Mega-Thread: Coronavirus Pandemic

[Twdft]

A rushed treatment takes a quarter of a decade to test... your arguing they did so in roughly seven months.

Vaccine, not treatment. Also: first mrna vaccine tests on animals were done in 1993, first with humans in 2003.

[beanman12345]

People are dying because of the lies and misinformation that poster and those like him spread. Lies and misinformation that was debunked...what...8 months ago? There is no excuse.

We've also been through this song-and-dance with anti-vaxxers endangering children for two decades. This "I'm just asking questions like real scientists do, bro!" bullshit didn't work then, and it won't work now.

Exactly. I'm pretty sure anyone who isn't a sociopath, is finding the last 1.5+ years very emotional, I've seen Phaelix posts, can tell he's very emotional about this too, so pretty insulting thing saying he isn't imo. Like even people being aggressive, it's to people we're fighting so they do not die from a likely extremely preventable death, or get someone else dead because of their misinformation's, or inactions. I don't find other people posting in this manner hilarious or worrying at all, in fact it's faith in humanity restoring. Because of all the misinformation we have had way too many die from something they didn't have to die from. And they die with a last minute regret knowing they didn't have to die, or they die still believing they just have a cold.

[Draco-Onis]

That isn't how the covid vaccine works... it creates proteins in a effort to block the infection point but it offers no immunity nor does it protect your immune system. I am not arguing that those at risk shouldn't get it but for those where the most likely outcome is they won't even notice catching it to take a moment and consider if its worth risking long term harm vs simply riding it out.

That doesn't make much sense just because you don't feel anything doesn't mean you aren't being harmed by it that's not even going into how you are spreading it to others and are becoming a point of mutation. You also didn't address the risk of having a disease, there's no way for you to know for sure that you are safe because underlying conditions and factors are obviously unknown. It's not like the US is good on health care most people don't get a doctor check up.

[Granyala]

Like even people being aggressive, it's to people we're fighting so they do not die from a likely extremely preventable death, or get someone else dead because of their misinformation's, or inactions.

If you think that aggressive, kiddie like behavior and using the word "FUCK" in every second sentence will convince people of what you have to say, you have a lot to learn about the nature of humans.
I'll give you a hint: the more aggressive your tone, the less open the mind of your counterpart will be because you are already pushing it into a deep defensive state via articulation, body language and tone of voice already.

You have the facts and the data on your side. Use them, in a cold and logical manner. Deconstruct the arguments of your counterpart on a factual level and leave the decision up to him.
Accept that you will not, no matter what you do, convince everyone you meet.

I know, not easy to do, we're all humans after all and emotions do come into play eventually but let's at least try, o.k.?

- - - Updated - - -

You negated everything you said with this last sentence.

Scientists put everything another scientist does under close scrutiny and only if multiple, independent parties have verified the results will they be accepted as fact.

If the science is sound, the person being "painstakingly critical and thorough" will find nothing. Though it might waste time when it applies the above to things already widely proven and accepted.

Frankly put: There is a lot of bogus, "sciency-looking", pseudoscience out there.
Not just in the realm of Corona, just go to any audiophile website, you will find enough BS to fill books.

[s_bushido]

You have the facts and the data on your side. Use them, in a cold and logical manner. Deconstruct the arguments of your counterpart on a factual level and leave the decision up to him.

These people didn't arrive at their conclusions through "facts and data" in the first place. And it's been demonstrated time and again that the only thing that will snap them out of their garbage is the serious illness or death of someone close to them. No amount of tone-policing on your part is likely to change that.

[Granyala]

Less surprised, more just curious at the rate of spread, and what exactly caused it. We've moved on from people trusting in people that actually know what they're talking about, and gone to people that have a tiny YouTube channel with titles about "THE TRUTH!" being the most trusted sources.

I think when science becomes politicized, a lot of false information is generated at the behest of the party behind it. It's easy for scientists to make statistics look good etc.

It is not easy for the common man to distinguish between clean science and biased science. Hell, keeping bias out of the interpretations/result is a huge challenge, even for scientists. That's why we have independent reviews of independent reviews.

So, if enough politicized BS is spread, eventually people will be skeptical about everything. Even the clean science. Social media being the unfiltered cesspools they are surely doesn't help the matter either. So much easier in these days to spread BS science to millions of people.
Back then, you needed to be printed or put on television/radio to reach people. At least some control was exercised, though the tobacco industry proved that system could be circumvented too.

I'm not someone that argues for tinfoil hats everywhere but to completely leave capitalistic motives / desire for personal gain out of the equation and blindly trusting is just as dangerous.

- - - Updated - - -

These people didn't arrive at their conclusions through "facts and data" in the first place. And it's been demonstrated time and again that the only thing that will snap them out of their garbage is the serious illness or death of someone close to them. No amount of tone-policing on your part is likely to change that.

That's their freedom of choice then. Still doesn't make raging at people the correct or even the productive thing to do.
If you want to take the choice out of the equation, you have to force people on a govt. level. Good luck with that in the U.S.

[kreationkin]

That is how they work... do none of you have any idea HOW the vaccine prevents covid? What the hell do you think the spike proteins do?

Although others have responded - on the off chance you aren't purposefully spreading misinformation I'll give you a quick layman's view of what's actually going on during vaccination with some accompanying cellular biology necessary for understanding. This isn't intended to be complete and 100% accurate and I'm going to simplify some things. If you really want to know more detail I'd recommend auditing a course at a medical school on immunology.

Proteins: Proteins are just chains of amino acids that fold up into a specific configuration. Think of proteins as stuff. Your body makes proteins all the damn time. After those proteins do their functions they need to get broken down and we have tons of different enzymes whose job it is to do that so we can use them again as raw material for other needed cellular processes or so that once they're broken down we can release them as waste in your urine.

Spike Protein: This is a small portion of the proteins (Read: stuff) which cover the coronavirus. The spike protein is thought to be necessary for the coronavirus to enter a cell and thus take advantage of the cells machinery to make more coronavirus. It doesn't specifically "clog up" the cell, any clogging up done by a coronavirus is going to be the overproduction of more viral proteins inside the cell (But it will include spike proteins among all the other proteins) which eventually prevent the cell from doing what it SHOULD be doing and leading to cell failure and death/rupture.

mRNA: This messenger RNA is what you get when a different enzyme copies one of two strands of your DNA inside the nucleus of a cell to produce instructions for a ribosome to make a new amino acid chain (sometimes even a whole protein!). The mRNA leaves the nucleus, finds a ribosome, and is then turned into amino acid chains / proteins and then is relatively quickly broken down by the normal cleanup crew of your cells.

The vaccine: The vaccine contains synthesized (man-made) MRNA. This MRNA makes its way into cells where just like the MRNA your body makes it is found by a ribosome and turned into amino acids which happen to fold into a spike protein. Your cells don't really have a purpose for this spike protein, and some of it probably does hurt individual cells (one possible reason for the muscle soreness after vaccination) but much of it is released into the intracellular spaces.

Immune system: Your immune system, made up of a bunch of different white blood cell types including B-cells, T-cells, dendritic cells, has an overall "job" of finding things that aren't YOU and getting rid of them. How does it know what's you and what isn't? Mostly through a "signature" that is on all of your cells (read up on Major Histocompatibility Complexes [MHC]'s for more info). The spike proteins that were released by the cell (regardless of whether from vaccination or from infection) are going to be seen by the immune system.

Immune Response: Upon finding a foreign thing in your body the immune system makes "mirror opposite or anti-spike protein" sequences of parts of the foreign thing which it produces and then places on top of antibodies made by the B-cells in your body. these mirror opposite parts lock on to parts of the foreign object (now called an antigen) and then make the antibody's "tail" change to signal the rest of your immune system to come over and destroy/break down whatever it's caught on to. (When this process goes wrong we get auto-immune diseases like rheumatoid arthritis and our body attacks our own cells!). This whole process does take time to get started, usually on the order of a couple days.

Infection vs Vaccination: The spike proteins made earlier whether by vaccination with mRNA or from takeover of your cells ribosomes by actual covid infection get broken down. If you were vaccinated then you've got it pretty good, you won't produce additional spike proteins after the initial mRNA is broken down, so your body will stop the immune response and remember the mirror opposite combination for it's antigen in b-cells for future use while keeping around the antibodies it already made. On the other hand if you were infected you've got to deal with all of the coronaviruses and their proteins that it's been making while your immune response ramped up. This is why you can get really really sick with covid infection. The coronavirus can replicate so rapidly that you can lose a lot of the normal function of cells, particularly in your lungs where the infection first takes hold, leading to a whole host of other problems. Most of what we can do to treat you if your this sick is to try to reduce the inflammation response which can be so strong as to be counter productive, and give what we call supportive care, which is to try to keep you hydrated and breathing. Most people survice, some people have long lasting damage from the war. But either way considering you could have just gotten vaccinated to give your body the head start of already knowing how to make "anti-spike proteins" it's not a good outcome.

Any argument you make about not knowing the long term of effects of vaccination 25-30 years down the line is foolish on three counts. One, your body is going to make those spike proteins anyway because regardless of if the instructions came from synthetic mRNA or from the coronavirus you're going to make them. The long term effects of exposure, even if bad, will be there regardless of vaccination status as long as you aren't operating under the illusion that you're going to somehow AVOID exposure to covid completely. Two, the SHORT term effects of both are incredibly well documented, and you are FAR FAR FAR more likely to die from covid-19 infection than from vaccination. And Three, the idea that we wait 30 years to see the long term effects of ANY new treatment is laughable. Most new medications hit the market with FAR FAR less robust safety data than the vaccines have.

I truly hope this helps you understand.

[Gaidax]

Test result is negative. Corona canceled.

[Tuor]

Although others have responded - on the off chance you aren't purposefully spreading misinformation I'll give you a quick layman's view of what's actually going on during vaccination with some accompanying cellular biology necessary for understanding. This isn't intended to be complete and 100% accurate and I'm going to simplify some things. If you really want to know more detail I'd recommend auditing a course at a medical school on immunology.

Proteins: Proteins are just chains of amino acids that fold up into a specific configuration. Think of proteins as stuff. Your body makes proteins all the damn time. After those proteins do their functions they need to get broken down and we have tons of different enzymes whose job it is to do that so we can use them again as raw material for other needed cellular processes or so that once they're broken down we can release them as waste in your urine.

Spike Protein: This is a small portion of the proteins (Read: stuff) which cover the coronavirus. The spike protein is thought to be necessary for the coronavirus to enter a cell and thus take advantage of the cells machinery to make more coronavirus. It doesn't specifically "clog up" the cell, any clogging up done by a coronavirus is going to be the overproduction of more viral proteins inside the cell (But it will include spike proteins among all the other proteins) which eventually prevent the cell from doing what it SHOULD be doing and leading to cell failure and death/rupture.

mRNA: This messenger RNA is what you get when a different enzyme copies one of two strands of your DNA inside the nucleus of a cell to produce instructions for a ribosome to make a new amino acid chain (sometimes even a whole protein!). The mRNA leaves the nucleus, finds a ribosome, and is then turned into amino acid chains / proteins and then is relatively quickly broken down by the normal cleanup crew of your cells.

The vaccine: The vaccine contains synthesized (man-made) MRNA. This MRNA makes its way into cells where just like the MRNA your body makes it is found by a ribosome and turned into amino acids which happen to fold into a spike protein. Your cells don't really have a purpose for this spike protein, and some of it probably does hurt individual cells (one possible reason for the muscle soreness after vaccination) but much of it is released into the intracellular spaces.

Immune system: Your immune system, made up of a bunch of different white blood cell types including B-cells, T-cells, dendritic cells, has an overall "job" of finding things that aren't YOU and getting rid of them. How does it know what's you and what isn't? Mostly through a "signature" that is on all of your cells (read up on Major Histocompatibility Complexes [MHC]'s for more info). The spike proteins that were released by the cell (regardless of whether from vaccination or from infection) are going to be seen by the immune system.

Immune Response: Upon finding a foreign thing in your body the immune system makes "mirror opposite or anti-spike protein" sequences of parts of the foreign thing which it produces and then places on top of antibodies made by the B-cells in your body. these mirror opposite parts lock on to parts of the foreign object (now called an antigen) and then make the antibody's "tail" change to signal the rest of your immune system to come over and destroy/break down whatever it's caught on to. (When this process goes wrong we get auto-immune diseases like rheumatoid arthritis and our body attacks our own cells!). This whole process does take time to get started, usually on the order of a couple days.

Infection vs Vaccination: The spike proteins made earlier whether by vaccination with mRNA or from takeover of your cells ribosomes by actual covid infection get broken down. If you were vaccinated then you've got it pretty good, you won't produce additional spike proteins after the initial mRNA is broken down, so your body will stop the immune response and remember the mirror opposite combination for it's antigen in b-cells for future use while keeping around the antibodies it already made. On the other hand if you were infected you've got to deal with all of the coronaviruses and their proteins that it's been making while your immune response ramped up. This is why you can get really really sick with covid infection. The coronavirus can replicate so rapidly that you can lose a lot of the normal function of cells, particularly in your lungs where the infection first takes hold, leading to a whole host of other problems. Most of what we can do to treat you if your this sick is to try to reduce the inflammation response which can be so strong as to be counter productive, and give what we call supportive care, which is to try to keep you hydrated and breathing. Most people survice, some people have long lasting damage from the war. But either way considering you could have just gotten vaccinated to give your body the head start of already knowing how to make "anti-spike proteins" it's not a good outcome.

Any argument you make about not knowing the long term of effects of vaccination 25-30 years down the line is foolish on three counts. One, your body is going to make those spike proteins anyway because regardless of if the instructions came from synthetic mRNA or from the coronavirus you're going to make them. The long term effects of exposure, even if bad, will be there regardless of vaccination status as long as you aren't operating under the illusion that you're going to somehow AVOID exposure to covid completely. Two, the SHORT term effects of both are incredibly well documented, and you are FAR FAR FAR more likely to die from covid-19 infection than from vaccination. And Three, the idea that we wait 30 years to see the long term effects of ANY new treatment is laughable. Most new medications hit the market with FAR FAR less robust safety data than the vaccines have.

I truly hope this helps you understand.

If you allow me, i'll post your text in another forum, one that has loads of antivaxxers.

[Forogil]

Any argument you make about not knowing the long term of effects of vaccination 25-30 years down the line is foolish on three counts. One, your body is going to make those spike proteins anyway because regardless of if the instructions came from synthetic mRNA or from the coronavirus you're going to make them. The long term effects of exposure, even if bad, will be there regardless of vaccination status as long as you aren't operating under the illusion that you're going to somehow AVOID exposure to covid completely. Two, the SHORT term effects of both are incredibly well documented, and you are FAR FAR FAR more likely to die from covid-19 infection than from vaccination.

Good post in general.

However, I don't fully agree with the risk of dying.
For the mRNA vaccines previously discussed like Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna I fully agree.
However, for viral vector vaccines (Janssen, AstraZeneca, Sputnik V) if you are young enough (age 50 is clearly not young enough), and have access to good health-care then the risk of dying of is actually somewhat comparable to the risk dying of the virus. (If you consider more than your risk of dying then the vaccines have another advantage.) Note that it is comparing two low risks in that case.

The obvious solution is to take another vaccine in that case; and therefore many countries don't give those vaccines to that age group (especially in Europe), or haven't approved the vaccine at all (AstraZeneca in the US; and Sputnik V in both EU and the US).
But that assumes that there's another option available - and that there's good communication.

Australia is in a bit of a mess regarding this, since they recommend avoiding AZ for people below the "young age" of 60 (which seems a bit excessive precaution), lack doses of Pfizer/BioNTech's, and are now seeing an outbreak of Delta that doesn't seem possible to contain.

It has also been messy in some EU countries (like Germany), first AZ was only given to young persons since there weren't any data for the elderly, then it was given to all, and then only to the elderly due to this...

And Three, the idea that we wait 30 years to see the long term effects of ANY new treatment is laughable. Most new medications hit the market with FAR FAR less robust safety data than the vaccines have.

True, but these vaccines are a bit special as they are given to hundreds of millions healthy person during the first year.
That's why they were tested in large groups, and why it's important to investigate any problems - but apart from some minor issues it seems to work.

[Zan15]

Although others have responded - on the off chance you aren't purposefully spreading misinformation I'll give you a quick layman's view of what's actually going on during vaccination with some accompanying cellular biology necessary for understanding. This isn't intended to be complete and 100% accurate and I'm going to simplify some things. If you really want to know more detail I'd recommend auditing a course at a medical school on immunology.

Proteins: Proteins are just chains of amino acids that fold up into a specific configuration. Think of proteins as stuff. Your body makes proteins all the damn time. After those proteins do their functions they need to get broken down and we have tons of different enzymes whose job it is to do that so we can use them again as raw material for other needed cellular processes or so that once they're broken down we can release them as waste in your urine.

Spike Protein: This is a small portion of the proteins (Read: stuff) which cover the coronavirus. The spike protein is thought to be necessary for the coronavirus to enter a cell and thus take advantage of the cells machinery to make more coronavirus. It doesn't specifically "clog up" the cell, any clogging up done by a coronavirus is going to be the overproduction of more viral proteins inside the cell (But it will include spike proteins among all the other proteins) which eventually prevent the cell from doing what it SHOULD be doing and leading to cell failure and death/rupture.

mRNA: This messenger RNA is what you get when a different enzyme copies one of two strands of your DNA inside the nucleus of a cell to produce instructions for a ribosome to make a new amino acid chain (sometimes even a whole protein!). The mRNA leaves the nucleus, finds a ribosome, and is then turned into amino acid chains / proteins and then is relatively quickly broken down by the normal cleanup crew of your cells.

The vaccine: The vaccine contains synthesized (man-made) MRNA. This MRNA makes its way into cells where just like the MRNA your body makes it is found by a ribosome and turned into amino acids which happen to fold into a spike protein. Your cells don't really have a purpose for this spike protein, and some of it probably does hurt individual cells (one possible reason for the muscle soreness after vaccination) but much of it is released into the intracellular spaces.

Immune system: Your immune system, made up of a bunch of different white blood cell types including B-cells, T-cells, dendritic cells, has an overall "job" of finding things that aren't YOU and getting rid of them. How does it know what's you and what isn't? Mostly through a "signature" that is on all of your cells (read up on Major Histocompatibility Complexes [MHC]'s for more info). The spike proteins that were released by the cell (regardless of whether from vaccination or from infection) are going to be seen by the immune system.

Immune Response: Upon finding a foreign thing in your body the immune system makes "mirror opposite or anti-spike protein" sequences of parts of the foreign thing which it produces and then places on top of antibodies made by the B-cells in your body. these mirror opposite parts lock on to parts of the foreign object (now called an antigen) and then make the antibody's "tail" change to signal the rest of your immune system to come over and destroy/break down whatever it's caught on to. (When this process goes wrong we get auto-immune diseases like rheumatoid arthritis and our body attacks our own cells!). This whole process does take time to get started, usually on the order of a couple days.

Infection vs Vaccination: The spike proteins made earlier whether by vaccination with mRNA or from takeover of your cells ribosomes by actual covid infection get broken down. If you were vaccinated then you've got it pretty good, you won't produce additional spike proteins after the initial mRNA is broken down, so your body will stop the immune response and remember the mirror opposite combination for it's antigen in b-cells for future use while keeping around the antibodies it already made. On the other hand if you were infected you've got to deal with all of the coronaviruses and their proteins that it's been making while your immune response ramped up. This is why you can get really really sick with covid infection. The coronavirus can replicate so rapidly that you can lose a lot of the normal function of cells, particularly in your lungs where the infection first takes hold, leading to a whole host of other problems. Most of what we can do to treat you if your this sick is to try to reduce the inflammation response which can be so strong as to be counter productive, and give what we call supportive care, which is to try to keep you hydrated and breathing. Most people survice, some people have long lasting damage from the war. But either way considering you could have just gotten vaccinated to give your body the head start of already knowing how to make "anti-spike proteins" it's not a good outcome.

Any argument you make about not knowing the long term of effects of vaccination 25-30 years down the line is foolish on three counts. One, your body is going to make those spike proteins anyway because regardless of if the instructions came from synthetic mRNA or from the coronavirus you're going to make them. The long term effects of exposure, even if bad, will be there regardless of vaccination status as long as you aren't operating under the illusion that you're going to somehow AVOID exposure to covid completely. Two, the SHORT term effects of both are incredibly well documented, and you are FAR FAR FAR more likely to die from covid-19 infection than from vaccination. And Three, the idea that we wait 30 years to see the long term effects of ANY new treatment is laughable. Most new medications hit the market with FAR FAR less robust safety data than the vaccines have.

I truly hope this helps you understand.

Great post. To add to it....

...Not to mention most of the "delay" of new medicine/treatments is not even waiting for "data" or "long term effects".

Its First waiting for the corporations/research companies business pipeline and product/research planning stages. They all have long term plans and its hardly ever a "race" like it was for COVID because of how bad it was going to get.

For profit companies also slow down the process because they have "pipelines" on products so they don't end up with massive spikes up/down of their revenue and profits. There is the law of diminishing returns so they don't produce the kinds of work they did with the vaccine very often. They did it this time because of public pressure and Massive promised funding from the Govt.

Second its because of the product approval "waiting line". Very few treatments/medications/Vaxx get rushed to the front of the line and have massive amount of resources put towards the "approval" process.
Most of the time approval process is one of the longest parts because they are on a very long list of folks in front of them. They also don't have anywhere near the amount of data they have on the vaccine.

- - - Updated - - -

If you allow me, i'll post your text in another forum, one that has loads of antivaxxers.

Won't matter they will wiggle right around it and come up with a whole new set of "excuses" and conspiracies.

I gave up about a month ago in trying to counter them in a lot of other forums.

good luck i commend you for still trying though!

[Tuor]

Won't matter they will wiggle right around it and come up with a whole new set of "excuses" and conspiracies.

I gave up about a month ago in trying to counter them in a lot of other forums.

good luck i commend you for still trying though!

I know this might look a little rude, but i just don't care for them, but i do care for those that are reading their shitty posts and might be influenced by a guy that is posting missinformation or even manipulated information, the other forum i post has that sort of people.

[Forogil]

Great post. To add to it....

...Not to mention most of the "delay" of new medicine/treatments is not even waiting for "data" or "long term effects".

Some is, and you can see that in these vaccines.

Many of the vaccines were originally authorized with about 4 weeks before 1st and 2nd dose.

It seems that wasn't done because it was the best - but because it was the minimum that seemed plausible, and reducing the time between doses by one week in the trial meant waiting one less week for the data.

Notice that many now use longer intervals - up to 12 weeks and some scientists say that normally a bit longer interval is better.

For profit companies also slow down the process because they have "pipelines" on products so they don't end up with massive spikes up/down of their revenue and profits. There is the law of diminishing returns so they don't produce the kinds of work they did with the vaccine very often. They did it this time because of public pressure and Massive promised funding from the Govt.

A good reason to have pipelines is because they are limited in key personnel and resources so they cannot do everything at once. That is true both for profit companies and non-profits.

Second its because of the product approval "waiting line". Very few treatments/medications/Vaxx get rushed to the front of the line and have massive amount of resources put towards the "approval" process.
Most of the time approval process is one of the longest parts because they are on a very long list of folks in front of them. They also don't have anywhere near the amount of data they have on the vaccine.

I would say that's also an oversimplification.

Yes, the application was directly moved to the front of the queue - but the approval persons also worked during thanksgiving (as I recall) in the US with reading those long documents, which is far from normal. However, when several thousands die each week it makes sense.

And to say that there was more data than normal doesn't seem entirely true. The EU have given the vaccines a conditional marketing authorization for one year - the condition was to provide more data (part of ongoing studies).

That doesn't mean that there wasn't enough data for the decision - and we don't need to know how well the vaccine will protect in 12 months time to know that it is better than giving nothing right now.

[PhaelixWW]

Many of the vaccines were originally authorized with about 4 weeks before 1st and 2nd dose.

It seems that wasn't done because it was the best - but because it was the minimum that seemed plausible, and reducing the time between doses by one week in the trial meant waiting one less week for the data.

Notice that many now use longer intervals - up to 12 weeks and some scientists say that normally a bit longer interval is better.

Better for your immunity in 14 weeks, but not better for your immunity in 4 weeks. You can't discount that waiting longer also makes you more vulnerable for the added 10 weeks.

Yes, the application was directly moved to the front of the queue - but the approval persons also worked during thanksgiving (as I recall) in the US with reading those long documents, which is far from normal. However, when several thousands die each week it makes sense.

It was more like a hundred thousand a week, globally, so even more sense.

[Forogil]

Better for your immunity in 14 weeks, but not better for your immunity in 4 weeks. You can't discount that waiting longer also makes you more vulnerable for the added 10 weeks.

True for that person, but it also means that another person can get that dose in the meantime - so it might be better overall.

But all that depend on data on immunity and partial immunity that wasn't available; and still isn't really available - and anyway is changing with new variants.

It was more like a hundred thousand a week, globally, so even more sense.

Yup.

[Rasulis]

In the US, in addition to CDC, we also have dataset from hundreds of County and State level health departments. So I am not sure what other information do we need at this stage to convince the anti-vaxxers.

Updated data on COVID cases among vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals

• San Francisco is one of the highest vaccinated cities in the world with 78% of the eligible population fully vaccinated, so breakthrough cases are expected.
• 7-Day Rolling Average of Case Rate: 20.5 per 100,000 SF residents (as of 08/13/2021)
• 7-Day Rolling Average of Case Rate- Not Fully Vaccinated: 36.2 per 100,000 SF residents who are not fully vaccinated
• 7-Day Rolling Average of Case Rate- Fully Vaccinated: 13.8 per 100,000 SF residents who are fully vaccinated
• Case-based Hospitalization Rate- Not Fully Vaccinated: 79.3 per 1,000 cases
• Case-based Hospitalization Rate- Fully Vaccinated: 10.9 per 1,000 cases
• 45 clinically validated fully vaccinated San Franciscans who have ever been hospitalized due to COVID-19 (0.0065% or 6.5 per 100,000 of fully vaccinated population of San Francisco.)
• There have been 2 deaths of fully vaccinated people that are due to complications from COVID-19 (as of 08/17/2021). Both over 90 and had substantial co-morbidities.

What else do we need to know?

[kreationkin]

If you allow me, i'll post your text in another forum, one that has loads of antivaxxers.

Please be my guest, if it helps one person feel more comfortable getting vaccinated it will have been worth it.

However, I don't fully agree with the risk of dying. ...

.... True, but these vaccines are a bit special as they are given to hundreds of millions healthy person during the first year.
That's why they were tested in large groups, and why it's important to investigate any problems - but apart from some minor issues it seems to work.

I was being extremely US-Centric in my post and for that I thank you for the follow up. I haven't looked at data for the vaccines which haven't been approved here and won't make any claims to their safety or effectiveness. If the options in other countries/continents are lacking I hope the mRNA vaccines get wider global distribution soon.

While it is true that vaccines being given to healthy people means that the bar for benefit outweighing harm is higher than in the case of say Lipitor (atorvastatin), I would argue that FDA approval history of Shingrix (a herpes zoster vaccine) suggests we have far more data with the mRNA vaccines already. Shingrix was approved with a group of roughly 30k participants over 5 years (to get to roughly 400 or so cases of shingles) between two trial arms for use in healthy people to prevent a largely survivable condition for which we already had a vaccine (admittedly an inferior one). Pfizer for example had over 40k participants and while it hasn't yet run for it's full 2 years the early data are remarkable.

As @Zan15 mentioned a lot of the delay in bringing drugs to market is not due to a need for additional data, we find out about long term effects from post-marketing surveillance. More to the point, someone who is debating it's safety has to also contend with the post marketing surveillance of the roughly 200 million Pfizer doses and 140 million Moderna doses which have already been administered within the US and the incredibly low rate of severe reactions. Could some unknown side effect occur 30 years from now? Sure. But there is no reason to believe it wouldn't also have occurred with covid-19 infection. And, given that, no reason to avoid vaccination given the significant short term risks of covid-19.

[Rasulis]

On Friday, an alert issued to healthcare providers in Mississippi said that the state's Poison Control Center received an influx of calls from individuals with potential exposure to ivermectin - a product used to treat roundworms and other parasites - which they had taken to treat or prevent COVID-19 infection.

While ivermectin can be used by both people and animals, at least 70% of recent calls were related to ingestion of animal formulations of the anti-parasitic agent from livestock supply centers, the alert said.

Symptoms associated with ivermectin toxicity include rash, nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, neurological disorders, and hepatitis.

Worried about the long term effect of vaccines, but take medicine used to deworm horses.

Don't trust medical science, but go to the hospitals when they are in pain and dying.

Interesting conundrum.

My wife was a vet before she went into real estate. She had one comment "Idiots."

[postman1782]

Worried about the long term effect of vaccines, but take medicine used to deworm horses.

Don't trust medical science, but go to the hospitals when they are in pain and dying.

Interesting conundrum.

My wife was a vet before she went into real estate. She had one comment "Idiots."

Oh, and don't forget, they are literally willing to go to jail as well with fake vaccination cards, instead of getting a free one with a safe vaccination. Cuz you know, to them it is poison, or the reason that the virus is spreading. Because they like to lie like that.

[Zan15]

Oh, and don't forget, they are literally willing to go to jail as well with fake vaccination cards, instead of getting a free one with a safe vaccination. Cuz you know, to them it is poison, or the reason that the virus is spreading. Because they like to lie like that.

and... complaining about Big Pharma making huge profits off the vaccine....

meanwhile the cost of the Cow Worms med is 10-25x (if you forget the vaxx is free to end patient). ivermectin depending what web site you search is 35-90 dollars for a 30-90 day supply. the pills cost a dime or so to make since they have been around forever. Other countries are paying pennies per pill vs the us paying 10+.

Of course when you then show them how little Big Pharma is actually making per shot vs all their other meds/vaxx they get real quite real fast.


Can't wait to see what their nutty nuts come up with if the full approval comes out today.