People call DH a brain-dead class become of Demon Blades

[Unholyground]

Honestly, I find tanking to be the most brain dead. The only challenging thing in WoW right now is healing tbh.

It amazes me that bad tanks and dps even exist.

The only challenging healer to play is Discipline Priest and that is only because they designed atonement poorly, it should just be an aura.

[fwc577]

The only challenging healer to play is Discipline Priest and that is only because they designed atonement poorly, it should just be an aura.

I really only call healing hard because the DPS and tanks tend to always be retarded when I'm healing. It really doesn't matter which DPS or tank I play, I just don't take a ton of damage compared to everyone else and I don't understand it. Meanwhile, whenever I heal, everyone tends to drop like a rock and doesn't even bother trying to avoid mechanics (it seems).

[Unholyground]

I really only call healing hard because the DPS and tanks tend to always be retarded when I'm healing. It really doesn't matter which DPS or tank I play, I just don't take a ton of damage compared to everyone else and I don't understand it. Meanwhile, whenever I heal, everyone tends to drop like a rock and doesn't even bother trying to avoid mechanics (it seems).

A lot of people don't know how to manage their tank cooldowns properly is the big issue I think.

[Kaver]

Carefully read the context of what I said:

The point was that many classes can perform at a similar level of DPS as the demon hunter, but not with the same level of ease while also having the same level of mobility. I'm sure there's plenty of specs that can outperform the DH in any one category....but not with the same levels in the others.

And even more important: Survivability.
Havoc got crazy selfsustain for a dps spec and can avoid a lot of damage just by doing the basic dps rotation. On top of that Versatility is the best stat so it’s possible to stack versa gems on every piece of gear which increase survivability even further.

DH can just do everything and do it with ease. The only downsides of a DH are the fact that it’s melee and don’t have a misdirect. Other than that DH got absolutely no downsides. Sure you can play Arms warrior and push out a little bit more damage but then you’ll lose TONS of utility, mobility and survivability. And no extra dps is worth losing that for.

[ulululu]

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And even more important: Survivability.
Havoc got crazy selfsustain for a dps spec and can avoid a lot of damage just by doing the basic dps rotation. On top of that Versatility is the best stat so it’s possible to stack versa gems on every piece of gear which increase survivability even further.

DH can just do everything and do it with ease. The only downsides of a DH are the fact that it’s melee and don’t have a misdirect. Other than that DH got absolutely no downsides. Sure you can play Arms warrior and push out a little bit more damage but then you’ll lose TONS of utility, mobility and survivability. And no extra dps is worth losing that for.

And thats on how you properly analyze class/specc-standings. Additionally to the ridiculously low skillcap of Havoc compared to other melee speccs like SV hunter while having a much higher dps potential without having to play it as good; + otherworldy survivability + exceptional toolkit + unlimited mobility. You can literally off tank ~+21ish tyrannical bosses (KR - Dazar, Blade Combo into lolmode) for considerable amount of time. Well. That's exactly what happened here, boss was at around ~20% when our tank got the -5 seconds debuff, the rest is history.

[ClassicPeon]

I play havoc as main atm. I usually like the more complex specs but i recently got back from a hiatus and i wanted an easy time getting all the +15 keys(not easy as in gameplay, easy as in havoc is strong for m+ so its easier to find groups).

There are two things i dislike about the spec.

1. Its gcd locked and you have a lot of haste most of the time because of specific trait choices(. This means spamming basicly every single second in combat. Some people like this, personally my fingers start hurting after a while.

2. The rotation feels rewarding for aoe because of the numbers on the screen, but its really quite boring for longer single target fights(a lot of raid encounters) because you will be spending a lot of time outside meta and demonic. WHen you arent in meta or demonic the spec is slowed down considerably which enhances the specs weakness, its simple rotation. Not only will you be slowed down, and aware of your(at this point) 3 button rotation, you will notice that your damage drops significantly and sort of feels like the destro 3 minute spec(which isnt good).

The aoe rotation is fine( especially with azerite beam) but the single target rotation could use some love.

[Kaver]

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And thats on how you properly analyze class/specc-standings. Additionally to the ridiculously low skillcap of Havoc compared to other melee speccs like SV hunter while having a much higher dps potential without having to play it as good; + otherworldy survivability + exceptional toolkit + unlimited mobility. You can literally off tank ~+21ish tyrannical bosses (KR - Dazar, Blade Combo into lolmode) for considerable amount of time. Well. That's exactly what happened here, boss was at around ~20% when our tank got the -5 seconds debuff, the rest is history.

Also if you look at raid fights, Havoc Demon Hunters often got a mitigation of 40 % of damage taken.... 40 %!... that's insane for a dps spec. It's on par with the damage mitigation of some tanks. In comparison other dps specs got damage mitigation of max 15 %. This is ridiculous. The damage mitigation of Havoc is absolutely ludicrous :P

[ClassicPeon]

Also if you look at raid fights, Havoc Demon Hunters often got a mitigation of 40 % of damage taken.... 40 %!... that's insane for a dps spec. It's on par with the damage mitigation of some tanks. In comparison other dps specs got damage mitigation of max 15 %. This is ridiculous. The damage mitigation of Havoc is absolutely ludicrous :P

Where are you seeing this?

Are you talking about mitigation or healing? I'm not seeing those numbers at all

[Kaver]

Where are you seeing this?

Are you talking about mitigation or healing? I'm not seeing those numbers at all

When looking at 'damage taken' you can see the % of mitigated damage. Look at the Demon Hunter in the example below.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...e=damage-taken

[ClassicPeon]

When looking at 'damage taken' you can see the % of mitigated damage. Look at the Demon Hunter in the example below.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...e=damage-taken

He has 30-40% damage mitigated because he is literally STACKING versatility. Its not because he is a demon hunter, its because he has an insane amount of damage reduction from vers.

[Mardux]

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And thats on how you properly analyze class/specc-standings. Additionally to the ridiculously low skillcap of Havoc compared to other melee speccs like SV hunter while having a much higher dps potential without having to play it as good; + otherworldy survivability + exceptional toolkit + unlimited mobility. You can literally off tank ~+21ish tyrannical bosses (KR - Dazar, Blade Combo into lolmode) for considerable amount of time. Well. That's exactly what happened here, boss was at around ~20% when our tank got the -5 seconds debuff, the rest is history.

That would be how you properly analyze a spec, IF they had based the analysis on correct information. But they didnt. They claimed vers is the best stat, its not. Its not even the best for havoc.

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Also if you look at raid fights, Havoc Demon Hunters often got a mitigation of 40 % of damage taken.... 40 %!... that's insane for a dps spec. It's on par with the damage mitigation of some tanks. In comparison other dps specs got damage mitigation of max 15 %. This is ridiculous. The damage mitigation of Havoc is absolutely ludicrous :P

Looked at raid fights. Unsurprisingly, they aren't stacking vers. They're either stacking stars or they're stacking lash and haste amps.

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When looking at 'damage taken' you can see the % of mitigated damage. Look at the Demon Hunter in the example below.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...e=damage-taken

Did you purposely search for a havoc parse showing the dh taking a bunch of avoidable damage and inflating their mitigation %? Also, why would you specifically choose a dh that dies to insanely easy to avoid mechanics early in the fight, if not to artificially inflate their mitigation %?

[LanToaster]

That would be how you properly analyze a spec, IF they had based the analysis on correct information. But they didnt. They claimed vers is the best stat, its not. Its not even the best for havoc.

Tell me Scrub DH then, which stat would be Better?

[ulululu]

When looking at 'damage taken' you can see the % of mitigated damage. Look at the Demon Hunter in the example below.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...e=damage-taken

Yeah, I'm pretty familiar with numbers in general; based on my mythic+ / mythic raid experience (playing pretty much competitive)

It's out of proportion and that's one thing they absolutely need to do something about and they have all the potential to do so. I mean, sure, no one wants to be punished for playing a spec that is fun to navigate mechanic-wise, like mobility of a god and dealing an absurd amount of dps while being as tanky as Chuck in his best years- additionally to a rotation you can key bind to your monitor adjustment buttons perfectly well - and I absolutely don't think this'd be productive at all but there are possibilities. Just approximate numbers to an adequate amount. For the purpose of not bringing in too much detail we'll leave it be without putting in corruption from current or covenant bonusses, legendary runeforge & other things to come into equasion. The game would feel so much better with a mindful and justified balance in all terms.

Hope I don't have to state that there surely has to be at least some difference in specific situations but they shouldn't be irrefutably significant in the decision which spec to pick for an entire environment. Keywords: high rated m+. Competition should base on diversity more, not repetition until one gets the best procc/rng ratio.

[ClassicPeon]

Babble.

you forgot to look at the posts after that

[ulululu]

you forgot to look at the posts after that

wait a minute so I can take them into consideration as well while giving them a more specific, personal answer?

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That would be how you properly analyze a spec, IF they had based the analysis on correct information. But they didnt. They claimed vers is the best stat, its not. Its not even the best for havoc.

I don't wanted to be number specific on this one, it was more of a statement that the occurrence on current standings often take out of consideration that there are values to consider that aren't recorded on performance charts and often forgot as they are quite basic in terms of expanded mechanical understanding.

In a way I presupposed number specific analysis, I was kind of only referring to the exact arguments made.

Specs are more complex than a perfect stat weight and minmaxed after mathematically determined conditions, as I said: the "without playing it as good" draws a relation. We may bring this to the maximum potential including every single aspect of objective performance analysis:

A perfectly played SV hunter with a much higher skillcap compared to a perfectly played DH with lower - on a immaculately minmaxed value level (BiS existence), let's say we have an 'even rng' as well: SV will by all means display outperformed by DH (focussing on the Maximum). In every environment. You have to be way better spec mechanically / performance wise to deal a certain amount of DH dps as SV hunter while you can reach that same amount of dps with just being, let's say slightly above average as DH. A perfect gameplay against above average yet the results don't differ. And that is taking out all the additional benefits that come with DH.

That was the argument, not "yeah but versatility is the correct choice for havoc and that's where the analysis is wrong."

To be exact this would of course be a much more bloated discussion, the parses highly differ, I just want to bring the full spectrum of balancing conditions into the equasion.

Having the DH benefit sure takes it's part in the context of balancing.

in eg: If you have to be twice as busy to maintain the same amount of "numerical performance" - while being punished twice as bad because the conditions your spec has to handle in a certain situation are being 50% harder to navigate through (movement, survivability, utility, you get the idearity)..

.. you may consider the spec you compare yourself to brain dead in a way. Don't know if that makes sense, don't mind if you disagree though, feel free to do so

[lollerlaban]

When looking at 'damage taken' you can see the % of mitigated damage. Look at the Demon Hunter in the example below.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...e=damage-taken

It's the versatility my man.

[Yarathir]

It's the versatility my man.

The DH-hateclub isn't sending their best.

[ohiostate124]

Nothing wrong with brain dead specs. Its really nice if you aren’t interested in doing the higher levels of content anymore and just want to chill and do some questing/collecting.

[Redlikemyrage]

Nothing wrong with brain dead specs. Its really nice if you aren’t interested in doing the higher levels of content anymore and just want to chill and do some questing/collecting.

There is, however, something wrong when the easiest spec in the game (which is already easy in general) is also a top choice for all levels on end game content.

Also, ezmode classes breed false heroes. People who spend time with an overtuned class think they are suddenly top performers. Reality slaps hard when the brain dead class gets nerfed into line.

You only need to look at how bad of a player your average DH tends to be to see this in action. It happens, without fault, every time a class remains unbalanced to this degree. It attracts wannabes and try hards, while also creating a mentality among players that this is acceptable. Once nerfing/proper tuning does finally happen, the solution is to QQ about it because there’s no longer an overtuned brain dead class to prop up poor play.

Anyone arguing that DH is fine and not imba at current is being intentionally obtuse. Or just willfully ignorant of facts. It’s not “feelycraft” even, as some have implied. DHs are objectively overtuned.

I, for one, can’t wait. It’s going to be as glorious as watching all the bad DK players have to face reality. Won’t miss it at all.

[Yarathir]

There is, however, something wrong when the easiest spec in the game (which is already easy in general) is also a top choice for all levels on end game content.

There would be something wrong with that.

If it was the case.