1. #24561
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    My workplace is back to requiring regular tests despite 99% of us being vaccinated.

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  2. #24562
    Legendary! unfilteredJW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    My workplace is back to requiring regular tests despite 99% of us being vaccinated.
    After me raising hell the last couple of days, a few of my coworkers decided to come forward and said they didn’t like the way the restaurant was handling the increase of both business and covid protections.

    They’ve decided to go back to spacing tables, masking, and a heap load of other precautions. It doesn’t make the ones that won’t vaccinate get them, but it certainly is a step forward.
    Blessed are the fornicates, may we bend down to be their whores. Blessed are the rich, may our labor deliver them more.
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  3. #24563
    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    It is one, though probably not the way he means it.
    Which is what I’m saying. Glad people agree.

  4. #24564
    The Insane Masark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belize View Post
    So I had an idea. You know those dart guns they use to tranquilize animals at a distance?

    Load those up with vaccines, then set them loose in under-vaccinated communities.
    Or build the Medic's syringe gun and go from doing drive-through vaccinations to drive-by vaccinations.

    Warning : Above post may contain snark and/or sarcasm. Try reparsing with the /s argument before replying.
    What the world has learned is that America is never more than one election away from losing its goddamned mind
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  5. #24565
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    Or build the Medic's syringe gun and go from doing drive-through vaccinations to drive-by vaccinations.
    Just in case someone is insane and actually considers it.

    It's not a good idea (apart from ethical issues): you cannot guarantee that you hit the muscles (might hit a vein etc), and you also need to make sure the vaccinated are ok for 15 minutes at least.

  6. #24566
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    High elevation which limit the range and load carrying capacity of helicopters. Merak (pictured below) which is a major community is located at elevation 3,500 m. It is my understanding that there are small settlements located at even higher elevations. As high as 4,000 m. Back when I was there, getting to Merak was a two-day hike. I heard that they built a new road. Now it is only a day hike. No vehicle access.

    [IMG]snip[/IMG]
    Chinook could do it
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  7. #24567
    Pit Lord Tuor's Avatar
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    Pfizer med for covid-19 treatment on phase 2 of trials.
    https://twitter.com/pfizer/status/1420474141686255624

    Vaccine mixing tested (AZ+Sputnik).
    https://twitter.com/sputnikvaccine/s...17800794066946


  8. #24568
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Isreal to give boosters to over 60s who had their last vaccine 5 months ago as immune response is shown to lower over time.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-58021386

    CDC Reports vaccinated people spread Delta variant (but don't suffer as severe an illness) as unvaccinated people. And that it's as transmissible a chicken pox (that is, very.)
    https://edition.cnn.com/2021/07/29/p...ons/index.html

    Unwelcome news as this is for those looking to vaccinations for herd immunity, the important thing is that vaccines will still greatly reduce the chance of you ending up in hospital or dead, and should 100% get it done. But you shouldn't let having been jabbed mean you take your guard down on this or be thinking it'll be over any time soon.

  9. #24569
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Unwelcome news as this is for those looking to vaccinations for herd immunity
    If everyone would get the jab, the amount of severe cases would be handled by the healthcare system no problemo and we would effectively have ended the whole Covid 19 craze.

    It doesn't matter that the Virus is still there if all it causes are mild cases.

    Problems arise if you have ~30% of the population that is too paranoid to get the vaccine.

  10. #24570
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    If everyone would get the jab, the amount of severe cases would be handled by the healthcare system no problemo and we would effectively have ended the whole Covid 19 craze.

    It doesn't matter that the Virus is still there if all it causes are mild cases.

    Problems arise if you have ~30% of the population that is too paranoid to get the vaccine.
    It still spreads well in a highly vaccinated population. And there are still questions in most countries over whether to vaccinate children. Finally, trying to keep on top of boosters every 6 months is a lot of work.

    We need better treatments, because on this basis, it isn't going away through vaccination alone.

  11. #24571
    I am Murloc! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    It still spreads well in a highly vaccinated population.
    Not really, no. It can spread, but not "well".


    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    And there are still questions in most countries over whether to vaccinate children.
    We're still waiting on some studies to finish, but this question will hopefully have a good answer before too much time has passed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Finally, trying to keep on top of boosters every 6 months is a lot of work.
    We don't need boosters every 6 months. We may not need boosters, period; that remains to be seen. We've covered this before, but antibody levels waning is normal and fine, as long as the memory B- and T-cells continue to do their job.


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  12. #24572
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Not really, no. It can spread, but not "well".



    We're still waiting on some studies to finish, but this question will hopefully have a good answer before too much time has passed.



    We don't need boosters every 6 months. We may not need boosters, period; that remains to be seen. We've covered this before, but antibody levels waning is normal and fine, as long as the memory B- and T-cells continue to do their job.
    Did you read the articles I linked above, from actual reputable sources?

    I’m not speculating, as you are. It’s what Isreal is doing, it’s what the CDC have observed.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2021-07-30 at 04:49 PM.

  13. #24573
    Some interesting data between fully vaccinated vs. not fully vaccinated population of SF.

    Currently 77% of eligible (12 +) SF residents have received 2 doses. The number is 70% for all residents (including 12 -).

    Positivity rate is currently around 12%. Higher than the State. The high positivity rate is attributed to the high testing rate and the City’s high population density (18,000 per square mile). Positivity among fully vaccinated population is 5%. Among not fully vaccinated 4-fold of that.

    Number of hospitalized Covid patient 65. Two fully vaccinated. No 12 - in the hospital.

    Number of fully vaccinated hospitalized Covid patient per capita is 0.3 per 100,000 of fully vaccinated resident. For not fully vaccinated, the number is 31.8 per 100,000 of not fully vaccinated resident (excluding 12-).

    Two Covid-related deaths in July. Both not fully vaccinated.
    Last edited by Rasulis; 2021-07-30 at 05:19 PM.

  14. #24574
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    CDC Reports vaccinated people spread Delta variant (but don't suffer as severe an illness) as unvaccinated people. And that it's as transmissible a chicken pox (that is, very.)
    https://edition.cnn.com/2021/07/29/p...ons/index.html
    This seems to contradict earlier studies
    https://www.healthline.com/health-ne...-delta-variant
    that suggested the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine was 64-88% effective in preventing infection (including asymptomatic); and I don't see how uninfected persons spread the disease.

    I don't think all of the previous studies are plain wrong.

    I see a number of possibilities:
    • The new study is plain wrong
    • Misleading reporting: the problem only occurs for the Janssen (or J&J) vaccine, not for the other ones.
    • Misleading reporting, e.g. vaccines might reduce the risk of getting infected by 80% but the new study suggests that if you are infected you spread the disease as if you weren't vaccinated. (I doubt that is true, since the reduced risk of hospitalization suggest a lower viral load and thus it would seem that you spread the disease less.)
    • It's actually a new variant based on Delta.

    Oh, and whether it spreads like chickenpox is unclear. Wikipedia has R0 for Delta at 5-9.5 and for chickenpox at 10-12.
    The reference for Delta is https://context-cdn.washingtonpost.c...f75165.#page=1

    This also confirms that it is misleading reporting.
    Delta variant vaccine breakthrough cases may be as transmissible as unvaccinated cases
    So, perhaps 80% reduction of cases - but the remaining 20% may be as transmissible if they were unvaccinated; but still 80% reduction in spread overall.
    (And note: "may".)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Unwelcome news as this is for those looking to vaccinations for herd immunity, the important thing is that vaccines will still greatly reduce the chance of you ending up in hospital or dead, and should 100% get it done. But you shouldn't let having been jabbed mean you take your guard down on this or be thinking it'll be over any time soon.
    Still true.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    Positivity rate is currently around 12%. Higher than the State. The high positivity rate is attributed to the high testing rate and the City’s high population density (18,000 per square mile). Positivity among fully vaccinated population is 5%. Among not fully vaccinated 4-fold of that.
    That seems partially wrong.

    High testing rate usually lowers the positivity rate, because people who think they have very mild cases get tested, contacts get tested even without symptoms, and possibly mandatory testing of non-suspected cases. And 12% is a high positivity rate.
    (High population density I can understand.)

  15. #24575
    I am Murloc! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Did you read the articles I linked above, from actual reputable sources?

    I’m not speculating, as you are. It’s what Isreal is doing, it’s what the CDC have observed.
    Hi. Welcome to the thread. You must be new here, because you don't seem to be aware of the countless times I've posted sources for the same damned things.

    No, none of what I've said is speculation.

    FYI, your first sources literally states:
    Experts say it is not yet clear whether a third dose will reduce Covid cases.
    But how about when I posted information on the same subject:
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Or when I referenced the same post here. Or when I posted a similar article from Yale here. Or how about yet another article I posted almost 10 months ago. And then there's the pre-print study I posted about the subject over a year ago.

    My answer has been thoroughly sourced, thanks.


    And as for the second source, you're not reading it correctly, either, as it says:
    The Delta coronavirus variant surging across the United States appears to cause more severe illness and spread as easily as chickenpox, according to an internal document from the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

    The document -- a slide presentation -- outlines unpublished data that shows fully vaccinated people might spread the Delta variant at the same rate as unvaccinated people.
    So no, the CDC isn't "reporting" this, as you stated in your initial post. It's merely a slide in a presentation about unpublished material.

    And, to be very clear, CNN's reporting is misleading. If you bother to follow the link to WaPo, you'll notice that CNN's statement of the claim is not exactly the same as what WaPo is reporting, which is:
    It cites a combination of recently obtained, still-unpublished data from outbreak investigations and outside studies showing that vaccinated individuals infected with delta may be able to transmit the virus as easily as those who are unvaccinated. Vaccinated people infected with delta have measurable viral loads similar to those who are unvaccinated and infected with the variant.
    This doesn't mean that vaccinated people will become infected with the delta strain as easily as non-vaccinated people, it just means that once a breakthrough infection occurs (at a much, much lower rate than for non-vaccinated people), the infected person can still transmit virons at the same level. This still means that vaccinated people will greatly limit overall transmissibility simply because they're becoming infected less often.

    So you'll pardon me if I continue to combat even well-intentioned misinformation on the subject of a global pandemic.


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    and genius is that genius has its limits."

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  16. #24576
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Hi. Welcome to the thread. You must be new here, because you don't seem to be aware of the countless times I've posted sources for the same damned things.

    No, none of what I've said is speculation.

    FYI, your first sources literally states:
    Of course it does. They're not exactly going to guarantee it (and it'll be a fucking disaster if it doesn't help), but on the other hand..

    https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n664

    We've been talking about the need for boosters since long before this article from March. Indeed pretty much since the first confirmed reinfections last summer we've had questions about the longevity of vaccine efficacy. That should hardly come as a shock. The only shocking thing is how frequently Israel have chosen to administer it.

    At this point, suggesting we may not need boosters at all sounds more like disinformation and potentially damaging in the long term.

    But how about when I posted information on the same subject:

    Or when I referenced the same post here. Or when I posted a similar article from Yale here. Or how about yet another article I posted almost 10 months ago. And then there's the pre-print study I posted about the subject over a year ago.

    My answer has been thoroughly sourced, thanks.
    Older sources, that no longer check out. Especially with the frequency of mutation.

    And as for the second source, you're not reading it correctly, either, as it says:

    So no, the CDC isn't "reporting" this, as you stated in your initial post. It's merely a slide in a presentation about unpublished material.

    And, to be very clear, CNN's reporting is misleading. If you bother to follow the link to WaPo, you'll notice that CNN's statement of the claim is not exactly the same as what WaPo is reporting, which is:

    This doesn't mean that vaccinated people will become infected with the delta strain as easily as non-vaccinated people, it just means that once a breakthrough infection occurs (at a much, much lower rate than for non-vaccinated people), the infected person can still transmit virons at the same level. This still means that vaccinated people will greatly limit overall transmissibility simply because they're becoming infected less often.

    So you'll pardon me if I continue to combat even well-intentioned misinformation on the subject of a global pandemic.
    Whether the article is misreporting or not doesn't change that they confirmed the data, which is based on Delta rather than other variants. We can see in Israel and other highly vaccinated countries that there is clear breakthrough (and Beta has higher breakthrough against the AZ vaccine). I'm not disputing whether it's lower than in the unvaccinated population, but it is there and it spreads like wildfire and absolutely does not change my statement that:

    the important thing is that vaccines will still greatly reduce the chance of you ending up in hospital or dead, and should 100% get it done. But you shouldn't let having been jabbed mean you take your guard down on this or be thinking it'll be over any time soon.
    Maybe you should stop trying so hard to be right, and focus on what I'm actually trying to discuss. That the approach can't be that vaccines will ultimately do all the work.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2021-07-30 at 06:32 PM.

  17. #24577
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Of course it does. They're not exactly going to guarantee it (and it'll be a fucking disaster if it doesn't help), but on the other hand..

    https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n664

    We've been talking about the need for boosters since long before this article from March. Indeed pretty much since the first confirmed reinfections last summer we've had questions about the longevity of vaccine efficacy. That should hardly come as a shock. The only shocking thing is how frequently Israel have chosen to administer it.
    I note that this is in the British context (it's BMJ after all) where many have the AZ vaccine that seems to be slightly less effective against Delta. This will also be relevant in the EU; even if AZ isn't purchased anymore (afaik) it has still been used a lot.
    In the US there seems to be a related concern for the Janssen (or J&J) vaccine: https://www.pharmalive.com/booster-m...y-taking-them/ - but some suggest that it is not needed.

    This indicates that there are two reasons for a booster: the vaccine effect waning over time, and using an updated vaccine based on the Delta-variant. In the latter case we obviously need updated vaccines! As far as I understand it is fairly simple to modify the mRNA and viral-vector vaccines for a new variant - but I don't know how much regulatory hurdle there will be.

    We don't know how the effect has waned over time - T-cells likely last longer (perhaps a year, perhaps a decade), but it's problematic to test and starting the vaccination once we know it may be too late to start production and give everyone a jab.
    However, a different perspective is that it's a bit of fear-mongering from the pharma-companies to sell more.
    It may be that Israel will once more be used as a guinea-pig to see if a booster helps.

    Additionally boosters are actually problematic as vaccine supplies are limited world-wide. Should we use doses for children in the developed world (who are unlikely to get very ill), as boosters for the elderly (who are already fairly well protected), or send them to the poorer countries so that all adults in the world have been fully vaccinated once (even if many of the adults in those countries are younger and thus less likely to be seriously ill - but the health-care system is lacking)?

  18. #24578
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    It still spreads well in a highly vaccinated population. And there are still questions in most countries over whether to vaccinate children. Finally, trying to keep on top of boosters every 6 months is a lot of work.

    We need better treatments, because on this basis, it isn't going away through vaccination alone.
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/leaked-cd...194348973.html

    The above is a video rather than printed material, but basically the title pretty much summarizes it pretty well:

    Title: Leaked CDC report says COVID Delta variant is as contagious as chickenpox

    The CDC seems to recently have increased the expected danger levels of the delta variant, especially in transmissibility.

    My own feeling is that the delta variant is slowly getting better at its job, and is thus gaining in both transmissibility and also in power. I think it is also gaining in power because the percentage of breakthrough cases is steadily increasing over time. On the other hand, both India and UK have recently had dramatic decreases in number of cases and deaths recently. No one really knows what really is happening. It's possible that certain people have a predisposition to getting a worse version of the virus - and once they have been infected and either survived or not, well the rest of the population is far more resistant to it. But this is just conjecture. This WOULD explain both the explosions in the virus in UK and India as well as the dramatic decline afterwards. Another possibility is that masking and social distancing work greatly. When numbers are low, masks come off, social distancing goes away, and the virus thrives. When numbers are high, masks go back on, social distancing comes back in style, and the virus tapers off.

    Whatever is really happening, it seems likely that the US will have an explosion in the number of cases that will both rise exponentially, and then fall exponentially after that. The only real question is how many people will die, and how many people will have long lasting medical ailments after recovering from the virus.

    Be safe. Be one of the survivors.

  19. #24579
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    That the approach can't be that vaccines will ultimately do all the work.
    Vaccines are only there to accelerate the process until every one of us has had Covid. Either vaccinated or not.
    Then the virus is known to our immune systems and no longer poses a healthcare system crashing threat.
    If your country has a healthcare worth a damn, that is.

    It doesn't matter how many cases there are, it doesn't matter how fast it spreads, if the probability of ending up in the ICU is negligible.

  20. #24580
    Elemental Lord Santti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Vaccines are only there to accelerate the process until every one of us has had Covid. Either vaccinated or not.
    Then the virus is known to our immune systems and no longer poses a healthcare system crashing threat.
    If your country has a healthcare worth a damn, that is.

    It doesn't matter how many cases there are, it doesn't matter how fast it spreads, if the probability of ending up in the ICU is negligible.
    Why would you assume everyone will get Covid? This is not our first vaccination. Has everyone had smallpox? Polio?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ransath View Post
    Money laundering, especially prior to his election? I couldn't give a flying fuck.

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