People call DH a brain-dead class become of Demon Blades

[Yarathir]

The point of my first post was to show the way the Havoc is uniquely simple at its most basic level in that no matter what situation you are in, you press the same buttons in essentially the same order.
That's without getting into the shitshow the talent 'choices' are.

I do agree that the argument that it is objectively bad because it is simple or that it's objectively bad because it's simple and has a history of performing well. Has no merit in of itself, fire mage isn't exactly feral druid tier and taste is subjective after all.


For the record, it was a single aoe ability and a whole extra CD.

I wouldn't say your argument really establishes its unique simplicity at all.

The thing is that for all the bellyaching about DHs, my point of comparison, that being the BM Hunter, is ranged. It has a pet to send in and it can just avoid many of the dangers that a melee user (like a Havoc DH) has to avoid or use a CD to defend from.

I don't think an extra CD really mitigates that.

Again, if you want to argue that DHs are simple, that's fine by me. But the "they are the only braindead class and they excel at anything without trying," notion is some tired, hysterical class recency bias in action. They aren't the best at everything without trying, they are adequate to good at everything without trying. A jack of all trades. But in individual activities, there are classes that surpass them.

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Imagine opening with meta and using blade dance pre EB

That too tbh.

[Saltysquidoon]

Imagine opening with meta and using blade dance pre EB, like i said, hardstuck heroic raiders, keep it up.

That was meant to be a vague priority list to highlight a design quirk with Havoc's baseline kit that leads people to believe it's 'brain dead', not an in-depth rotation accounting for azerite traits. The keen-eyed (and less booty-blasted) observer will note I also omitted essences and potions for reasons obvious on their face.

Edit; I also only included meta at all to head off people saying "but what about meta" which is why it's in asterisks.

[Frozenbro]

But in individual activities, there are classes that surpass them.

We are kings on M shadhar thanks to IS padding, clearly DHs are the best /s

[Yarathir]

We are kings on M shadhar thanks to IS padding, clearly DHs are the best /s

It seems like a lot of "Grr Demon Hunters are the new kids on the block and yet they dare to be viable while my class is in the gutter in my own professional opinion. Such gall. Bah humbug."

[Donatello Trumpi]

People calling DH simple but using weakauras and stuff on their other classes that tells them which button to press or remove most complexity of their classes ANYWAY.
The absurdity of this is immense.

[Saltysquidoon]

But the "they are the only braindead class and they excel at anything without trying," notion is some tired, hysterical class recency bias in action. They aren't the best at everything without trying, they are adequate to good at everything without trying. A jack of all trades. But in individual activities, there are classes that surpass them.

I think it's a confluence of factors both 'sides' are choosing to ignore.

• There is recency bias
• There is the 'hero class' meme (which is dumb because DKs were op for like three patches max in wrath then they got their legs cut off and now they're firmly on the class carousel).
• There is people ignoring shit like BM hunters and Frost DKs
• There is the fact the Havoc is uniquely simple
• There is that factored against how long Havoc has existed it's been stronger than average across most content whereas most specs don't get such ubiquitous representation

I mean you can see where the perception comes from on either perspective.

[Minikin]

I wouldn't say your argument really establishes its unique simplicity at all.

The thing is that for all the bellyaching about DHs, my point of comparison, that being the BM Hunter, is ranged. It has a pet to send in and it can just avoid many of the dangers that a melee user (like a Havoc DH) has to avoid or use a CD to defend from.

I don't think an extra CD really mitigates that.

Again, if you want to argue that DHs are simple, that's fine by me. But the "they are the only braindead class and they excel at anything without trying," notion is some tired, hysterical class recency bias in action. They aren't the best at everything without trying, they are adequate to good at everything without trying. A jack of all trades. But in individual activities, there are classes that surpass them.

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That too tbh.

i can agree with that. they have a sick toolset that makes them work really well. coming from a balance druid they feel damn OP but compared to other classes they dont seem that far out there.

glide though....is amazingly impressive XD

[Cringers]

I love playing my DH, Im quite happy with the rotation, I hate playing complex rotations where you need to be a classical pianist and be all over the keyboard.

[Varolyn]

Havoc isn't the most broken class right now and they are very high variance to even get to those insane numbers. Stuff like arms warrior, fire mage, and BM hunter are far more broken from a damage perspective.

What is an issue with havoc though atm is that their toolkit is pretty insane with so few buttons they have. They have a purge, an AoE stun, a powerful defensive on a short cd, a raid cd, a very powerful raid debuff, an interrupt that actually gives them resources, and self healing that is entirely passive. And I didn't even include some of the talents that give them even more utility, or the blade dance dodge that can sometimes come in very handy in dungeons.

Now blizz has toned back some of this and rightfully so in SL, mainly with their self healing and the blade dance dodge. What could be a problem though is that havoc is basically just brought for chaos brand, which wouldn't be good imo. They seem to want to push a momentum playstyle and shift away from demonic... but We'll see. Havoc could become a spec that was good to sometimes great at everything in BFA, to just average or sub-par in SL with just their powerful raid debuff.

[munkeyinorbit]

There is, however, something wrong when the easiest spec in the game (which is already easy in general) is also a top choice for all levels on end game content.

Also, ezmode classes breed false heroes. People who spend time with an overtuned class think they are suddenly top performers. Reality slaps hard when the brain dead class gets nerfed into line.

You only need to look at how bad of a player your average DH tends to be to see this in action. It happens, without fault, every time a class remains unbalanced to this degree. It attracts wannabes and try hards, while also creating a mentality among players that this is acceptable. Once nerfing/proper tuning does finally happen, the solution is to QQ about it because there’s no longer an overtuned brain dead class to prop up poor play.

Anyone arguing that DH is fine and not imba at current is being intentionally obtuse. Or just willfully ignorant of facts. It’s not “feelycraft” even, as some have implied. DHs are objectively overtuned.

I, for one, can’t wait. It’s going to be as glorious as watching all the bad DK players have to face reality. Won’t miss it at all.

You are completely missing the point with your envy. Wow is a team sport and it is in the best interest for the team to help elevate bads. In an environment where you are actually good, the braindeadness of a spec is irrelevant as everyone is good. When you find yourself complaining about these braindead specs you are a bad and you should actually be thankful for these specs because you need the carry.

Good players don't care. It's the team that matters. Bad players get salty on the forums and wish harm to others. Stop being bad, it's toxic.

[Saltysquidoon]

Now blizz has toned back some of this and rightfully so in SL, mainly with their self healing and the blade dance dodge. What could be a problem though is that havoc is basically just brought for chaos brand, which wouldn't be good imo. They seem to want to push a momentum playstyle and shift away from demonic... but We'll see. Havoc could become a spec that was good to sometimes great at everything in BFA, to just average or sub-par in SL with just their powerful raid debuff.

Here's an idea. Make demonic baseline, fire nemesis into the sun and come up with two new interactive 'capstone' talents that actually work.

I think conceptually without demonic Havoc is just a mess with nothing going on but basic-bitch builder/spender. I mean I want to meet the galaxy brain that saw the most basic spec in the game that meta was so integral too they killed demo for a year and then locked meta behind a massive CD.

[ZazuuPriest]

DH is considered a braindead class because you can perform in the top 30% of the dps meters pretty much no matter how terrible you are at the class. green parsing players love to roll DHs

[Seratox]

DH is a braindead class.

Then again, no spec in this game has any real.level of complexity to it, so...

[Kelimbror]

Or maybe after playing a balance druid for so long, playing a havoc dh literally feels like i upgraded from a 4 cylinder car to a v8 biturbo lol, so a case of rose tinted glasses?

I've played a druid for most of WoW and switched because of how awful feral was and I didn't feel like being a caster. That being said, I think your last statement here is one to focus on. I'm objectively *not* a Demon Hunter. I've main tanked and melee dpsd on Warrior and Druid in the competitive raid environment pretty much all of WoW. I played a DK in Pandaria as I took a break from raiding. I planned to play feral this xpac, but quickly on level cap realized this was trash tier. Switched to warrior because Arms was killing it in Uldir. At mythic Mekka prog in DA I stepped in to tank on a monk, because lol monks gg. Went DH at Jaina prog and have been a DH since then.

That's a very long story to say, I've been around the block and think my opinion is fairly unbiased. These are my takeaways:

1) I'll start with the one to trigger everyone -- DH is the most balanced class in the game.

They are easy to pickup and do moderate damage with gear (will look super strong early in tiers before anyone else has gear b/c they scale well and don't grow in leaps)
They are difficult to master, despite most people thinking otherwise. You basically have to excel at all the 'other' stuff that isn't present on a tooltip or your action bar. Resource pooling, controlled movement (since movement is damage, resource restore, and avoiding death), simulation/theorycrafting or the ability to understand results from better people, research, etc. This is why I will do at minimum 25% more damage than an equally geared DH who says it's a faceroll class. And this is while they tunnel bosses and ignore mechanics.

They have utility in a very specific area, movement. It looks like it's an all consuming toolkit because this xpac featured several prominent (end boss) fights where DH's either were semi mandatory like ghuun or just smooth like jaina.

2) So with all that being said, the reason why people overestimate the entire kit is that they just *FEEL* fun to play.
They don't have excessive mobility, but they constantly provide the dopamine response which makes it feel like the are flying bat demons. In terms of class design, they are likely the most enjoyable class to play. People aren't self-aware enough to realize, but that's typically the only factor they are ever talking about. Something you enjoy is much easier to do well at than something that feels clunky, you don't like, or even hate. Even worse, it's easier to *think* you are doing amazing when you are pretty average when you're having a blast.

3) More people playing DH at lower level raid difficulties outperforming their mates when all of them have the same level of skill.
Some classes are harder to be 'best' at, so this is definitely true. DH is a low floor, high ceiling class.

4) Everything you don't play seems better than what you do.
I know I touched on this already, but really the grass is always greener. I've played everything at level cap in at least Heroic raids this xpac and everything except DH feels OP as fuck. Mages? Spam one button, run around like a banshee even though you should have to stand still to cast, stack one corruption, do 3x the dps as anyone else. Warlock? One shot raid bosses while having more effective health than tanks. Hunters? Jesus don't get me started....BM is now likely the new DH in terms of easy to enter. I don't know that there's really a high ceiling, but probably since I don't main it.

5) If you are good at dps, you are likely good at all dps.
If you are bad at dps, you might luck into a couple of specs clicking more for you. I always parse off the charts for ilvl when I'm bringing up an alt to gear. So high compared to people with 50 more ilvls of the same class that my brain can't imagine what you would do to be so bad. I don't judge them, because that's dumb, but it's clear that my play is at another level than the regular people spamming LFR/Norm/Heroic Pugs.

TL,DR: DH goes swoosh, swoosh, LASER BEAMS pewpew and injects the dopamine into your brain until it breaks and you think you are a god. Similar to using PCP and jumping off a bridge.

[Sevarin]

momentum was horrible, and demon blades is terrible dps. im not sure where youre getting this superior passive talent from.

Demon blades is a terrible talent. The devs should have handled the problem with spamming generators the same way as Rockbiter on Enhance shamans; give Demon's Bite baseline two charges with a cooldown and increased resource generation, then think up a new talent for that tier that might be fun to play.

vengeance demon hunters actually already have that. its fracture. 2 charges with a 4.5 base cd. replaces shear. i wouldnt mind havoc having something similar.

[Redlikemyrage]

You are completely missing the point with your envy. Wow is a team sport and it is in the best interest for the team to help elevate bads. In an environment where you are actually good, the braindeadness of a spec is irrelevant as everyone is good. When you find yourself complaining about these braindead specs you are a bad and you should actually be thankful for these specs because you need the carry.

Good players don't care. It's the team that matters. Bad players get salty on the forums and wish harm to others. Stop being bad, it's toxic.

Lots of assumptions here. Should I link my logs showing me never losing to our DHs on mythic raids? Stop yourself thinking I’m envious because I’m not good enough to beat Havoc. Been out dpsing equal geared ones in my warrior all expac. Now corruptions have boosted Arms numbers to insane points, our raiding DHs can’t even come close. Not in m+ either.

Don’t assume just because a player hates a brain dead spec it’s envy, that’s the furthest thing from the truth as far as this player is concerned.

Ideally, Havoc doesn’t really even need a numbers nerf, it needs it’s skill ceiling raised to match its potency.

I don’t need a carry, haven’t since Wrath when I took the time to start pushing myself to be a better player.

Assume less, it’s toxic.

Also, all your “team game” posturing bullshit sounds good, exposes you as a care bear though. You forgetting about pvp? If this were a large team based pve game only, you might have actually had an inkling of a good point. But since m+ exists with legitimate gearing paths and community misconceptions all expac due to “what’s meta”, being salty about Havoc DHs taking spots on mythic runs is legit. Not to mention their ridiculousness in arenas.

Lemme TLR for you, cause you seem like the type of person that needs one.

No one is envious, you lake comprehension of what brain dead easy specs due for the health of the game. And when those brain dead specs are also highly overtuned most expac, it is an even bigger issue. Fucking. Duh.

[cateran100]

They don't have excessive mobility,[/B]

Whatever mate..."Mastery: Demonic PresenceRequires Demon Hunter (Havoc) Increases your Chaos damage and your movement speed", Fel Rush: 2 charges, 10 sec cd, inflicting damage (which is not always a good thing)....Now, please enlighten me..which other classes have such a boosted movement?

[Kelimbror]

Whatever mate..."Mastery: Demonic PresenceRequires Demon Hunter (Havoc) Increases your Chaos damage and your movement speed", Fel Rush: 2 charges, 10 sec cd, inflicting damage (which is not always a good thing)....Now, please enlighten me..which other classes have such a boosted movement?

Pretty much all of them dog. The fact that you linked DH mastery, which is probably the most useless mastery in the game, is proof enough you don't know what you are talking about. Are you one of 'dem 'der Mastery stacking Demon Runners? Roflcopters.

[Tyrannica]

Again... a reply out of context... I already discussed the corruptions causing this last patch to throw things wildly askew. Also, arguing semantics, really? Cool yeah, I meant spec not class, cause veng needs love honestly, feel better now?

A useless point to even make considering the base topic is about havoc, so it’s a safe assumption that’s what the reply’s were about.


Pre-corruption, Havoc DHs were most overtuned, in high end keys, raiding (do you not understand how imba their survivability is) pvp, solo content, group content, foot races... you name it.

I’m really finding it funny how defensive DH players are for fear of the, much deserved, nerf bat.

Just to stop you from replying out of context again, I’ll surmise. Havoc DH overtuned, corruptions have only propped up others in the very last patch. Havoc DH spent all of BfA being objectively better than every other spec, while having arguably the easiest rotation, mind numbing so.

I’m not calling for plate spinning, but my goodness Havoc is so easy. Off topic, but Ret gives them a run for their money in ease, but we all know they didn’t spend BfA shining like Havoc.

Yet, its you replying to me without context, and any real thoughts, you only want to troll here, and i find that quite amusng, cause tbh, i love discussions with DH haters.
I mean, you just embarrass yourself with false claims from your subjective imagination that is only in your head.

Like your claim, pre-corruption DHs were most overtuned: I have news for you, its simply not true.
In 8.1., both outlaw and assassin rogue and even unnerfed frost mage killed any dh by just walking by, due to high azerite burst and control(it got nerfed heavenly later) and lower hp pools, to survive this you had to take netherwalk, the later populared easy rotation of the demonic build would not help here at all, you would always die in a kidney, if the rogue is half competent. I should know, i played both classes as mains in that time.

Raids/Mythic+ again....what does the rogue here? he is not tanky and use cheese mechanics to prevent damage? I played rogue for 15 years and still played one in 8.1.people always complained about tankiness of rogues in both pvp and raids, how is this suddenly an exclusive privilege of the DH? DH is supposed to be tanky, with an actual tank spec as well. What is your point here since its not exclusive to havoc, but to like 3 rogue specs as well and rets.

Yes, the demonic build rotation is mind numbing, i agree with that here. and this is were class designer should improve the DH.

Giving DH more intersting playstyle and choices yes, nerfs not so much. If you forgot DH's weaknesses i can list them up, depending on content.

DHs do not even have proper burst, without corruptions and essences, and 8.3. burst trinkets/azshara trinket

Take this all away and you will see what the DH will become in SL. Leech uptime drastically reduced, hp pools reduced, and propably more suspectable to burst, while doing less ST burst than most rogue and mage specs do. Its allready an extreme nerf for them to get squished like that at the start of SL.

You make it appear, like its still 8.2., we discuss 2s arenas, with dhs, that still has working tank trinkets with an mana rift friendly, deep dampening meta and not like, all that was removed by a 80% nerf, burst meta added with corruptions and new burst essencs and trinkets and versatility nerfs. Its all for rogues and casters and its those that dominate the current meta.

Raids, do you even know what a fire mage is, how ignites work? Have you ever seen one in a raid? I mean who understands his class....?

The game has many issues, but DHs are just a meme for hc class haters and, yeah, if you find trolling that amusing continue ignoring the hard facts of any official leaderoard statistic, but mythic+.

Blows my mind that you even mention raids, maybe melees like ww monk and dks should have been buffed, how about that?

In your (horrific) vision, every melee must suck, because Havoc is one of the few melee specs that do not suck, they must be brought down too, let me ask you a question: Are you a mage, rogue or warlock main?

Whats your agenda here?

Post some creditable data, how havoc is dominating every other class or simply don't waste time trolling?

btw,

I’m really finding it funny how defensive DH players are for fear of the, much deserved, nerf bat

I happen to main DH since 8.1.5., but since i disagree with you in terms of class power and i wanted to play a range dd again, i mained a fire mage in 8.3. as well, while maintaining the DH. Doubt i will continue to play DH in SL. Its not important what class people play, but to state that a class deserves nerfs is just plain wrong. It won't help other classes that deserve actually buffs, its a lose/lose situation, if you feel that way, nobody will be happy in the end.

Besides, DH was actually nerfed severe in 8.3. coming from 8.2. By nerfing tank trinkets, C&S essence nerf and versatilty corruption nerf, as Dhs are weak against stunlocks and most cc that locks them down, leech does not work passively most DH defensives do not work in stuns or other cc conditions, i bet you should know that. As an unholy DK another long main i had, i am basicly immune to stuns. A hero class nobdoy talks about anymore, merely because it lacks wings, double jump and that exclusive elven ear club.

Have a nice day, my raging friend, perhaps go out sometime, breath fresh, demonic sulfur air and think more deeply about overall class balance and how trivial that is, compared to actual innovative class design.

[Redlikemyrage]

Yet, its you replying to me without context, and any real thoughts, you only want to troll here, and i find that quite amusng, cause tbh, i love discussions with DH haters.
I mean, you just embarrass yourself with false claims from your subjective imagination that is only in your head.

Like your claim, pre-corruption DHs were most overtuned: I have news for you, its simply not true.
In 8.1., both outlaw and assassin rogue and even unnerfed frost mage killed any dh by just walking by, due to high azerite burst and control(it got nerfed heavenly later) and lower hp pools, to survive this you had to take netherwalk, the later populared easy rotation of the demonic build would not help here at all, you would always die in a kidney, if the rogue is half competent. I should know, i played both classes as mains in that time.

Raids/Mythic+ again....what does the rogue here? he is not tanky and use cheese mechanics to prevent damage? I played rogue for 15 years and still played one in 8.1.people always complained about tankiness of rogues in both pvp and raids, how is this suddenly an exclusive privilege of the DH? DH is supposed to be tanky, with an actual tank spec as well. What is your point here since its not exclusive to havoc, but to like 3 rogue specs as well and rets.

Yes, the demonic build rotation is mind numbing, i agree with that here. and this is were class designer should improve the DH.

Giving DH more intersting playstyle and choices yes, nerfs not so much. If you forgot DH's weaknesses i can list them up, depending on content.

DHs do not even have proper burst, without corruptions and essences, and 8.3. burst trinkets/azshara trinket

Take this all away and you will see what the DH will become in SL. Leech uptime drastically reduced, hp pools reduced, and propably more suspectable to burst, while doing less ST burst than most rogue and mage specs do. Its allready an extreme nerf for them to get squished like that at the start of SL.

You make it appear, like its still 8.2., we discuss 2s arenas, with dhs, that still has working tank trinkets with an mana rift friendly, deep dampening meta and not like, all that was removed by a 80% nerf, burst meta added with corruptions and new burst essencs and trinkets and versatility nerfs. Its all for rogues and casters and its those that dominate the current meta.

Raids, do you even know what a fire mage is, how ignites work? Have you ever seen one in a raid? I mean who understands his class....?

The game has many issues, but DHs are just a meme for hc class haters and, yeah, if you find trolling that amusing continue ignoring the hard facts of any official leaderoard statistic, but mythic+.

Blows my mind that you even mention raids, maybe melees like ww monk and dks should have been buffed, how about that?

In your (horrific) vision, every melee must suck, because Havoc is one of the few melee specs that do not suck, they must be brought down too, let me ask you a question: Are you a mage, rogue or warlock main?

Whats your agenda here?

Post some creditable data, how havoc is dominating every other class or simply don't waste time trolling?

btw,



I happen to main DH since 8.1.5., but since i disagree with you in terms of class power and i wanted to play a range dd again, i mained a fire mage in 8.3. as well, while maintaining the DH. Doubt i will continue to play DH in SL. Its not important what class people play, but to state that a class deserves nerfs is just plain wrong. It won't help other classes that deserve actually buffs, its a lose/lose situation, if you feel that way, nobody will be happy in the end.

Besides, DH was actually nerfed severe in 8.3. coming from 8.2. By nerfing tank trinkets, C&S essence nerf and versatilty corruption nerf, as Dhs are weak against stunlocks and most cc that locks them down, leech does not work passively most DH defensives do not work in stuns or other cc conditions, i bet you should know that. As an unholy DK another long main i had, i am basicly immune to stuns. A hero class nobdoy talks about anymore, merely because it lacks wings, double jump and that exclusive elven ear club.

Have a nice day, my raging friend, perhaps go out sometime, breath fresh, demonic sulfur air and think more deeply about overall class balance and how trivial that is, compared to actual innovative class design.

You wasted a lot of time for an empty post filled with bias. Move around, son.