Void lords and Old gods

[Piamonte]

Retconned. What we faced were their heads.

- - - Updated - - -



He has control of ALL of Ny'alotha. He's the most powerful, considering the whole reason a power imbalance existed between them in the first place because the Old Gods were fighting for control.

he is the weakest of the old gods. Every other old god in full power could beat nzoth in a fight.

[Aucald]

If that's the case, I think they should have, and could have, represented it better in-game with phasing technology for max level characters. I know how they tried to manifest Ny'alotha in 8.3 in concept. The thing is, when I log into my 120 and look around, Elwynn Forest looks the exact same. I have to go into specific instanced content to see what might come to pass if the bad guy wins. That's equivalent to End Time if Deathwing wins and impales himself over Wyrmrest. It's all in our heads until N'zoth wins, which he won't. It's a possible apocalyptic future, but it's not real in the present.

It's not just an apocalyptic future, though - N'Zoth is seeking to overwrite everything that is, was, or will be all in one go. If Ny'alotha manifested Azeroth would've been corrupted from the get-go, and everyone in it wouldn't be corrupted, they would've always been corrupted, like the Horrific Visions show us. Those aren't the future, they're the present, albeit one corrupted by N'Zoth's presence. As Wrathion puts it in the intro quests "N'Zoth isn't looking for ancient knowledge because Ny'alotha would make such knowledge useless," because he'll have overwritten it all with his own corrupted timeline, so to speak. Nothing that is or was will matter in N'Zoth's conception of Ny'alotha.

The fact that Ny'alotha is contained to Uldum and the Vale is more a gameplay contrivance, with the Visions meaning to show that his congruent unreality is also seeping everywhere else. It is a lot like the End Time instance, in a way, just on a grander temporal scale and a greater general scope.

[Littleraven]

Honestly Blizzard hasn't seemed to settle on how they want the lore to work. Maybe it will be better for it long term but right now they keep rewriting rules and it looks sloppy. My biggest example of this is when they basically made Chronicle not 100% canon by saying it is from the perspective of the Titans only. On paper that sounds cool because it sets the universe up to be way more interesting I think. That said I don't know if they can or will end up in a place that feels awesome.

They keep going for style over function and it is very much showing now. They do shit just for it to be cool and worry about picking up the pieces later.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Honestly Blizzard hasn't seemed to settle on how they want the lore to work. Maybe it will be better for it long term but right now they keep rewriting rules and it looks sloppy. My biggest example of this is when they basically made Chronicle not 100% canon by saying it is from the perspective of the Titans only. On paper that sounds cool because it sets the universe up to be way more interesting I think. That said I don't know if they can or will end up in a place that feels awesome.

They keep going for style over function and it is very much showing now. They do shit just for it to be cool and worry about picking up the pieces later.

They did that to make things more open. Example, maybe they aren't the only titans around or maybe the Titans did other things the Titans didn't say. Its in this area of "Confirm but verify"

Kinda of like how the chronicle says "Main continent" of Azeroth which implies it isn't the only one.

New lore would be the verify.

[Kithelle]

well, this is kinda a weird post, a while ago i made a post trying to understand why the titans didnt kill the old gods using the titanforged, i mean, we killed the old gods without damaging the planet for the sole reason that we are small, and if we could do it, then the titanforged certainly could as well.

The answers i got were kinda convulated and insatisfactory, but some other guy asked the same thing in reddit a while ago, and some other guy gave a great answer: "what if the titans didnt kill the old gods, because it would only force the void lords to create new ones and send them to azeroth, may be the void lords lose energy when they create an old god, so if they know that the ones that are already here on azeroth are still alive, they dont bother in creating more of them"

And i started thinking, what if the process of creating an old god, is a very inneficient one, what if when the void lords briefly enter our reality to devour worlds like they did with Karesh (ethereal´s homeworld), what they are actually doing, is using that matter to create an old god, not only they lose power by entering our reality but they need an entire world to create a single old god.

So, somehow the titans knew this and avoided killing the old gods, because while contained, azeroth is still protected once the titans are gone, but if they kill them, new ones arrive and they wont be there to protect azeroth.

anyway, thoughts?

I don't know...the Void Lords just created numerous Old Gods and hurled them throughout our realm blindly in hopes to corrupt sleeping titans that says to be they're pretty expendable...to do something like that just feels to me that the Old Gods aren't a precious resource...are something they can afford to produce many of.

[Kyphael]

It's not just an apocalyptic future, though - N'Zoth is seeking to overwrite everything that is, was, or will be all in one go. If Ny'alotha manifested Azeroth would've been corrupted from the get-go, and everyone in it wouldn't be corrupted, they would've always been corrupted, like the Horrific Visions show us. Those aren't the future, they're the present, albeit one corrupted by N'Zoth's presence. As Wrathion puts it in the intro quests "N'Zoth isn't looking for ancient knowledge because Ny'alotha would make such knowledge useless," because he'll have overwritten it all with his own corrupted timeline, so to speak. Nothing that is or was will matter in N'Zoth's conception of Ny'alotha.

The fact that Ny'alotha is contained to Uldum and the Vale is more a gameplay contrivance, with the Visions meaning to show that his congruent unreality is also seeping everywhere else. It is a lot like the End Time instance, in a way, just on a grander temporal scale and a greater general scope.

So N'zoth has omniscient will over time and space to re-write it as he sees fit if he wins? What constitutes as a victory? Why doesn't he do it? What must he do to re-make Azeroth's past, present, and future into Ny'alotha?

[TheFirstOnes]

he is the weakest of the old gods. Every other old god in full power could beat nzoth in a fight.

Not anymore, because he controls EVERYTHING!

[Piamonte]

Not anymore, because he controls EVERYTHING!

he died yesterday.

[TheFirstOnes]

he died yesterday.

Well to be fair...

Blizzard sucks!

[Piamonte]

So N'zoth has omniscient will over time and space to re-write it as he sees fit if he wins? What constitutes as a victory? Why doesn't he do it? What must he do to re-make Azeroth's past, present, and future into Ny'alotha?

aucald is just overcomplicating things, Nyalothat is just an artificial dimension created by the old gods, is seeping into our reality. Nzoth is dead, nyalotha is gone, end of the story.

[Aucald]

So N'zoth has omniscient will over time and space to re-write it as he sees fit if he wins? What constitutes as a victory? Why doesn't he do it? What must he do to re-make Azeroth's past, present, and future into Ny'alotha?

He would have omniscience will over time and space if he was able to overwrite it, yes. Victory would be constituted by successfully doing so. Both the current timeline as well as its defenders (us) are fighting against him, though - killing his agents and rooting out the corrupting aspects of Ny'alotha that creep into Azeroth and basically keeping it at a relative standstill. Then breaking into the heart of Ny'alotha itself to destroy N'Zoth and put an end to his reality's forward momentum.

N'Zoth is the Corrupter, and you can imagine his reality in the form of Ny'alotha as a plague - a viral fever or cancer he's infecting our timeline with. We act as antibodies, killing the plaguing agents that spread Ny'alotha, keeping it contained in the worst of the effected places (Uldum and the Vale), but we can't fully stop the infection without killing the root of the affliction: N'Zoth himself. Which is what we do in the Ny'alotha raid.

[Mic_128]

they still had the reorigination device, whatever way you look at it, it doesnt make sense.

It was created after the fall of the Old Gods, for a start. I imagine they didn't want to use it, as scouring all life on Azeroth would certainly cripple Azeroth's growth, but it was a better option than destruction. The Tol'vir changed the device to target a small area - it's entirely possible the Titans just didn't think of using it to target a smaller area - or they feared doing so would bore another wound into Azeroth.

[therealbowser]

cthun and yoggsaron are also dead. Confirmed multiple times by devs.

Strange then that this is the first I've heard about it, and I try to keep up with this stuff. Can you provide a source, so I can be certain?

[Jastall]

This is very true. Which begs the question why the Titans just didn't do that before this anyway. The Tol'vir were able to use just enough power to obliterate Uldum when Lei Shen wanted to add them to his empire, so obviously the Titans knew that it had a range of power settings when they built it. Granted, yes, the Heart of Azeroth didn't exist at the time, and the World-Soul was much "younger" than she is now.

It also comes to mind that the Titans weren't very good at building prisons for the Old Gods, since every single one was corrupted or destroyed - the Heart of Y'shaarj was still spewing power where it was caged. G'huun even corrupted Uldir, the facility where he was crated and imprisoned. It just seems like the Titans didn't understand the Old Gods at all, or what to do with them.

Or, like, Blizzard hadn't thought of all this back in the day, and the story changed a ton because different people wrote different things, and I'm just over analyzing everything. BUT WHO KNOWS.

Being fair, the Titan facilities failed after a long-ass time. Yogg-saron managed to corrupt the Keepers only fairly recently if memory serves. The Heart of Y'shaarj was roughly under control (bar some fallout) for more than 10 000 years. C'thun I think was partially freed earlier than the others, and unlike the rest was puzzlingly nowhere near a Titan facility or prison of any kind. N'zoth was tossed at the bottom of the sea and remained there until we were tricked into freeing him. But yeah, the very existence of Uldir, and the epic fail that happened there, does show that the Titans didn't do that much homework when it comes to the Old Gods.

It's possible that the Titans planned on coming back to Azeroth for regularly scheduled check-ups and maintenance. But Sargeras put the kibosh on that by killing them.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Being fair, the Titan facilities failed after a long-ass time. Yogg-saron managed to corrupt the Keepers only fairly recently if memory serves. The Heart of Y'shaarj was roughly under control (bar some fallout) for more than 10 000 years. C'thun I think was partially freed earlier than the others, and unlike the rest was puzzlingly nowhere near a Titan facility or prison of any kind. N'zoth was tossed at the bottom of the sea and remained there until we were tricked into freeing him. But yeah, the very existence of Uldir, and the epic fail that happened there, does show that the Titans didn't do that much homework when it comes to the Old Gods.

It's possible that the Titans planned on coming back to Azeroth for regularly scheduled check-ups and maintenance. But Sargeras put the kibosh on that by killing them.

Not like they had many options, it was a new foe to them. Granted Uldir was a massive fuckup

[Destinas]

the reorigination device can be used to attack a single spot instead of destroying the entire planet, this has been done twice, once when the thunder king died for the first time and now with nzoth.

Yeah, I already mentioned that in another post. Which, as I said before, begs the question why the Titans didn't use that before if they designed that function into the Halls of Origination anyway.

At the end of the day, lots of plot elements are working against each other over time, with contradictory facts given and holes left that aren't filled with any solid reasoning.

[Piamonte]

Yeah, I already mentioned that in another post. Which, as I said before, begs the question why the Titans didn't use that before if they designed that function into the Halls of Origination anyway.

At the end of the day, lots of plot elements are working against each other over time, with contradictory facts given and holes left that aren't filled with any solid reasoning.

agreed, well i tried to fix it in the op.

[Yarathir]

Strange then that this is the first I've heard about it, and I try to keep up with this stuff. Can you provide a source, so I can be certain?

It's more like "We don't have any plans to use them and bring them back so for the time being just presume that they are dead for all intents and purposes."

[Piamonte]

It's more like "We don't have any plans to use them and bring them back so for the time being just presume that they are dead for all intents and purposes."

they are dead, they have said it like 3 times now

[Yarathir]

they are dead, they have said it like 3 times now

No, they've said they're functionally dead. They keep reiterating that Old Gods are different types of creatures, just that they have no plans to bring them back into the story, so they're as good as dead in the game.