1. #28761
    Quote Originally Posted by Tentim View Post
    More flipper kids but to each their own. You are not going to convince me that we should let medical practices be waived because we are scared.
    No medical practices were waved only administrative burdens and red tape. Not to mention basically they got to jump the "line" in the approval process.

    Go submit a drug/vaccine/etc and see how long the wait is to even get it reviewed. that is the 2nd biggest reason on why things take so long.

    The 1st is corporate drug pipeline. they are in no hurry to get things done as fast as possible since they like to have an even revenue stream vs popping these things out on an irregular basis. Profit and stock price over saving lives yah know

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    The problem with the covid vaccine now is that it's a total dud compared to the smallpox vaccine that's used to inoculate against monkeypox. So it's lacklustre effectiveness combined with two years of outright coercion has been squandering a lot of goodwill that's now required to get people to vaccinate against a disease that can be successfully stopped in its tracks by vaccination.

    Zero covid was bullshit, it was a dumb idea two years ago, it still is now, and it will never not be a dumb idea.

    But zero monkeypox? Absolutely. Very achievable. If we act fast, despite the covid vaccine poisoning the well of public opinion.
    you mean the republican/trump/right wing poisoning of the well of public opinion right?

    Since we've had vaccines that do not prevent catching the flu for decades but no one really had this problem with the flu vaxx
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  2. #28762
    Quote Originally Posted by Zan15 View Post
    you mean the republican/trump/right wing poisoning of the well of public opinion right?
    Trump was the first one who overpromised the effect of the vaccine yes. He called it the Trump vaccine. But I wish he would be the only one. That more adult people would take over. And instead, so did Rochelle Walensky, Joe Biden and Fauci. They all presented this as the solution to the pandemic, they all told us that vaccinated people couldn't spread it around.

    It did nothing of the sort. In fact the only person who warned that the mutations would escape the vaccine, Geert van Denbosche was reviled by the media. Kicked from social media platforms. Guess, what the mutations did end up escaping the vaccine, reducing its benefits to noise within all the other confounding variables.

    And what angers me the most is that they rather than admit and rectify, they continued in a desperate attempt to save face, pretending the vaccine was as effective as the results could reach in the most generous interpretation.

    Since we've had vaccines that do not prevent catching the flu for decades but no one really had this problem with the flu vaxx
    If you equated the covid vaccine to the flu vaccine one year ago you would be considered an antivaxxer as you would question the feasibility of herd immunity. Remember that joke? Herd immunity.

    But indeed, not all vaccines are equal. That's the dumpster fire the CDC created here. The smallpox is excellent. Unlike this covid vaccine, the smallpox works against various viruses and does in fact contribute significantly to herd immunity. It's been effectively used in the congo for decades to this extend.
    Last edited by Iain; 2022-08-01 at 07:32 PM.

  3. #28763
    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    If you equated the covid vaccine to the flu vaccine one year ago you would be considered an antivaxxer as you would question the feasibility of herd immunity. Remember that joke? Herd immunity.
    Wasn't that what all the "purebloods" have been pushing from the get-go?

    I mean we can quibble about communication on the benefits of the vaccine from political sources, but medical sources have been fairly consistent in their messaging about it. And even while it doesn't prevent a covid infection, there remains no non-medical reason not to get one to reduce the severity of the infection and your (the royal you) chance of hospitalization.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    That's the dumpster fire the CDC created here. The smallpox is excellent. Unlike this covid vaccine, the smallpox works against various viruses and does in fact contribute significantly to herd immunity. It's been effectively used in the congo for decades to this extend.
    Unfortunately, not all viruses are equal and consequently not all vaccines work the same. Even if some folks think that's how it should work for some reason.

  4. #28764
    The antivaxxers pushed herd immunity through infection, even Boris Johnson attempted that in one of his press briefings. The people who mindlessly take the official institutes as their one source of truth went for herd immunity through vaccination. Rachel Maddow literally told her viewers that the virus would stop at every vaccinated person, that it couldn't be passed on. The partisan hack.

    Unfortunately, not all viruses are equal and consequently not all vaccines work the same. Even if some folks think that's how it should work for some reason.
    That's indeed the blatant lie that was paddled by authorities and formerly respectable sources. And it's about time we grow up and accept that we've been had.

  5. #28765
    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    The antivaxxers pushed herd immunity through infection, even Boris Johnson attempted that in one of his press briefings. The people who mindlessly take the official institutes as their one source of truth went for herd immunity through vaccination. Rachel Maddow literally told her viewers that the virus would stop at every vaccinated person, that it couldn't be passed on. The partisan hack.



    That's indeed the blatant lie that was paddled by authorities and formerly respectable sources. And it's about time we grow up and accept that we've been had.
    So basically, "Because some non-medical officials were incorrect in their framing of the vaccine and its purpose/effectiveness WE CAN'T TRUST THE VACCINE!"?

    Because that's what I'm getting. Meanwhile, my vaccinated friends who got covid are all stoked with their vaccines as they've largely had mild symptoms they got over in a week. Because vaccines still work. Got questions? Talk to your doctor, why on earth are you listening to Rachel Maddow, Tucker Carlson, or anyone else who's decidedly not a medical professional and has precisely zero medical training to inform their opinions?

  6. #28766
    It's an ineffective vaccine, that's the honest observation. That there are idiots who believe that you mutate into a newt after the first jab doesn't mean that the effectiveness is anything to be proud of.

    And that effectiveness is something that needs to be communicated clearly now. People have to understand that the smallpox vaccine is a top tier vaccine and the covid vaccine is a bottom tier vaccine. Indeed I struggle thinking of a vaccine that performed worse than the ones we banked everything on.

    listening to Rachel Maddow, Tucker Carlson, or anyone else who's decidedly not a medical professional and has precisely zero medical training to inform their opinions?
    Or Fauci, or Rochelle Walensky, or the president of the United States of America. None of them issued a retraction of what they said. That's the erosion of trust I'm talking about. If Trump supporters or Tucker Carlson viewers aren't convinced by the vaccine then it's just another day that ends with an Y, but that's not the standard I'm holding to the rest.

  7. #28767
    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    It's an ineffective vaccine, that's the honest observation.
    Ineffective at what? IIRC the medical community has never implied it was full protection from infection, but that it was always about reducing the severity of infection. Which it's actually very good at, as we've got extensive data showing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    And that effectiveness is something that needs to be communicated clearly now.
    It is, largely. It just depends on where you get your information from. Getting it from some talking head on a opinion show on the TV? Probably not exactly a great source of accurate medical information. Getting it from social media posts shared by your mates? Again, probably not exactly a great source of accurate medical information. Going to the respective health agency websites (CDC, NIH, many hospital networks like Kaiser etc.) or speaking with your doctor is where you should be getting your information from so you're not potentially falling victim to a game of telephone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    People have to understand that the smallpox vaccine is a top tier vaccine and the covid vaccine is a bottom tier vaccine.
    Citation/qualification needed*

    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    Or Fauci, or Rochelle Walensky, or the president of the United States of America. None of them issued a retractiour own doctor)n of what they said.
    A retraction from what? I don't believe Fauci or Walensky have ever said the vaccine fully prevents covid. Yes, politicians have flubbed messaging and their communications teams have cleaned up afterwards, but doctors have been fairly consistent.

    https://www.foxnews.com/media/fauci-...well-infection

    Best I can find is this Fox video trying to dunk on Fauci for "admitting" that the vaccine doesn't protect "overly well" against infection, without any source for claims from him otherwise.

  8. #28768
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    With, or without vaccines, covid-19 is the new normal. The virus isn't going anyway soon... or later. This thing has came to stay.

    As for the vaccines, we better start getting yearly boosts for new strains, because for the time being we all got the one developed for the original sars-cov-2 strain, which is no longer ideal.

  9. #28769
    It feels like a child hiding their bad grades from their parents, preventing the parents from intervening and redoubling the child's efforts to do better next time. Except this time it's from the institutional authorities that we tasked to provide us with the best information available and make expert decisions on which policies to implement. It's embarrassing and it's terrifying at the same time. They're career politicians trying to save face and it comes that the detriment of the people.

    Ineffective at what? IIRC the medical community has never implied it was full protection from infection, but that it was always about reducing the severity of infection. Which it's actually very good at, as we've got extensive data showing.
    Yes they did. They absolutely did. You are letting them get away with misinforming the public at such a heinous level. These people are still in their positions they were entrusted with. They are abusing it. Rachelle Walensky proclaimed that vaccinated people don't get sick and don't carry the virus. She even went around telling the public that vaccinated people didn't have to socially distance and didn't have to wear masks.

    Citation/qualification needed*
    The smallpox vaccine offers sterilizing immunity. Just like the polio vaccine it has shown itself to be able to eradicate these diseases from most of the world entirely. To put this on the same level of the covid vaccine would be doing it such a disservice. People are now experiencing that the vaccine isn't protecting them the way that was promised to them. But the smallpox vaccine will.

    It would be a massive blunder to plant this flag in the covid vaccine. If the monkeypox keeps spreading, and godforbid it becomes more virulent, then we're all going to need this jab. This time it actually protects people from getting the virus.

    All the logic that was used to push the covid vaccine on the public, it all appies to monkeypox right now. Masking, washing your hands, socially distancing and indeed vaccinating. It prevents the spread where the covid vaccine could not.

    I don't trust the institutes to be honest enough to face up to the fact that they weren't able to deliver the solution they promised, and that means they won't instill the confidence into the actual solution they're sitting on, the smallpox vaccine.

    It's such a horrible and unnecessary situation. Communication around monkeypox is already a dumpster-fire with people like Carlson coining it 'schlong-covid', it only prevents the people at the highest exposure situations, that's indeed the gay community, but also martial arts, and other contact-sports or people who visit lots of concerts and clubs. They need this vaccine right now lest they start spreading it to their peers.

  10. #28770
    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    Yes they did. They absolutely did. You are letting them get away with misinforming the public at such a heinous level. These people are still in their positions they were entrusted with. They are abusing it. Rachelle Walensky proclaimed that vaccinated people don't get sick and don't carry the virus. She even went around telling the public that vaccinated people didn't have to socially distance and didn't have to wear masks.
    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00450-z

    Looking back at reporting on early vaccine data, yes, data suggested it affords some protection against infection. Yet I'm struggling to find anything showing health organizations declaring that it would protect against infection. The common line is that it reduces the chance based on data from clinical studies.

    Your bit about Walensky seems based off of misinformation - https://www.reuters.com/article/fact...-idUSL1N2PX1IZ

    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    The smallpox vaccine offers sterilizing immunity. Just like the polio vaccine it has shown itself to be able to eradicate these diseases from most of the world entirely. To put this on the same level of the covid vaccine would be doing it such a disservice. People are now experiencing that the vaccine isn't protecting them the way that was promised to them. But the smallpox vaccine will.
    Again, not all vaccines are equal. This has been a thing since vaccines were first developed. Not all infections vaccines are designed to protect against are equal, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    It would be a massive blunder to plant this flag in the covid vaccine. If the monkeypox keeps spreading, and godforbid it becomes more virulent, then we're all going to need this jab. This time it actually protects people from getting the virus.
    Great, and regardless of if the vaccine prevents infection or simply reduces the severity of infections, jab me, vaccine daddy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    All the logic that was used to push the covid vaccine on the public, it all appies to monkeypox right now. Masking, washing your hands, socially distancing and indeed vaccinating. It prevents the spread where the covid vaccine could not.
    Except that masking, social distancing, and vaccines do work at lowering the spread of covid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    I don't trust the institutes to be honest enough to face up to the fact that they weren't able to deliver the solution they promised, and that means they won't instill the confidence into the actual solution they're sitting on, the smallpox vaccine.
    So don't? Ask your primary care physician for guidance, as they're going to know you best and be able to provide you with contextual information.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    It's such a horrible and unnecessary situation. Communication around monkeypox is already a dumpster-fire with people like Carlson coining it 'schlong-covid', it only prevents the people at the highest exposure situations, that's indeed the gay community, but also martial arts, and other contact-sports or people who visit lots of concerts and clubs. They need this vaccine right now lest they start spreading it to their peers.
    For you, apparently. Not for the rest of us who haven't fallen for extensive misinformation. I couldn't care less what Tucker has to say beyond him being one of the primary sources of dangerous misinformation, anyone getting health advice from Tucker Carlson deserves their health outcomes.

  11. #28771
    Except that masking, social distancing, and vaccines do work at lowering the spread of covid.
    There is a day and night difference between 'lowering the spread' and eradicating a disease. People have seen what these measures do against an airborne disease. They're rightfully not impressed. And yet the Obama administration was able to successfully stop an ebola outbreak dead in its track twice through these measures. People have to understand that this is a different matter with a contact/fomite based disease and that distinction is being obfuscated right now. It's dangerous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Your bit about Walensky seems based off of misinformation - https://www.reuters.com/article/fact...-idUSL1N2PX1IZ
    That's Reuters doing damage control. She announced it on the Rachel Maddow show. Those were her words. She couldn't even be bothered to walk back her own words, let alone do it on the same platform she announced.

    This is exactly what I mean. A rectification is absolutely worthless if it's done in the most quiet way possible in a different context than the false claim that was initially made. And for a reputable news sources like Reuters to cover her tracks is just downright revolting. This is access journalism more concerned with the reputation of an official than with accurately informing the public.

    It erodes trust in the institutions. We can't have that right now. Not while there's yet another gruesome disease around the corner.

    I like going to festivals, I like going to concerts and I'm hanging out in gym where people don't wipe their gear (not an euphemism), I'm planning to get this monkeypox vaccine the first chance I get.

    Any anyone who claims the covid vaccine is of the same quality is worse than an antivaxxer as far as I'm concerned.
    Last edited by Iain; 2022-08-01 at 08:49 PM.

  12. #28772
    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    That's Reuters doing damage control.
    Pointing out two different clips were spliced together is "damage control"?

    First clip on MSNBC is her relaying what the data was showing at the time. Science evolves as we learn more, which seems really hard for some people to process as they expect that scientists/doctors will know everything about a new virus and new vaccine immediately. Which simply isn't how reality works.

    Second clip is from 5 months later, with additional data and variants (hello Delta!) altering what the data showed.

    Again, just because lots of folks are science-illiterate doesn't mean much beyond them being science illiterate. If they read up on covid and vaccines once at the very start of vaccines rolling out and then never again, yeah, they're going to be working with outdated information.

    You're trying to pawn off the personal responsibility of people to keep themselves informed on the people who are trying to inform them with the best quality information they have at any given time.

  13. #28773
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    You're trying to pawn off the personal responsibility of people to keep themselves informed on the people who are trying to inform them with the best quality information they have at any given time.
    In this case that personal responsibility would include chasing down experts who are being booted off all official channels and social media platforms for not toeing Walensky's line. Geert van den Bosche warned everyone against mutations escaping the vaccines and not only is that exactly what's happened, it's also what's currently being used to exonerate all these false claims made prior.

  14. #28774
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    In this case that personal responsibility would include chasing down experts who are being booted off all official channels and social media platforms for not toeing Walensky's line.
    This just seems like conspiracy nonsense. You're pointing to people who don't know anything about vaccines or COVID-19, and thinking their ignorance is "good enough", and that their willful ignorance existing means that there's disinformation out there about the efficacy of vaccines.

    I can just pop on to my convenient government website that goes over this and get a quick overview; https://www.canada.ca/en/public-heal...ccination.html

    And it sure seems like the rhetoric you're claiming is being pushed just flat-out isn't. They clearly qualify the effectiveness of the vaccines, but that vaccination is still effective and important, because it isn't just about preventing infection, it's about the reduction in severity of symptoms.


  15. #28775
    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    In this case that personal responsibility would include chasing down experts who are being booted off all official channels and social media platforms for not toeing Walensky's line.
    What are you even talking about? Again, the data on the vaccine changed over time and consequently the health guidance changed with it. That's literally working as intended.

    Who's getting booted off platforms? Because I can bet big money that they're booted off not for disagreeing with Walensky or any other medical professional, but probably because they were telling folks to take horse dewormer and shit, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    Geert van den Bosche warned everyone against mutations escaping the vaccines and not only is that exactly what's happened, it's also what's currently being used to exonerate all these false claims made prior.
    https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/co...vanden-bossche

    The guy pushing doomsday bullshit when the fact that the virus will mutate over time has been well established since forever? And that said mutations, in line with most viruses, will trend towards increases in how contagious they are while reducing mortality, as covid largely has?

    Again, the vaccine was never supposed to "kill" covid. It was supposed to reduce its severity and make it more manageable so we don't continue running into problems with overflowing hospitals and a lack of medical professionals to care for patients as we saw at the start of all this.

    Or was there something else he said that we should be considering?

  16. #28776
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    This just seems like conspiracy nonsense.
    What is the conspiracy here? Edge here is saying that mutations escaping the vaccines is working as intended:

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    What are you even talking about? Again, the data on the vaccine changed over time and consequently the health guidance changed with it. That's literally working as intended.
    It's also why covid will remain endemic. And while it's endemic it will continue to mutate towards higher virulence which includes vaccine evasion. That means that the people who rely on these vaccines, the sick and elderly are especially fucked when a high vaccination rate is driving the mutation into lower vaccine effectiveness.

    You can strawman Geert all you like but this is what he's claiming. It's the same mechanism of antibiotic resistance and why doctors aren't just prescribing antibiotics to anyone who asks.

    And all of this is the opposite of vaccines that offer sterilizing immunity against contact-based viruses. Viruses that should not ever become endemic. The official institutions are not making the distinction here. They're still busy gaslighting people about what they promised.


    From the article:
    https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/co...vanden-bossche
    More broadly, data from the vaccine clinical trials and from countries that have vaccinated a large percentage of their population show a significant reduction in cases and mortality. The vaccines are working.
    Here we go again. The author believes zero-covid was still a viable path. Which makes sense because the article is from march 2021. Because that which Geert was warning about, resistant mutations, hadn't occurred yet, this author had the audacity to call Geert a doomsday pseudo-scientist.

    It's unfair, an it's arrogant. Especially when the public officials are hiding behind this mechanism to explain their abject failure.
    Last edited by Iain; 2022-08-01 at 09:30 PM.

  17. #28777
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    The problem with the covid vaccine now is that it's a total dud compared to the smallpox vaccine that's used to inoculate against monkeypox. So it's lacklustre effectiveness combined with two years of outright coercion has been squandering a lot of goodwill that's now required to get people to vaccinate against a disease that can be successfully stopped in its tracks by vaccination.

    Zero covid was bullshit, it was a dumb idea two years ago, it still is now, and it will never not be a dumb idea.

    But zero monkeypox? Absolutely. Very achievable. If we act fast, despite the covid vaccine poisoning the well of public opinion.
    ???

    The reason we no longer have millions dying is because the vaccines allow the body to fight off the infection. The job of a vaccine is to strengthen your body in the fight against a virus.


    There's no magical shot that keeps a virus from entering the body. Vaccines lower the chance of spread and severe illness by not allowing a virus to wreck havok. You teach your body how to fight off infection but fighting off infection still takes a toll on your body and some viruses can still put up a fight.


    Example of a widely use vaccine prior COVID.

    Chickenpox vaccinations are standard now. It doesn't prevent getting chickenpox but it will suppress the virus and lower the chances of getting shingles later or mitigate shingles.


    COVID vaccines prevent hospitalization and all we know may stave off some future illness directly or indirectly related to COVID.

    Resident Cosplay Progressive

  18. #28778
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    ???

    The reason we no longer have millions dying is because the vaccines allow the body to fight off the infection. The job of a vaccine is to strengthen your body in the fight against a virus.
    The reason people stopped dying is because Omicron saved our sorry asses. What we were doing up to that point was a miserable failure. Even countries that were considered exemplary to the West, that had the most stringent air-tight measures and highest vaccine uptake, like Israel were doing poorly until Omicron came around.

    Example of a widely use vaccine prior COVID.

    Chickenpox vaccinations are standard now. It doesn't prevent getting chickenpox but it will suppress the virus and lower the chances of getting shingles later or mitigate shingles.
    Oh man I hadn't even considered the Chickenpox angle muddying the waters even further. It should be made clear that chickenpox is an entirely different virus. It's understandable that people will start associating the smallpox (monkeypox) vaccine with chickenpox which also would lower their trust in how effective this vaccine is.

    You are right that chickenpox vaccines only suppress the virus. But the smallpox vaccine does far better than that.

    This is a communication disaster.
    Last edited by Iain; 2022-08-01 at 09:38 PM.

  19. #28779
    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    It's also why covid will remain endemic. And while it's endemic it will continue to mutate towards higher virulence which includes vaccine evasion. That means that the people who rely on these vaccines, the sick and elderly are especially fucked when a high vaccination rate is driving the mutation into lower vaccine effectiveness.
    Absolutely wrong. Again, the vaccines continue to show that they protect against severe infection. So if covid continues on the current path of being increasingly contagious while being less severe, we're on track to have it be endemic and a problem that comes in waves, but not one that overwhelms hospitals and results in massive death tolls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    You can strawman Geert all you like but this is what he's claiming. It's the same mechanism of antibiotic resistance and why doctors aren't just prescribing antibiotics to anyone who asks.
    Elaborate, please. Why hasn't "Super-polio" popped up yet? "Super-smallpox"? How about "Hyper-measles"? Bacteria and viruses are different and are not modeled the same as a result.

    You just name dropped him, but I'm curious why you think he's a more trustworthy source than the rest of the medical community writ large?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    And all of this is the opposite of vaccines that offer sterilizing immunity against contact-based viruses. Viruses that should not ever become endemic. The official institutions are not making the distinction here. They're still busy gaslighting people about what they promised.
    Again, not all vaccines can provide sterilizing immunity, and that's just fine. Taht doesn't make them any less beneficial to individuals or society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    From the article:
    https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/co...vanden-bossche

    Here we go again. The author believes zero-covid was still a viable path.
    From the snippet you quoted? Because I'm reading that whole paragraph and the paragraphs around it, and they seem to be very clear that it's no silver-bullet but that, as the data rightly showed, it protected both against symptomatic infection and serious infections requiring hospitalizations.

    Which is, again, how it's been framed by medical professionals from the start. Some have been cautiously optimistic it would perform better based on early data, but that's about as close as we get to what you're claiming.

    Again, again, getting your medical information from an opinion show host on cable TV is not the best of sources. Getting your information about an new virus we're still learning a lot about once and then never bothering to check again, is a personal problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    Because that which Geert was warning about, resistant mutations, hadn't occurred yet, this author had the audacity to call Geert a doomsday pseudo-scientist.
    Because there's no evidence this will occur.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    It's unfair, an it's arrogant. Especially when the public officials are hiding behind this mechanism to explain their abject failure.
    No, you're just unreasonably expecting them to speak perfectly on issues and know every detail immediately and never need to update their guidance/best practices as we learn more.

    Again, stop getting information from talking heads on TV and go to the source: Respective health agencies or, even better, your primary care physician, if you have questions or concerns.
    Last edited by Edge-; 2022-08-01 at 09:47 PM.

  20. #28780
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    No, you're just unreasonably expecting them to speak perfectly on issues and know every detail immediately and never need to update their guidance/best practices as we learn more.
    Yes I am! Why on earth would you be rooting for public officials that are anything less than forthright to the public? These are important, highly influential well-paid jobs. These people aren't the protagonists of our lives, they're not selfless guardians watching over our health. They're calculating career opportunists, which is only fine as long as they're proving that they're able to be honest and transparent about what they're doing. If not then then they deserve nothing more than a cardboard box to clear out their desk with.

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