Mega-Thread: Coronavirus Pandemic

[Mayhem]

People die in traffic too, you don't find many people being terrified of driving in cars.
People die from smoking, drugs, alcohol etc... yet many still shovel the crap into their bodies.

Traffic accidents, smoking, drugs, and alcohol usually aren't contagious.

[Krastyn]

You seem a little tilted since I didn't respond to your last comment, which is especially funny as other posters have already forwarded me information that make me believe that the accusations against the US are probably false. You're free to continue to shitpost, though.

You mean like the information I keep linking you, including theexact same tweet that PhaelixWW linked, which you have now accepted? It's hilarious you accuse me of shiposting, when you accepted something someone else posted, yet completely gloss over the fact that I linked it to you before that, and you ignored it. It shows you haven't been discussing in good faith.

You've been supporting the idea of superpowers, like the United States, using predatory tactics to procure their own supplies at the expense of developing countries.

Citation needed.

I've argued that what you're accusing the US of, hasn't been shown as true, and in fact with every passing day the "numerous" accusations are being shown to be false, or intercommunicated.

YOU just continue to strawman me.

You even refused to state that the actions alleged, if true, were abhorrent, even though they will result in a lot of foreign deaths.

Keep saying things that didn't happen. I said when I know exactly what happened, I'll pass judgement. If you want to have a discussion on theoretical situations, that is a separate discussion. List out the full details and I'll comment. This doesn't seem like the thread for that though.

I don't misunderstand how procurement works, but I doubt the brokers are passing along bad information. Now it seems more like some people have been quote sniped.

You don't seem to understand it. The fact that you're stating whether you deal with a broker or not is irrelevant, shows this. Every step you add between the supplier and buyer adds time for your quote to get "sniped". It's not that their sending bad information at the time, it is that the information is only valid at the time of sending. The more layers you add to the communication chain, the more time there is for someone else to buy the product. Some suppliers will let you put things on "hold". Some just say "this is what we currently have, it may change by the time you place an order".

The person not going through a broker will be able to buy something faster than someone going through a broker.
The person ordering with an approved purchase order in hand will be able to order something faster than someone needing to go through an approval process. (Something that say, the Berlin police would likely have to do).

This leads me to believe you must consider it OK to allow minorities and the impoverished to go without medical supplies so long as they're not domestic citizens.

Nope. Never said that. Once again, one of your fantasies in your head.

You then later began to back away from this when I called out the obvious racial connotations that such a situation would entail.

I backed away from the position I never held? You've been doing nothing but building strawman after strawman.

I've done what I set out to do, which was clear misinformation. The Canadian accusations were false, the French ones were false, the German ones are looking to be the same, as even the Berlin police are saying they were outbid. Brazil said they were outbid.

So until something new comes up, you and Endus will have to put your pitchforks down.

[Endus]

I cant understand people who say that in the end most of us will become infected. No, that will not happen. Not even in the worst pandemics that ravaged humanity the majority was infected.

Or it should be better to say, that should not happen if we (as humannity) takes this seriously.

Early estimates suggested that COVID-19 could spread to 40-70% of the global population. The Spanish Flu epidemic hit about 30% of the global population, in an era when travel was MUCH more limited, which would have helped lower infection rates relative to the modern world.

Without a vaccine, COVID-19 isn't going anywhere, so it's more a question of when, not if.

[Trunksee]

Early estimates suggested that COVID-19 could spread to 40-70% of the global population. The Spanish Flu epidemic hit about 30% of the global population, in an era when travel was MUCH more limited, which would have helped lower infection rates relative to the modern world.

Without a vaccine, COVID-19 isn't going anywhere, so it's more a question of when, not if.

At what cost are we slowing the spread down though? In the long run the consequences of these lockdowns and quarantines are going to cripple most of the worlds government funding and economies. There will be little to no money left after this for social projects. If people think we are coming out of this and things are just going to go back to normal people are sadly mistaken. UBI, SNAP, medicare, medicade, and any type of universal healthcare are either dead in the water now or are going to be taking massive cuts after this. We have already dumped way to much money on this with out much coming in to cover any of it.

[Fincayra]

Early estimates suggested that COVID-19 could spread to 40-70% of the global population. The Spanish Flu epidemic hit about 30% of the global population, in an era when travel was MUCH more limited, which would have helped lower infection rates relative to the modern world.

Without a vaccine, COVID-19 isn't going anywhere, so it's more a question of when, not if.

Especially when idiots aren't even obeying stay at home orders, so shutting down the economy basically did fuck all since the virus is still spreading potentially thanks to that. In a strange twist of fate, I get to listen to my 60 year old dad yell at his 80 year old parents about going out all the time.

The fun part is people naming all these other things that have much higher death rates and how we don't shut down the economy . They don't realize we either have mechanisms that are suppressing the deadliness of those things or are at least making them less likely to kill (aka airbags in a car) The coronavirus has no vaccine, and the treatments for it are ridiculed simply because TRUMP mentioned them. I don't know whether it was from Trump's weak stance on the virus early on, or from her own other independent bad info, but my mom up until even a few weeks ago thought the pandemic was nothing to be scared of. There's hundreds of thousands around the world currently inflicted with the virus wishing that was the case...

- - - Updated - - -

At what cost are we slowing the spread down though? In the long run the consequences of these lockdowns and quarantines are going to cripple most of the worlds government funding and economies. There will be little to no money left after this for social projects. If people think we are coming out of this and things are just going to go back to normal people are sadly mistaken. UBI, SNAP, medicare, medicade, and any type of universal healthcare are either dead in the water now or are going to be taking massive cuts after this. We have already dumped way to much money on this with out much coming in to cover any of it.

yep, my fiscal conservative views pretty much died right when the government passed that 2 trillion dollar aid package. We had to do it, but there's nothing anyone's gonna say to make me like that we did it. I don't think conservatives even exist in politics anymore anyway.

[Themius]

At what cost are we slowing the spread down though? In the long run the consequences of these lockdowns and quarantines are going to cripple most of the worlds government funding and economies. There will be little to no money left after this for social projects. If people think we are coming out of this and things are just going to go back to normal people are sadly mistaken. UBI, SNAP, medicare, medicade, and any type of universal healthcare are either dead in the water now or are going to be taking massive cuts after this. We have already dumped way to much money on this with out much coming in to cover any of it.

The entire world is going through this you are aware right?

We have had crises before and usually what comes out of it is more social spending not less.

[Endus]

At what cost are we slowing the spread down though? In the long run the consequences of these lockdowns and quarantines are going to cripple most of the worlds government funding and economies. There will be little to no money left after this for social projects. If people think we are coming out of this and things are just going to go back to normal people are sadly mistaken. UBI, SNAP, medicare, medicade, and any type of universal healthcare are either dead in the water now or are going to be taking massive cuts after this. We have already dumped way to much money on this with out much coming in to cover any of it.

"Yeah, people will die, but what about the economy?"

Misanthropic worship of the almighty dollar is the stupidest goddamn meme in modern society.

If the economy doesn't serve the people's welfare, it is itself a disease to be fought and destroyed. If you're raising a question of whether we have to pick between people's lives and the economy, the only ethical answer is to build an economy that does not necessitate human suffering, because the one you're backing explicitly does.

[Deja Thoris]

The coronavirus has no vaccine, and the treatments for it are ridiculed simply because TRUMP mentioned them.

There isn't a treatment. Trump is ridiculed because hes touting something that as of yet has no scientific backing and is a hail mary. You offer hope by showing compassion and what the federal government is doing to help its citizens. You state facts, not vague hand waving gestures. He can't even tell people when they will get their stimulus money but spends an inordinate amount of time peddling unproven drugs.

It's irresponsible at best to tout this kind of shit. I personally think its criminal. The drug hes touting has very serious side effects and it will kill people if everyone just starts popping it.

So yea, keep believing "treatments" are ridiculed because its him.

[Endus]

The entire world is going through this you are aware right?

We have had crises before and usually what comes out of it is more social spending not less.

Particularly since it mostly seems like it's Americans freaking out about their economy, with their lack of social support systems, whereas countries like Canada are just knuckling down and boosting support and we're mostly doing just fine, thanks.

The American response to COVID-19 has arguably been the worst of any single country. Minus perhaps China, but that's an uncertainty stemming from China's restrictions on information, so while we're pretty damned sure they're covering stuff up, the exact scale remains to be seen before it can properly be assessed.

[Acidbaron]

What does asymptomatic really mean?

Let’s start with the basics. Dr. Maria Van Kerkhove, head of the emerging diseases and zoonoses unit at the World Health Organization, told me that the WHO so far has found few truly asymptomatic cases, in which a patient tests positive and has zero symptoms for the entire course of the disease. However, there are many cases where people are “pre-symptomatic,” where they have no symptoms at the time when they test positive but go on to develop symptoms later.

“Most of the people who were thought to be asymptomatic aren’t truly asymptomatic,” said Van Kerkhove. “When we went back and interviewed them, most of them said, actually I didn’t feel well but I didn’t think it was an important thing to mention. I had a low-grade temperature, or aches, but I didn’t think that counted.”


Link

[Mayhem]

At what cost are we slowing the spread down though? In the long run the consequences of these lockdowns and quarantines are going to cripple most of the worlds government funding and economies. There will be little to no money left after this for social projects. If people think we are coming out of this and things are just going to go back to normal people are sadly mistaken. UBI, SNAP, medicare, medicade, and any type of universal healthcare are either dead in the water now or are going to be taking massive cuts after this. We have already dumped way to much money on this with out much coming in to cover any of it.

What makes you think there will be little to no money left?

[Endus]

There isn't a treatment. Trump is ridiculed because hes touting something that as of yet has no scientific backing and is a hail mary. You offer hope by showing compassion and what the federal government is doing to help its citizens. You state facts, not vague hand waving gestures. He can't even tell people when they will get their stimulus money but spends an inordinate amount of time peddling unproven drugs.

It's irresponsible at best to tout this kind of shit. I personally think its criminal. The drug hes touting has very serious side effects and it will kill people if everyone just starts popping it.

So yea, keep believing "treatments" are ridiculed because its him.

I mean, there's treatment. Proper treatment at this stage involves managing symptoms and hoping the victim pulls through, though; that means ICU and ventilators and such for the worst cases.

If you mean supposed cures, yeah, that's all horse shit and quackery at this point.

[Mayhem]

What does asymptomatic really mean?

Let’s start with the basics. Dr. Maria Van Kerkhove, head of the emerging diseases and zoonoses unit at the World Health Organization, told me that the WHO so far has found few truly asymptomatic cases, in which a patient tests positive and has zero symptoms for the entire course of the disease. However, there are many cases where people are “pre-symptomatic,” where they have no symptoms at the time when they test positive but go on to develop symptoms later.

“Most of the people who were thought to be asymptomatic aren’t truly asymptomatic,” said Van Kerkhove. “When we went back and interviewed them, most of them said, actually I didn’t feel well but I didn’t think it was an important thing to mention. I had a low-grade temperature, or aches, but I didn’t think that counted.”


Link

Yeah, people are really really bad at understanding symptoms and also don't want to be seen as a hypochondriac.

[Endus]

What makes you think there will be little to no money left?

The same "oh, you poors don't have 3-6 months of living expenses in your savings? You need a better life plan" conservatives all seem to support a system where companies and nations can't handle any hiccups in their revenue flow without complete collapse, because they don't hold corporations to the same (any) standards as they do people in need.

So companies having to consider maybe investing in adapting their business model to account for things, that's an impossible ask and there's no money and how dare you.

Yes, it's completely fucking ridiculous.

[Deja Thoris]

Particularly since it mostly seems like it's Americans freaking out about their economy, with their lack of social support systems, whereas countries like Canada are just knuckling down and boosting support and we're mostly doing just fine, thanks.

The American response to COVID-19 has arguably been the worst of any single country. Minus perhaps China, but that's an uncertainty stemming from China's restrictions on information, so while we're pretty damned sure they're covering stuff up, the exact scale remains to be seen before it can properly be assessed.

Agreed. The difference is responses is startling.

Most of the EU are paying workers wages, up to a point, this includes small business owners and people in the gig economy. They have free health care and most implemented social distancing and lock downs "relatively" quickly.

America has no safety net for people. Low vacation allowances and no sick pay / job security sorta encourage you to go to work when sick because you need to put food on the table. If you get sick then even with healthcare its costly. The country has been slow to implement social distancing, and its not enforced across the whole country. A good anecdote was the USA is like a swimming pool where you're allowed to piss in certain parts of it - it still gets around! The final straw is the central government response has been nothing short of criminal.

[Acidbaron]

At what cost are we slowing the spread down though? In the long run the consequences of these lockdowns and quarantines are going to cripple most of the worlds government funding and economies. There will be little to no money left after this for social projects. If people think we are coming out of this and things are just going to go back to normal people are sadly mistaken. UBI, SNAP, medicare, medicade, and any type of universal healthcare are either dead in the water now or are going to be taking massive cuts after this. We have already dumped way to much money on this with out much coming in to cover any of it.

This is what happens when you start caring more about revenue than about dealing with the crisis, also there's this illusion created by certain media outlets that there is a choice in the matter, eventually a choice will have to be made. But the US is not in a position yet to even consider this a valid option.
Also you are incorrect in assuming social programs will be less invested in, COVID-19 is now exposing governments under funding of this sector and what the real cost is of it not working properly and that is an economic crisis.

In any case this is what happens when dollars matter more than lives. This is what you are advocating when you state those words;



Overwhelmed Hospitals Face a New Crisis: Staffing Firms Are Cutting Their Doctors’ Hours and Pay


The country’s top employers of emergency room doctors are cutting their hours — leaving clinicians with lower earnings and hospitals with less staff in the middle of a pandemic.

TeamHealth, a major medical staffing company owned by the private-equity giant Blackstone, is reducing hours for ER staff in some places and asking for voluntary furloughs from anesthesiologists, the company confirmed to ProPublica. Multiple ER providers working for a main competitor, KKR-owned Envision Healthcare, said their hours also are being cut.

Even as some hospitals risk running out of room to care for COVID-19 patients, demand for other kinds of health care is collapsing. This irony is straining the business models of hospitals and the companies that staff them with doctors and other medical professionals.


Article Link

Or did people believe that companies who made a business out of health were going to show decency during an epidemic? This is what you get if your healthcare system is unregulated and turned into the wild west. So even if you have insurance and you might end up paying a lot for your health if you get the virus you might have nobody to take care of you because private owned groups in control of ER staff are not willing to pay for more hours.

[Endus]

Agreed. The difference is responses is startling.

Most of the EU are paying workers wages, up to a point, this includes small business owners and people in the gig economy. They have free health care and most implemented social distancing and lock downs "relatively" quickly.

America has no safety net for people. Low vacation allowances and no sick pay / job security sorta encourage you to go to work when sick because you need to put food on the table. If you get sick then even with healthcare its costly. The country has been slow to implement social distancing, and its not enforced across the whole country. A good anecdote was the USA is like a swimming pool where you're allowed to piss in certain parts of it - it still gets around! The final straw is the central government response has been nothing short of criminal.

And let's be clear; this isn't a liberal/conservative thing. Doug Ford, Ontario's Premier, just had a press conference where he spoke about the efficacy of current lockdown measures (mostly stay-at-home suggestions, at this point), compared to if we'd done nothing, and then a suggestion that we could go further, and how that could further reduce infections/fatalities. Yes, that Doug Ford, brother to Rob Ford, Toronto's late "Crack Mayor".

As much as I loathe the guy, he's not fucking up the provincial response to the crisis.

[Magical Mudcrab]

You mean like the information I keep linking you, including theexact same tweet that PhaelixWW linked, which you have now accepted? It's hilarious you accuse me of shiposting, when you accepted something someone else posted, yet completely gloss over the fact that I linked it to you before that, and you ignored it. It shows you haven't been discussing in good faith.

It's not just PhaelixWW's message, people have PM'd me with additional articles.

That's fair, I think you did try to link to the tweet, but the link you gave me earlier was wrong. You had linked the same article twice, I had assumed that you had simply misquoted the article, assuming there was supposed to be an embedded tweet or a reference to his tweet that wasn't there. That's my bad.

[Trunksee]

"Yeah, people will die, but what about the economy?"

Misanthropic worship of the almighty dollar is the stupidest goddamn meme in modern society.

If the economy doesn't serve the people's welfare, it is itself a disease to be fought and destroyed. If you're raising a question of whether we have to pick between people's lives and the economy, the only ethical answer is to build an economy that does not necessitate human suffering, because the one you're backing explicitly does.

Your not wrong with the way the economy works but we need to work within the constraints we are given. Its not so much worrying about the almighty dollar its worrying about people the way they come out of this. Luckily my wife is working from home and I am on the essential list (for now). This is my biggest fear though that when we do finally come out of it what was the cost we paid? I don't think we will be able to go back to globalized trade if this last more than a few more months. People will be hesitant no matter what. Where do you all think the breaking point is where it becomes less advantageous to save mostly elderly people at the cost of the young. And yes I know young people get sick from this at the same clip but the chance of death is much much lower. There is a point we will reach and someone is going to have to make that decision and im glad its not me

[Magical Mudcrab]

Or did people believe that companies who made a business out of health were going to show decency during an epidemic? This is what you get if your healthcare system is unregulated and turned into the wild west. So even if you have insurance and you might end up paying a lot for your health if you get the virus you might have nobody to take care of you because private owned groups in control of ER staff are not willing to pay for more hours.

I don't think anyone should be surprised. We saw vaguely similar situations in Austalia a few weeks ago. It's very clear that the for-profit motives of private healthcare run counter to what's required during the pandemic.

A leading healthcare operator has warned dozens of private hospitals across the country will be forced to close over the next week, standing down thousands of health workers, unless governments help replace the revenue lost when elective surgery was banned.

- Source: The Guardian