Mega-Thread: Coronavirus Pandemic

[Forogil]

Not a vaccine but a treatment to Covid-19

In portuguese
https://24.sapo.pt/atualidade/artigo...tar-a-covid-19

Google translated

It may work - and it would be good if it did, but it is only phase I so even if it works it will take a bit of time.

However, Shionogi has a disappointing track-record against covid-19 so far (possibly over-hyping their pipe-line) - about a year ago they claimed to be ready to ramp up production of their vaccine (subunit) https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Pha...for-30m-people (and they have now quadrupled down on it) It is not yet in phase III trial as far as I can see, and I don't see that it will be tested and approved this year.

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They still don't get enough, every last person on this planet needs to be vaccinated at least once a year, for several years in a row, if we even want to hope to get this under control, but even then chances are, we are going to get a mutated strain capable of bypassing immunity.

And yearly vaccines in developing countries seems like a no-starter, as the mRNA seem to costly (the cold storage part seem more or less solved though) and the viral vector ones don't seem suitable for repeated vaccinations, and no other vaccines seem as efficient.

Yearly vaccinations may also be for the rulers, as they usually seem to have a high risk of serious covid-19 due to risk-factors.

As an example in the DRC parliament already in May 5% of the members (32 persons) had died to covid-19, https://www.msn.com/en-xl/africa/afr...ent/ar-AAKtMDj
The official total death count in DRC is 1,023.

I'd say humanity has already fucked up, covid is here to stay.

Yup.

[Tuor]

It may work - and it would be good if it did, but it is only phase I so even if it works it will take a bit of time.

However, Shionogi has a disappointing track-record against covid-19 so far (possibly over-hyping their pipe-line) - about a year ago they claimed to be ready to ramp up production of their vaccine (subunit) https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Pha...for-30m-people (and they have now quadrupled down on it) It is not yet in phase III trial as far as I can see, and I don't see that it will be tested and approved this year.

Read the article, other pharmaceuticals, and that includes Pfizer are on the track.

This med uses the principle used by some other antivirals. Controlling the way the virus reproduces and diminishing the viral charge means the virus will be under control. Acciclovir uses the same principle for Herpes and varicella. Acciclovir is not hable to kill the virus, but in the case of covid-19 the virus will disapear after a couple of weeks.

[Rasulis]

Doctors Worry That Memory Problems After COVID-19 May Set The Stage For Alzheimer's

What scientists have found so far is concerning.

For example, PET scans taken before and after a person develops COVID-19 suggest that the infection can cause changes that overlap those seen in Alzheimer's. And genetic studies are finding that some of the same genes that increase a person's risk for getting severe COVID-19 also increase the risk of developing Alzheimer's.

Alzheimer's diagnoses also appear to be more common in patients in their 60s and 70s who have had severe COVID-19, says Dr. Gabriel de Erausquin, a professor of neurology at UT Health San Antonio. "It's downright scary," he says.

And de Erausquin and his colleagues have noticed that mental problems seem to be more common in COVID-19 patients who lose their sense of smell, perhaps because the disease has affected a brain area called the olfactory bulb.

"Persistent lack of smell, it's associated with brain changes not just in the olfactory bulb but those places that are connected one way or another to the smell sense," he says.

Those places include areas involved in memory, thinking, planning and mood.

COVID-19's effects on the brain also seem to vary with age, de Erausquin says. People in their 30s seem more likely to develop anxiety and depression.

"In older people, people over 60, the foremost manifestation is forgetfulness," he says. "These folks tend to forget where they placed things, they tend to forget names, they tend to forget phone numbers. They also have trouble with language; they begin forgetting words."

The symptoms are similar to those of early Alzheimer's, and doctors sometimes describe these patients as having an Alzheimer's-like syndrome that can persist for many months.

Hopefully Covid virus does not behave like HPV virus, and 10 years from now we won't see a surge early onset of Alzheimer patients. Considering the number of people that had serious case of Covid infection, the number will be devastating.

[Granyala]

We've got people in hospital ICU's with the virus struggling to breathe still denying that it's a deadly virus and still angrily asserting that they'll never get vaxxed. We may have to live with this as a perpetually mutating virus in a permanent state of semi-lockdowns because people believe bullshit lies and can't think of anyone outside of themselves.

With the majority vaccinated, it'll end up being like the flu. It will kill a few thousand each year and in some countries it may bring healthcare to it's limits during the spikes but that's it.

I seriously doubt that the governments will lock down for this again unless it gets much worse. Economic costs are simply too high in the long run.

[Edge-]

With the majority vaccinated, it'll end up being like the flu.

The flu is not this deadly, nor does it have such long-lasting side effects.

It will kill a few thousand each year and in some countries it may bring healthcare to it's limits during the spikes but that's it.

I mean...what makes you believe this as we're seeing that we have pretty solid vaccination rates but still have clusters of low vaccinated groups packing hospitals? When they're still infecting vaccinated folks who, thankfully, are largely protected against symptoms and getting hospitalized, but can still get the virus and die from it in extremely rare cases.

I seriously doubt that the governments will lock down for this again unless it gets much worse. Economic costs are simply too high in the long run.

I mean, if this current trend keeps up and, heaven forbid, we find variants that vaccines don't effectively protect against from some reason (increasingly likely as all the unvaccinated continue getting the virus, spreading it, and creating more opportunities for mutation) and we're back to square one.

This continued attempt to normalize the virus is weird to me. It ain't fuckin normal.

[Tuor]

I mean, if this current trend keeps up and, heaven forbid, we find variants that vaccines don't effectively protect against from some reason (increasingly likely as all the unvaccinated continue getting the virus, spreading it, and creating more opportunities for mutation) and we're back to square one.

Letting the virus to mutate until it becomes harmless, like other coronavirus is perhaps the best strategy for the time being. No one is going to controll this virus.

This continued attempt to normalize the virus is weird to me. It ain't fuckin normal.

No one is trying to normalise a tragedy. We had our chance of erradicating this bastard and we lost it. Economy can't handle the restrictions, and we need supplies to keep going on.

[Forogil]

I mean, if this current trend keeps up and, heaven forbid, we find variants that vaccines don't effectively protect against from some reason (increasingly likely as all the unvaccinated continue getting the virus, spreading it, and creating more opportunities for mutation) and we're back to square one.

That will happen regardless.

World-wide 27% have begun their vaccination and 13% are fully vaccinated, but to a large extent with vaccines that aren't good enough to be approved in the US or EU. And vaccines have a lot more sliding scale than working/not working - so even if there's need for a booster dose that may only be needed for the ones most at risk.

This continued attempt to normalize the virus is weird to me. It ain't fuckin normal.

We are getting to the new normal.

[Zan15]

Good to see the VA step up and force the issue

Of course the MAGAloids are not happy and they are all saying people should sue. Funny, as expected they didn't bother to see that people already tried it and lost in the past all the way up to the SCOTUS





https://thehill.com/policy/healthcar...health-workers

The Department of Veterans Affairs will require its front-line health care workers to be vaccinated against COVID-19, a move that comes as vaccine mandates from employers are on the rise.

“I am doing this because it’s the best way to keep our veterans safe, full stop,” Denis McDonough, the secretary of Veterans Affairs, told The New York Times in an interview.

The move will apply to 115,000 employees who have the most "patient-facing" jobs, the Times reported, and they will have eight weeks to get the shots if they have not already.

[PhaelixWW]

Letting the virus to mutate until it becomes harmless, like other coronavirus

Uh... that's not really what happened. The other coronaviruses didn't simply mutate to become harmless. They've just been around for so long that everyone gets sick from them as a child with a stronger immune system and then get reinfected periodically as we age, so that we always have the ability to produce antibodies.

SARS-CoV-2 is so dangerous, at least in part, because it's novel, meaning that it's affecting older and more immuno-compromized people who don't have the benefit of having been exposed to it at a safer age.

No one is trying to normalise a tragedy. We had our chance of erradicating this bastard and we lost it. Economy can't handle the restrictions, and we need supplies to keep going on.

The economy can't handle protracted full lockdowns, but it sure as hell can handle some basic preventative precautions. I think we have ample proof of that by now.

It's like those numskull posters here who were warning about every country becoming a "nation of paupers", while unironically trying to pretend that everyone else was the one living in fear.

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This continued attempt to normalize the virus is weird to me. It ain't fuckin normal.

I mean, it's inevitable. That doesn't, however, mean we can't or shouldn't continue efforts to mitigate the damage, especially considering that this normalization is realistically years or even a decade or more out.

[Tuor]

The economy can't handle protracted full lockdowns, but it sure as hell can handle some basic preventative precautions. I think we have ample proof of that by now.

One moron that doesn't accomplish the recomendation is enought so that the virus keeps spreading, and sadly we not talking of a single moron. We need to learn how to deal with the virus. I've always defended restrictions, but those require us to keep acting has a group, sadly that isn't happening, most people can't handle the fact that their lives are restricted for too long, even supporters like me.

We need to handle it, we need to learn how to live with the virus.

[PhaelixWW]

One moron that doesn't accomplish the recomendation is enought so that the virus keeps spreading

That's not really how sustained transmission works, either.

I've always defended restrictions, but those require us to keep acting has a group, sadly that isn't happening

Even without 100% compliance, it can still be worthwhile. It's not an all-or-nothing proposition.

And at least here in the US, giving up and giving in to the stupid people around us would mean things like another Trump presidency as just the tip of the iceberg.

So no thanks.

We need to handle it, we need to learn how to live with the virus.

"Handling it" means abiding by sensible precautions while the virus is still novel. That will not last forever, but we're not past it yet.

[Fuiking]

The flu is not this deadly, nor does it have such long-lasting side effects.



I mean...what makes you believe this as we're seeing that we have pretty solid vaccination rates but still have clusters of low vaccinated groups packing hospitals? When they're still infecting vaccinated folks who, thankfully, are largely protected against symptoms and getting hospitalized, but can still get the virus and die from it in extremely rare cases.



I mean, if this current trend keeps up and, heaven forbid, we find variants that vaccines don't effectively protect against from some reason (increasingly likely as all the unvaccinated continue getting the virus, spreading it, and creating more opportunities for mutation) and we're back to square one.

This continued attempt to normalize the virus is weird to me. It ain't fuckin normal.

Dutch hospitals had to stop/stagger (still do) regular healthcare. Normal waiting time for a MDL doctors is about 6-8 weeks.. now its 12+ weeks. Not to forget: They actually had to lower the amount of people with cardiovascular issues. (operations etc) You could make a case that the last 20 years of healthcare budget cuts nad privatisation of hospitals did a thing. But still.

[Rasulis]

No worse the flu?

FL Hospital Moves to 'Red Zone' Due to Delta Variant, 90 Percent of Patients Unvaccinated

On Monday, AdventHealth announced its ICU was moving to red status, just four days after it elevated its status to "yellow."

According to the latest update, 862 COVID-19 patients are hospitalized across the Central Florida division, which indicates that inpatient totals are nearing January's record of 900 patients.

Under red status, hospitals will begin rescheduling non-urgent elective outpatient surgeries in order to increase capacity on Tuesday. AdventHealth's ICU is currently full.

On Monday, Orange County Mayor Jerry Demings said the county is seeing roughly 1,000 new daily cases. The 14-day rolling positivity rate is now more than three times what it was a month ago and this weekend alone, increased from 14 percent on Friday to 20 percent on Sunday.

"We are now in crisis mode," Demings said. "The time really is now, like no other time in our community, for you to step up to the plate and get vaccinated. We have loved ones who depend on us."

Herrera added, "If somebody gets a COVID-19 vaccine, based on what we've seen their chances of get being hospitalized, are very low, or probably way less than 1 percent."

Herrera said the latest coronavirus surge has also led to an increase in hospitalizations of pregnant woman with the virus—a demographic he didn't see intubated in previous waves.

"This is a reminder to our community, and pregnant women to consider the COVID-19 vaccine, and to have that conversation with their doctors. We want to encourage pregnant women to think about vaccination," he said. "Again, we don't know yet if this is related to the Delta variant, but clearly, there is a higher number of pregnant women very sick with COVID-19 right now compared to before."

[Granyala]

I mean...what makes you believe this as we're seeing that we have pretty solid vaccination rates

Honestly, the only country I would attribute a "solid vaccination rate" to right now would be Israel.
The US? Not so much. Germany? Also: not yet. Barely 50%.

We both know that 50% aren't enough.

Yeah, it sucks for the US that you apparently have such a large number of nutcases (though I'd reckon a lot of it has to do with making a political mess out of this pandemic) but that necessarily ain't the case for the rest of the world. Please consider that I am not a US citizen, so I usually do NOT talk from an US centric perspective.

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The flu is not this deadly, nor does it have such long-lasting side effects.

I should have been more precise in my wording: It will end up being treated like the flu was / is treated for the last decades.

Also, stop with the mutation boogeyman. 80% of the worlds population will never be inoculated sufficiently. It does not matter what we do or don't do on the mutation front, SARS-CoV-2 will never run out of hosts to mutate in.

[PhaelixWW]

CNN: Staff at a Florida hospital say they are hearing panic, fear and regret from unvaccinated Covid-19 patients

Health care workers at Jacksonville's Baptist Medical Center in Florida are hearing panic, fear and regret from many of their patients as an increasing number are admitted for Covid-19 complications -- and as many need to be put on ventilators.

"We're getting ready to intubate the patient, which means putting them on a ventilator, and they said, 'If I get the vaccine now, could I not go on the ventilator?' So, they're begging for it," Chief Nursing Officer Tammy Daniel told CNN. "They're desperate because they are gasping for air, they can't breathe, they are scared, they feel like they're going to pass away. "

But by then, they are too late for a vaccine to stop their infection.

Baptist Medical Center has seen its Covid-19 patient numbers multiplying every day, Daniel said. "We can't open up beds fast enough to meet the demand," she said.

Florida is one of the 32 states to see an average number of new cases over the last seven days increase by more than 50% from the week before, according to data from Johns Hopkins University. But it is one of only two states in which every county in the state is listed as having high Covid-19 transmission.

The surge is overwhelming Baptist Medical Center, where 389 patients are being treated for Covid-19 -- an increase of about 50% from a week ago. Of the new patients, 83 are on ventilators, fighting to survive.

More than 99% of those patients aren't vaccinated and the average age is around 50 years old, said CEO of Baptist Health Michael Mayo.

Dr. Michelle Aquino said many of the patients getting very sick are young.

Last week, she admitted a 19-year-old and a 25-year-old for Covid-19, both perfectly healthy before their infections, she said.

"So, you're seeing these healthy people walking around saying I don't need a vaccine, I'm fine if I get Covid I'll be fine and that's not true. With the Delta variant we have really seeing that is not true," Aquino said.

Some patients said they were more concerned about the vaccines than the disease. Now they say they regret not getting the vaccine sooner.

That fear of vaccines is especially frustrating, Aquino said, because there is still no significant, surefire treatment for Covid-19.

"When patients come in, we're very honest with them. We say a lot of it is, we think it'll help, we're not sure it will help, it might help, we hope it helps, but we're not sure and you take it day by day," Aquino said.

Everyone at Baptist Medical Center has lost patients to the virus in the last few weeks, Aquino said, which has been emotionally taxing on the staff who knows most of these deaths could have been avoided.

[Forogil]

I dunno if there were community cases in those countries it wouldnt take long before they run rampant,

Yes, exactly as happened in Russia and many other countries.

India did not score 100% lmao.

They objectively scored 100%.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/c...ountry=IND~SGP

Right from the get go there were concerns that people in poorer areas were too densely packed to adequately prevent the spread, hence it only slowing down.

Right, and therefore lockdown couldn't stop covid in a country with more than a billion people, and the development of a new more contagious variant there.

Note that it might have been possible to stop it spreading to the rest of the country - similarly as how Singapore handled their densely packed migrant workers; https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-55314862 - although some complain that it is imprisoning them.

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Honestly, the only country I would attribute a "solid vaccination rate" to right now would be Israel.
The US? Not so much. Germany? Also: not yet. Barely 50%.

Israel got complacent, and in terms of vaccinated as percentage of total population Israel isn't even in the top-4.

For partly vaccinated the list is: Malta, Iceland, UAE, Chile, Canada, Denmark, uk, Israel (and I'm likely to have missed some).
(It's just that Chile used less good vaccines which didn't stop the spread as much.)

https://ourworldindata.org/explorers...European+Union

Germany is now passing the US - even in terms of fully vaccinated, and more partly vaccinated.

Also, stop with the mutation boogeyman. 80% of the worlds population will never be inoculated sufficiently. It does not matter what we do or don't do on the mutation front, SARS-CoV-2 will never run out of hosts to mutate in.

Agreed.

[Forogil]

Yes I'm obviously not saying it cant happen, but it hasnt happened in every country that eliminated the virus. But you cant tell me countries that have gone months without cases just arent aware of their community spread, that would be ridiculous.

The ones that have managed are largely isolated and/or with effective authoritarian government. They also largely rely a lot more on testing than on lockdowns - and in some cases use much more targeted approaches as in Japan.

People from the outset shared concerns for india and how their population density would impact a lockdown and as we saw, they couldn't stop it by just issuing stay at home orders etc. They couldn't properly lockdown because people are living in each others pockets. They required aid, but countries like America were too busy spreading the virus amongst themselves as well as the rest of the world and had a leader who wasnt particularly concerned with others in the international community.

India has a pretty bad leader - prioritizing selling vaccines internationally at first as well as PPE instead of using it internally - and more focused on winning a national election by adding large gatherings to stoke the nationalist feeling than avoiding the problems, especially after he himself got vaccinated.

However, as noted Singapore's migrant worker population seems as hard to handle as the Indian slum population, but they managed to stop the spread to the rest of the society so far.

Even now we could be doing better, but we are enforcing patents on a life saving vaccine which is cool.

The discussion about patents on vaccines is a distraction.
Look at how much problem AstraZeneca had with building factories in Mexico and in EU. What makes you think that it would be better if AstraZeneca didn't try to help, since they didn't have the patent?
BioNTech has partnered with Fosum in China to make their vaccine; it was started long ago but it's still not authorized as far as I know - and that's the same vaccine that is sold as Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine in the rest of the world. Thinking that it would have worked faster if BioNTech didn't try to help is plain ridiculous.

[Forogil]

Aside from countries like vietnam who eliminated the virus up until recently.

An authoritarian government that basically closed their borders in March 2020 (well, most of the tourists would be Chinese so it was sort of stopped from both sides). It's a one-party state.

Not going to dismiss how good an effective contact tracing system is, but it only works up to a point.

Vietnam allegedly had a good test and trace system - and they didn't claim to have no community transmissions the entire time, but they managed to get the 2nd wave under control. However, the Delta-variant is creating a 3rd wave that it seems they are unable to stop - and it seems that Australia is also likely to suffer that fate.

I mean I guess its authoritarian but it's a bit of a buzz word when you're talking about quarantines.

Wrong, as authoritarian in practice means that governments can and do things that other governments don't normally do - up to welding the doors shut to enforce quarantine.

But you cant really tell me a country that spends billions of dollars on border defense cant prevent the spread of a virus within its borders.

Does those billion of dollars stop the smuggling of people and drugs? If not, why would it stop the virus?
However, discussing if the border is 100% proof is mostly a distraction as no border is 100% proof; that's why it needs to be combined with other measures including test-and-trace.

Yeah, india has a shitty leader, it doesnt help, many countries had shitty leaders who were quote happy to let the disease spread so long as money kept flowing and opinion polls didnt dip too much.

Many also used lockdowns as a way to be seen as strong, and create nationalism (claiming that the problem are foreigners and in China even against people from Wuhan).

It's not a distraction? Numerous countries have stated they have the facilities to produce the vaccine.

By "state" you mean that they falsely claim that - and when you look you often find production facilities that are simply not adequate; or simply bottling plants without any real production facility.

That's not strange as many vaccine production facilities are by necessity custom-designed for the specific vaccine - and that known-how isn't spread. Note that even if they did make the vaccine it would not automatically be approved as many countries require approval of both the vaccine and the production facility; that's why the EU and India are discussing the status of fully vaccinated Indians.

I think it's entirely on Astra Zeneca and their leadership if profit is the only reason they are helping curb the pandemic.

They are not making any profit on the vaccines during the pandemic, as they sell the vaccines at cost. Seriously this disinformation needs to stop.

The patent issue is mainly just a populist distraction to fool the gullible.

[Forogil]

Yes more authoritarian governments can do things like that while more liberal ones can just claim that authoritarian countries do these things.

What is your point?

Those billions of dollars stops a lot of it, and at the start of the pandemic the risk wasnt from their southern border it was entirely domestic.

You must be one of those that think only the southern border of the US is porous.

If theyd managed to eliminate the virus and then it got in from the southern border then you might have a point.

No, my point is that no border is 100% proof - so you need to combine border checks (at all borders) with test-and-trace. Test-and-trace require that the population comply.

Some of them might be lying, we certainly arent.

Who is we and what is the proof that you actually had vaccine production facilities?

Oh, and note that mRNA vaccine production has faced supply issues - so more production facilities wouldn't have solved that.

Not making profit on the vaccines no. You can sell the vaccine at cost, and still find plenty of ways to make money. Kinda odd that they're projecting record profits if there isnt any money to be made...

AstraZeneca make profit from other drugs (e.g. Tagrisso against lung cancer), and only a few of those drugs have had problems due to covid-19.

They don't include their covid-vaccine in revenue, but as a highlight in "ESG - Environmental, social and (corporate) governance (topics)".

Its genuinely not a populist distraction? For one what's it distracting from? A lack of vaccines due to bottle necks in production?

Bottle necks in supplies for production, and in getting production facilities ready will not be helped by it.

It's a a distraction from other bad actions - e.g., India selling their vaccines and then opening up with extra mass gatherings find it easier to blame vaccine patents. Governments hoarding vaccines trying to steer the discussion towards vaccine patents that they are foreign-owned (while keeping other relevant patents - and know-how).

You have yet to present a single fact.

[Forogil]

Even still having more production facilities means that it is being more widely distributed instead of countries like America hoarding it and having millions of surplus doses.

I haven't seen you providing any evidence indicating those facilities actually exist.

Pfizer is straight up profiting from their vaccine,

And you bring up this regarding patent waiver because of ignorance or?
Note that Pfizer has no major patent on the vaccine, and might actually benefit from a patent waiver.
(Actual facts: https://legal-patent.com/healthcare-...orona-vaccine/ )

That's how completely out of touch with reality you are.

The indian government selling its vaccines doesnt change the fact that the people of india still needs them.

You are falling for the patent-waiver distraction; that India uses to hide their own failing.

I've presented plenty of facts,

Alternative facts that you present aren't facts.