes from darkness shise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    Lol what?

    Alts are just something to play when you run out of things to do on your main, alts are not something you should focus on or even care what they become. They are supposed to be weaker and behind your main. You seem to expect your alt to be on par with your main by quitting your job, sell your kids and never see the sun because you have to farm AP and shit. That's not how the game is supposed to play at all.
    You are wrong.

    Alts are a way of playing for many. A lot of people can not find a main and so they focus development on a few chars at the same time.

  13. #73
    Bloodsail Admiral CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    You are wrong.

    Alts are a way of playing for many. A lot of people can not find a main and so they focus development on a few chars at the same time.
    Okay, so what? Still nothing in there that says all these toons have to be equally as strong/progressed by spending less time on them. That's wishful thinking and nothing more.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    And that's where FF14 trumps over WoW, you get access to everything from just playing your one character... Progress/Classes/Crafts/whatever. Which is a fantastic idea.

    The having to re-do very time consuming grinds again is a complete turn off for a lot of people.
    FF14 is offputting to a lot of people for the very same reason, the idea that class choice literally does not matter is not something 100% of players enjoy.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    That's what I was saying though. The very concept of mains and alts is outdated.

    Anyway, the point being that if a player has already done the work to unlock something as important as essences, and wants to switch their "main" focus to another character, it seems unnecessarily tedious(and in some cases alt-discouraging) to require that same level of grind again.

    Now...I'm not saying that every character in an account should get everything for free that the furthest progressed character has. But if we concede that alts are a valid, and important, part of the game, then it seems reasonable to include mechanics to facilitate them.

    Granted, Blizzard has a vested interest in getting players to spend as much time playing as possible. But there needs to be a better balance struck between increasing that time via repetitive grinds(essences as they are now)and increasing that time with alt-friendly mechanics(such as account wide essences) that would keep altaholics playing.
    I think it's mostly a problem of rep grind being the real outdated concept here. Not only that but it's worse today than it was before since it's impossible to farm or invest time in it, we're just forced to stop getting rep after doing X and Y everyday. It's straight up bullshit. If we could just get rep from dungeons people would get their essences as they play for gear on their alt and everything would unlock at the same time instead of being forced to do terrible obsolete content to get something that is designed to be part of the class.
    Cure cancer, delete factions.

  14. #74
    I play alts because I enjoy variety in the gameplay, if I only played my main I would get bored out of my mind - playing alts allows the game to have more longevity. The issue in BFA is that there are so many hoops to go through to make your alts "viable", which is super demotivating when you enjoy playing different classes but dont want to spend eons farming the same things for the umptieth time.
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    You are missing one key thing. The game basically pushes you to level alts these days, there are objective, measurable and tangible benefits from having as many alts as possible. From moneymaking, through mount and transmog farming, to raiding with multiple classes and of course split raiding for the cutting edge raiders. The whole game design pushes people to keep alts relevant.
    Alts have been very helpful for farming rare stuff since forever. Back when the horseman's mount was new (and the brewfest kodo) having a bunch friends, all with a bunch of alts meant you could get a lot of chances at the mount for each person's main.

    I think one thing is that the reason people have alts has changed over the years. Aside from people who want a variety of characters for RP purposes, which has always been a thing, that is.

    Early alts seemed to mostly to fill in profession gaps, like levelling a herbalist/alchemist because your main was a BS/miner and you didn't want to lose all the rare patterns by swapping, or levelling a miner so your main could be a BS/Engineer. These alts didn't need to level to the end game once they got to a point where they could end-game gathering and/or crafting, and certainly didn't need flash gear (aside from large bags), so crafted and random green drops (remember when a green drop with good stats meant something?) were good enough. They didn't need attunements either - until you discovered that the new flask recipe was inside the new raid. The awful state of most crafting professions in the last few expacs (including this one) has killed this, and BfA requiring BoP raid components in great quantities to make BoP gear has really done a number on this (along with punishing characters that have the 'wrong' professions for their class - or it would if the gear was worth the effort).

    Next we got alts to fill spots missing in a raid, or to allow more dungeon runs in your guild by filling a tank or healer spot, but not seriously enough to make them a 'new main'. I saw a lot of these in late BC, because there were reasonable catch-up mechanisms (gear purchasable by currency from heroics and Kara, and by grinding BGs and by doing your ten arenas a week). Also, the amount of improvement you could do for your main was capped by raid lockouts, the limited number of dailies, and so on. So, if you were going to be online hanging with your guild, you might as well work on and alt, use an alt to gather and craft, or use an alt to help run guildies through dungeons and stuff if the alt might get something from it and the main wouldn't.

    Then, from sometime in LK on, levelling became easy enough that it was worth levelling a class just to see if you liked it, or to 'collect' characters, or for something to do, and you could gear them well enough for alt runs and pug runs through raids in LK (not so much in Cata, which declared that heroics were 'serious business' and decided that you needed to gear in them to raid).

    I had a whole bunch of alts that I levelled over time in LK through to Legion, though some I did very little with in some expacs. Getting them their weapons and a few interesting transmogs was great fun in Legion, even if I never intended to play them seriously. Sneaking around pick-pocketting people in WoD and Legion on my Rogue was entertaining. These days, I look at the ones I have levelled and wonder why I bothered. I don't actually like levelling much after the first couple of times through content, yet it was more fun than having them at max level. Basically, all they are good for now is stuff I can do on a main anyway, so I may as well pick the character I like most (or has the highest numbers, or that people want in a group most, or whatever) and play them all the time.

    I think that lack of meaningful hard caps on stuff is one of the major issues. When there's a hard cap of 2k Honor from PvP a week, X many heroic runs a week that give decent rewards, etc., once you hit the caps on your main, you might as well play and alt. Also, it makes smaller catchups easy to arrange - just have the cap on total currency earned raise from week to week, so if you're a bit behind you can grind out currency until you catch up. Also, if there are caps, we don't need what we have now, where the WQs are often junk by themselves, and almost all the value is in the emissary's offering, because there's no hard limit on how many WQs you can do on a character.

  16. #76
    I cannot concieve WoW anymore without having multiple alts.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    Good thing about FF14 is you can play every class and profession with one character.
    Just as well given that you have to do the main questline all the way through on each character that you want to have at the endgame. I like many things about FFXIV, but it is not at all alt-friendly.

  18. #78
    I don't have alts and most people I know don't have alts (at least on appropriate level to play). I used to have an alt in WotLK as it was an very alt-friendly expansion but never since then.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    I think it's mostly a problem of rep grind being the real outdated concept here. Not only that but it's worse today than it was before since it's impossible to farm or invest time in it, we're just forced to stop getting rep after doing X and Y everyday. It's straight up bullshit. If we could just get rep from dungeons people would get their essences as they play for gear on their alt and everything would unlock at the same time instead of being forced to do terrible obsolete content to get something that is designed to be part of the class.
    That's definitely a good point.

    IMO, it's a product of Blizzard attempting to pad the amount of time it takes to complete various objectives. And, in some ways more important to them, the ability to PREDICT how much time it's going to take players to complete those objectives. This is a clear result of the monthly sub model, and a result of the influence that the mobile game design is having on the gaming industry as a whole: Get them to log in every day, establish the habit, lock in the investment(emotional or otherwise), then exploit.

    I know that formula isn't as prevalent as it could be, and I'm thankful for that. But for anyone who's been watching the progress of the gaming industry for, the past 5 years or so, can see the increasing trend. It's unfortunate, because I believe that this is causing the degradation of the quality and enjoyment that should be possible in WoW. Instead of being a game where a player goes on an adventure, it's about a player logging in each day and ticking boxes on a checklist like it's a job.

    Naysayers will undoubtedly say that there's always been that sort of thing in WoW, and I would be forced to agree. But where I see a problem is with how much of that is put in the game.

  20. #80
    so basically people want

    content that's deep and meaningful and progresses your character at max level.............. that is completely inconsequential and meaningless so you can play alts

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