1. #19561
    Quote Originally Posted by Nellise View Post
    I don't think they're hiding numbers. Many measures are put in place when counties hit certain numbers. But I'd be pissed off if I were a restaurant or bar owner far from campus that got my business shut down because of these students who won't come anywhere near my place. That's what this is for (the county in question is larger than NYC in area).
    Now, no. But under the new rule, if there are 2 groups of 10 kids each quarantining on campus in two different locations, that's just 2 cases. So it does fuck with the data, which seems to be the whole purpose.

    The students may not be directly coming to your restaurant or bar, but they don't have to. They just have to break quarantine and interact with literally anyone else who may go to the restaruant or bar, which would be pretty damned easy.

    Hell, that dumb wedding in Maine? Some of the people who died didn't even go, they got infected from others who attended the wedding. And I think they were even seeing transmissions 3-4 people down the line, so someone who got the virus got it from someone who got it from someone else who got it from someone at the wedding.

    You can't treat this shit like it's all happening in isolation or that people, especially college kids, will follow all the rules. If folks were following all the rules to begin with, this wouldn't be a fuckin problem.

  2. #19562
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    So in essence: it is a false statement.
    I do agree with you on the psychological aspect. They use this half-truth in order to encourage a higher compliance.
    Its a double edged sword though. We have the science proving their statements wrong. So it will have the opposite effect. More people will start to become skeptical of what the CDC is saying and will start to ignore it because they have been caught in a lie. This is certainly a case of honesty is the best policy. You bombard them with facts and data to get them to comply. If you're struggling to get them to comply with all that, than a bold faced lie is just going to make it far worse and possibly undo any good. Could make it so that even fewer people listen in the end because they can no longer trust them.
    Quote Originally Posted by scorpious1109 View Post
    Why the hell would you wait till after you did this to confirm the mortality rate of such action?

  3. #19563
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    Its a double edged sword though. We have the science proving their statements wrong. So it will have the opposite effect. More people will start to become skeptical of what the CDC is saying and will start to ignore it because they have been caught in a lie. This is certainly a case of honesty is the best policy. You bombard them with facts and data to get them to comply. If you're struggling to get them to comply with all that, than a bold faced lie is just going to make it far worse and possibly undo any good. Could make it so that even fewer people listen in the end because they can no longer trust them.
    It's really a case of a little bit seeing through the lines and giving benefit of the doubt.

    The statements are more often than not social engineering, the purpose is to compel people into falling in line.

    You have hordes of people who don't even care about science behind it and it's actually the best, compared to so many Dunning-Kruger effect practitioners.

    So yes, if doctors tell them to put mask on - the best way is to put the damned mask on, because even a shitty home-made mask is still a whole lot better than absolutely nothing and at least here most people use surgical masks because they are cheap as dirt anyway, making all this home-made BS pointless.


    I'm actually a bit appalled at some people in this thread keeping this edgy approach of all or nothing when it comes to masks. It's not all or nothing - even a simple cloth mask is already a lot better than not giving a shit and if you have more people wearing masks, even masks like that - you will already save a lot of transmissions there.

    So yes, if CDC or whatever other organization, has to engineer the message a bit to encourage people to at least do something to help, I'm all for it.

  4. #19564
    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/usps-...b6ba9eb6eb1214

    Part of reporting on broader USPS related issues from WashPo, but this is highly relevant to the thread -

    The United States Postal Service drafted an ambitious proposal in April to send a pack of five face masks to every residential address in the U.S. before top White House officials killed the idea, according to an analysis by the Washington Post of documents acquired by the watchdog organization American Oversight.

    American Oversight, which obtained over 9,000 pages related to the USPS via the Freedom of Information Act, released the documents in late August. One of the records, entitled “U.S. Postal Service to Deliver Face Coverings to Every American Household,” is a draft of a press release indicating that USPS planned to “distribute 560 million reusable cotton face masks on behalf of the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) to every residential delivery point in America, beginning in areas which HHS has identified as experiencing high transmission rates of COVID-19 and to workers providing essential services throughout the nation during this pandemic.”

    Composed in April, the draft stated that “letter carriers, rural carriers and others will deliver one pack of five face coverings to each residential delivery point and PO Box,” with the first shipments intended to reach residents that month. The Orleans and Jefferson parishes of Louisiana were targeted for delivery first, followed by Washington’s King County, Michigan’s Wayne County, and New York.

    The draft was never finalized due to the White House axing the plan, the Washington Post reported, citing senior administration officials who asked to be anonymous.

    There was concern from some in the White House Domestic Policy Council and the office of the vice president that households receiving masks might create concern or panic,” one of the officials told the Post.

    As an alternative, HHS instituted “Project: America Strong,” a system that has seen about 600 million masks distributed to critical infrastructure companies, hospitals and community groups, rather than individuals.
    USPS tried to help save the country. The current administration seemed to have little interest in that approach because it continues to look like they think that the more Americans killed by the virus, the better.

  5. #19565
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    It's really a case of a little bit seeing through the lines and giving benefit of the doubt.

    The statements are more often than not social engineering, the purpose is to compel people into falling in line.

    You have hordes of people who don't even care about science behind it and it's actually the best, compared to so many Dunning-Kruger effect practitioners.

    So yes, if doctors tell them to put mask on - the best way is to put the damned mask on, because even a shitty home-made mask is still a whole lot better than absolutely nothing and at least here most people use surgical masks because they are cheap as dirt anyway, making all this home-made BS pointless.


    I'm actually a bit appalled at some people in this thread keeping this edgy approach of all or nothing when it comes to masks. It's not all or nothing - even a simple cloth mask is already a lot better than not giving a shit and if you have more people wearing masks, even masks like that - you will already save a lot of transmissions there.

    So yes, if CDC or whatever other organization, has to engineer the message a bit to encourage people to at least do something to help, I'm all for it.
    Again though, people will Know its a lie. That is the issue. Now, if we didn't have it plastered all over the internet, social media and the news, I could see it working. But if the doctor is telling you to do something that Everything else is contradicting, you're going to raise questions and probably not go back to that doctor.

    We already know that no, a simple bandana isn't doing anything. That was a most recent study. Bandana and other thin masks, aren't helping. It was plastered all over since they are trying to make a push to get people to wear something effective. Here in the US, we can't get surgical masks.

    I get what you're saying, and social engineering could help. However, it needs on one crucial point to work, that is that the target doesn't know any better. If the target knows better, than you do more harm than good. That is why we are seeing a push back here in the US. People are seeing so much conflicting information on the masks. Having the CDC lie isn't helping that issue. Its making things worse when those of us wearing a mask try to get others to do so. Its akin to knocking down our argument before we make it.

    Just imagine trying to tell someone that the CDC said the mask will protect them. They will just counter "well, before they said it didn't, so which is it?" or they will point to the other studies and the multitude of sources saying its for the safety of others, not ourselves.

    Its not giving the benefit of the doubt. Its harming the cause. You cannot lie with this when the studies and facts are literally everywhere and all over the TV. If you go around lying, you're going to sow doubt about your further statements and slow down any effort to stop it. If they don't care about science, they aren't going to care about the CDC to begin with. So even that angle is moot.
    Quote Originally Posted by scorpious1109 View Post
    Why the hell would you wait till after you did this to confirm the mortality rate of such action?

  6. #19566
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    We already know that no, a simple bandana isn't doing anything. That was a most recent study. Bandana and other thin masks, aren't helping. It was plastered all over since they are trying to make a push to get people to wear something effective. Here in the US, we can't get surgical masks.
    Again, this is not accurate - https://www.nbc12.com/2020/07/01/ban...sk-study-says/

    A bandana is the least effective face covering, short of one of the neck gators or whatever that are actually worse than wearing nothing at all apparently, but they provide more protection than nothing. They absolutely "do something" and the thinner masks absolutely offer more protection for those around you compared to no mask at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    I get what you're saying, and social engineering could help. However, it needs on one crucial point to work, that is that the target doesn't know any better. If the target knows better, than you do more harm than good. That is why we are seeing a push back here in the US. People are seeing so much conflicting information on the masks. Having the CDC lie isn't helping that issue. Its making things worse when those of us wearing a mask try to get others to do so. Its akin to knocking down our argument before we make it.
    This is nonsense. People thinking they "know better" are fucking dumb. People listening to their crazy uncle's memes on Facebook over virologists and infectious disease experts are similarly dumb.

    The push back isn't based on fact or science, it's purely emotional and ideologically driven.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    Just imagine trying to tell someone that the CDC said the mask will protect them. They will just counter "well, before they said it didn't, so which is it?" or they will point to the other studies and the multitude of sources saying its for the safety of others, not ourselves.
    I'll tell them that their earlier guidance against it was twofold - Because they were still learning a lot about the virus at the time, and because there was a shortage of masks (due to the administrations failure to prepare despite advanced warning) and the guidance was to keep them for medical professionals and others who would need them more.

    And then I'd ask them why they think that information can't change over time, and what their source is on the conflicting information.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    Its not giving the benefit of the doubt. Its harming the cause. You cannot lie with this when the studies and facts are literally everywhere and all over the TV. If you go around lying, you're going to sow doubt about your further statements and slow down any effort to stop it. If they don't care about science, they aren't going to care about the CDC to begin with. So even that angle is moot.
    Again, it's literally not. They're saying to wear masks, they're not saying that every type of mask is equally as effective. And again, short of those silly neck gators, they're absolutely 100% correct that anything from a single-use surgical mask to a bandana you wash offers you and those around you more protection than no face covering at all.

    The ones listening to the lies aren't listening to the CDC in the first place.

  7. #19567
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    And again, short of those silly neck gators, they're absolutely 100% correct that anything from a single-use surgical mask to a bandana you wash offers you and those around you more protection than no face covering at all.
    What's a "neck gator"? Never heard that term.

  8. #19568
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    What's a "neck gator"? Never heard that term.
    I guess it's "neck gaiter", as I've never had to actually write it out. It's the thing hunters often wear in the US - https://www.amazon.com/neck-gaiter/s?k=neck+gaiter

    But apparently I was wrong, as further studies have shown that while it's still generally not super effective (especially the more porous materials) it's still better than nothing at all - https://medical.mit.edu/covid-19-upd...8/neck-gaiters

  9. #19569
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    What's a "neck gator"? Never heard that term.
    Neck gaiter. I used them while cycling in winter to protect my nose from the cold wind. Otherwise you ended up with constant dripping runny nose while riding which is disgusting and red chaffed nose at the end of the ride.


  10. #19570
    Scarab Lord PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    What's a "neck gator"? Never heard that term.
    If the term sounds weird, it's at least partly because they're the neck version of shoe gaiters, which predate neck gaiters by, like, centuries.




    "The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  11. #19571
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Ah okay. Thanks

  12. #19572
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Womp womp. What part of:
    <..>
    ...do you not understand?
    You're delusional. I was talking in summer about summer. And since you're busy deflecting from the world as a whole to parts of the world, where's the graph of USA+Brazil? What are you hiding?


    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    DPR isn't even recognized as a country, so I have absolutely no idea whether or not they'd be able to afford the $20-30 million USD or so per year it would cost to immunize everyone in the country. The cost of the Russian vaccine is reportedly around $10-15 USD per dose.
    We probably won't. Indeed we're not a "real" country, but I'm told our healthcare minister is a competent woman, and she probably is, seeing how we have about 1.2x population of Delaware + Rhode Island combined on almost exactly same territory, but only about 1/15 total cases as those two combined, with probably 1/15000 money spent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    It's not 2004. People have lives, jobs, families etc

  13. #19573
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    I'm pretty sure that I read it somewhere, but I can't find source now, so feel free to take that statement with a grain of salt. I admit that there are many different types of vaccines, and that they hardly all have the same level of effectiveness.
    As previously stated, it's not the case for the flu. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0016809 https://www.cdc.gov/flu/professional...nogenicity.htm (that's why you shouldn't get flu vaccine too early).
    HPV-vaccines seems to be noted as an exception in being more effective than infection.

    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    I would, however, argue that it's at least fairly true that vaccines will have a larger average rate of effectiveness than infection/recovery, simply due to the fact that some people get and recover from a virus with only a light case of infection. Such light cases may often be asymptomatic, or only lightly symptomatic, and they are being shown to produce a weaker immune response.
    For Sars-Cov-2 it may be true (due to the high number of lightly symptomatic cases - which is unusual), but we don't know yet.

    Another is that if we are talking about yearly vaccinations that means that safety concerns become even more important, as risks are magnified by more than order of magnitude.
    Last edited by Forogil; 2020-09-17 at 08:47 PM.

  14. #19574
    https://twitter.com/deesnider/status...86822817099778

    Dee Snider of Twisted Sister is not pleased with the asshole Florida teenagers using "We're Not Gonna Take It" as the background music for their pathetic little Target parade. What a guy.

    - - - Updated - - -

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/17/h...e=articleShare

    A heavily criticized recommendation from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention last month about who should be tested for the coronavirus was not written by C.D.C. scientists and was posted to the agency’s website despite their serious objections, according to several people familiar with the matter as well as internal documents obtained by The New York Times.

    The guidance said it was not necessary to test people without symptoms of Covid-19 even if they had been exposed to the virus. It came at a time when public health experts were pushing for more testing rather than less, and administration officials told The Times that the document was a C.D.C. product and had been revised with input from the agency’s director, Dr. Robert Redfield.

    But officials told The Times this week that the health department did the rewriting itself and then “dropped” it into the C.D.C.’s public website, flouting the agency’s strict scientific review process.

    “That was a doc that came from the top down, from the H.H.S. and the task force,” said a federal official with knowledge of the matter, referring to the White House task force on the coronavirus. “That policy does not reflect what many people at the C.D.C. feel should be the policy.”

    The document contains “elementary errors” — such as referring to “testing for Covid-19,” as opposed to testing for the virus that causes it — and recommendations inconsistent with the C.D.C.’s stance that mark it to anyone in the know as not having been written by agency scientists, according to a senior C.D.C. scientist who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of a fear of repercussions.
    Shockingly, the nonsensical testing guidance saying you should only get tested if you present covid symptoms was not written by scientists at the CDC. More on why the US government remains incapable of leading a fight against the pandemic.

    - - - Updated - - -

    https://www.courant.com/coronavirus/...ih4-story.html

    More anti-mask protesters. I'm still struggling to accept that people this deeply ignorant exist, and treat mask mandates as some kind of attack on their freedoms as if they're unable to continue to shout nonsense conspiracies through a fabric mask or something.

  15. #19575
    Scarab Lord PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynep View Post
    You're delusional. I was talking in summer about summer.
    <stage whisper:> It's still summer...

    ...and cases are still rising. You're objectively wrong, and have been all along.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cynep View Post
    And since you're busy deflecting from the world as a whole to parts of the world, where's the graph of USA+Brazil? What are you hiding?
    Who's deflecting? Hiding what? I posted the graphic for the whole world, which includes USA and Brazil. I can't believe I've had to point that out to you multiple times in a row now.

    On second thought, I can absolutely believe it, as you've seemingly deliberately ignored all the relevant data simply because you don't like the unavoidable conclusions to which they lead.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cynep View Post
    We probably won't. Indeed we're not a "real" country, but I'm told our healthcare minister is a competent woman, and she probably is, seeing how we have about 1.2x population of Delaware + Rhode Island combined on almost exactly same territory, but only about 1/15 total cases as those two combined, with probably 1/15000 money spent.
    I sincerely doubt there's even a significant fraction of the international travel heading in/through/near DPR (or even the Ukraine as a whole), as through the Delaware and Rhode Island areas, which lie on a line that goes through Washington DC, Baltimore, Philadelphia, New York, and Boston.

    That's a heck of a false equivalency.
    "The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  16. #19576
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/usps-...b6ba9eb6eb1214

    Part of reporting on broader USPS related issues from WashPo, but this is highly relevant to the thread -

    USPS tried to help save the country. The current administration seemed to have little interest in that approach because it continues to look like they think that the more Americans killed by the virus, the better.
    It would not even cost "that" much, comparatively, for the USA. Especially compared to the previous money aid program.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  17. #19577
    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    my live-in sister tested positive for covid-19. she coughed in my face this morning cause she was mad. now i'm worried i have it.
    r.i.p. alleria. 1997-2017. blizzard ruined alleria forever. blizz assassinated alleria's character and appearance.
    i will never forgive you for this blizzard.

  18. #19578
    Quote Originally Posted by breadisfunny View Post
    my live-in sister tested positive for covid-19. she coughed in my face this morning cause she was mad. now i'm worried i have it.
    Get tested and quarantine yourself, seriously. Hopefully you're all fine, but this isn't shit to play around with.

    And then look to replace your sister with a roommate who isn't an asshole, because holy shit. People have been charged with assault for that kind of behavior.

  19. #19579
    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Get tested and quarantine yourself, seriously. Hopefully you're all fine, but this isn't shit to play around with.

    And then look to replace your sister with a roommate who isn't an asshole, because holy shit. People have been charged with assault for that kind of behavior.
    i can't i live at my parents. i called the soc for work and they told me to quarantine for 14 days. i plan to go in to medical provider's tomorrow and get tested. health department said i have to quarantine till october 8th.
    Last edited by breadisfunny; 2020-09-18 at 04:24 PM.
    r.i.p. alleria. 1997-2017. blizzard ruined alleria forever. blizz assassinated alleria's character and appearance.
    i will never forgive you for this blizzard.

  20. #19580
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    Eh?

    What does Flu deaths from previous years in the UK, in particular Derbyshire, have to do with the covid-19 pandemic in the US?
    This is a representative plot of the second wave during the 1918 Spanish flu.

    Here's Belfast and London
    https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cp...deathrates.jpg

    Here's New York, Berlin, Paris, London:
    https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/f34d2...fit=max&dpr=2&

    Here's Newfoundland:
    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/cms/...fig-0002-m.jpg

    The aggregate worldwide looks the same. The second wave is expected to start ramping up in October.. What do you see happening to our daily new cases... in many states which have been declining we're seeing the pace of decline slowing down and some are showing the first signs of ticking back up. Right on fucking cue.

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