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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    Except for the fact that:

    - she believes in opposite religion
    - she reminds them of Arthas
    - she works for Alliance
    - she isn't really undead, remember that they don't trust living.
    - Don't think religion matters. They are both based on the light. Forsaken one is a re-interpretation. There are holy and discipline Forsaken. This is not novel.
    - She reminds them of their previous kings too? That is a silly argument. It's not like their non Menethil monarch turned out any better.
    - I don't think she does. She works for the Forsaken now. This is the case of what i was saying. Only a player says things like this. Too ingrained on Alliance and Horde being enemies and everyone has to conform to it. Like, what's up with Khadgar right? He is alliance yet helps both sides. Apparently, not permitted for Calia.
    - She is definitely Undead. She was killed and risen.

  2. #62
    bolvar is still a living being, he's not undead.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    You miss my point.

    How can he be nerfed when we had no idea what he was capable? Hell he still rules over the Undead as far as we can tell, at least in a similar capacity to how he was. The Death Knights will no doubt still be serving him.
    So what does the helm do if it isn't necessary to control the scourge? I thought that was the reason why Bolvar took it upon himself to wear it in the first place.
    Mother pus bucket!

  4. #64
    No, but I'd take him over Calia any day. Then again you could look through Forsaken NPCs on wowhead and pick one at random and you'd still be guaranteed to find a more fitting leader of the race than Calia.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2020-01-21 at 09:25 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  5. #65
    Judging by PTR lore, Calia or Voss will lead, probably Calia unless the backlash is just too much.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Sylvannas would leave Nathanos in charge if she goes MIA. The val'kyr already listen to him and they're kind of necessary to make 'traditional' Forsaken. Bolvar probably powerless without helm or sword. Lilian will probably fill the role of champion Nathanos used to play. Bolvar will probably still rep Death Knights. Calia will probably lead some variant of Lightforged.
    Nathanos will probably share the fate of Sylvanas, or be sacrificed on the way. He can't return to the Horde, because he's at best a war criminal and a traitor. Unless killed on sight, a trial by both the horde and alliance would either have him executed or imprisoned for all time.
    Mother pus bucket!

  7. #67
    Obviously not. Bolvar is aligned with the KotEB not the forsaken. As far as ex scourge members go both of them have no relationship.
    /tar Tinker-zealot /point /lol
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  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Sylvannas would leave Nathanos in charge if she goes MIA.
    That's questionable. Before the events of BfA, I'd say this would work. But now?

    Everyone, horde and alliance, known that Nathanos only does what Sylvanas tells him to do. I doubt the current Horde would accept Nathanos as leader of the Forsaken without some kind of plot-armor twist.

  9. #69
    Anyone with any form of leadership skill and respect, as long as it's not Calia.
    Last edited by Jshadowhunter; 2020-01-21 at 11:31 AM.

  10. #70
    My my... a lich king as ruler of the forsaken.
    Damn that's pretty dumb.

    An idea as dumb as that would be Archimonde as ruler of the draeney.

  11. #71
    Warchief Cidzor's Avatar
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    The Forsaken are responsible for Bolvar's current state. I can't imagine why he'd want anything to do with them, unless it gives him a chance to destroy them.

    edit: although now that I think about it, I wonder what would've happened to Bolvar at the Wrathgate if not for the plague bomb. I feel like Arthas would've just done the same thing to Bolvar that he did to Saurfang Jr, then we would've had a Deathlord Bolvar boss in ICC.
    Last edited by Cidzor; 2020-01-21 at 06:19 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    never dick crazy.
    unless they have tentacles and more then 2 eyes.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Zandalari, Kul Tiran, Dark Iron Dwarves, and Mechnagnomes all have capital cities.
    You can add Nightborne too. Hightmoutain is arguable.

    So, even giving you the benefit of doubt, 5 of the 10 allied races had capital cities. Argubly six.

    Void Elves, Lightforged Draenei, Mag'har Orcs and Vulpera all don't have a capital city.
    "Even giving me the benefit of the doubt" please... your entire post is predicated on bending the benefit of the doubt to suit your own argument.

    You're splitting hairs between "capital" from a lore perspective & "capital" from a gameplay perspective in order to hurt my point, but I think we all know there's a difference between a "capital" city in WoW terms and just a regular city/town, and I think it's pretty clear what I was getting at.

    Banks. Auction Houses. Trade Chat. Those seasonal NPCs that appear to tell you when a holiday starts. Tradeskill Vendors. Often A Pet Store. Often several portals that send you to OTHER capitals and points of major interest. Profession Trainers for EVERY profession (not just an intermittent few). Guild NPCs. A pvp hub of some sort. Summing up - A large city with a large collection of convenient features which aren't often all to be together outside of large cities. Often that serves as a staging ground for several years of a major expansion. Not to mention they're all clearly marked with one of those little capital towers on the world map.

    Ya'know, the first 12 (13 if you count Dalaran twice) cities in this article that says "Game Capitals" - Not the 50 other cities thereafter listed in "Lore Capitals" - https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Capital

    I acknowledge not every capital has every feature, and I acknowledge most features can be found at least one place outside a capital - So there's not a hard and fast list of rules as to what "makes" one, necessarily. Blizzard has certainly added some flexibility to the formula here and there over the years - But at the end of the day I think we all still know the difference between a capital city and a regular city in WoW terms. You're just busting my stones for the sake of busting my stones here.

    Because the point this post was predicated on was turning Icecrown into the forsaken's GAME capital, and that's the idea I was refuting. The guy's argument was that it made more sense to turn a raid instance into their capital than "build a new one" (as if they need a new one to be built - Because to my entire point, most races don't have or need their own in-game capitals anymore, because as Vanilla & BC taught us early, they mostly go ignored)

    All that said - I'm (obviously) calling some major BS on your counterpoint. I acknowledged Kul'tiran & Zandalari having capitals in my post, but again, their capitals serve more as faction capitals for this expansion that just happen to also be racial capitals due to the story being told in BFA. They didn't put them in as a spearhead to relaunch capital cities for every race. But regardless of further nitpicking, I already conceded them.

    Dark Iron Dwarves & Mechangones absolutely DO NOT have racial capitals as we know them to exist in WoW, or as it pertains to this argument. Dark Iron Dwarves have Blackrock Depths, sure, from a lore perspective, but it's not as if it functions as an actual all-purpose gameplay hub in WoW. It doesn't even exist in the overworld, it's a dungeon! Or if we're going with the "they share Ironforge" argument - I'm still not buying it, because it's well established Ironforge is the home of the bronzebeards, they're just sharing space with their cousins in an effort to play nice.

    Mechagnomes barely have an outpost in the dirt gameplay wise, but I guess you could argue Mechagon lore wise, sure. Nightborne & Highmountain are actually closer than either Dark Irons or Mechagnomes to having an in-game capital - at least theirs aren't instanced - But again, both Suramar & Highmountain don't serve as capital cities per the context of the original discussion I think we both know you're conveniently ignoring. :P
    Last edited by TragedyAnn; 2020-01-21 at 03:17 PM.

  13. #73
    Stood in the Fire Garretdejiko's Avatar
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    He probably despises the Forsaken. Although, after all this time, he's at best Faction neutral since his Champions are either Alliance or Horde.

    Lilian Voss should be their leader. She's been around since Cata, knows the importance of free will, She genuenlly cares about the Forsaken Undead.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    That's questionable. Before the events of BfA, I'd say this would work. But now?

    Everyone, horde and alliance, known that Nathanos only does what Sylvanas tells him to do. I doubt the current Horde would accept Nathanos as leader of the Forsaken without some kind of plot-armor twist.
    So Rokhan, Thalyssra, Talanji, Gallywix, Lilian, Amalia Stone, Tattersail, Thomas Zelling, Eitrigg, Rexxar, and everyone else Nathanos befriended and helped are just supposed to sit back and watch that happen? Because he fell in love, may have been manipulated himself, or even just arbitrarily was following the wrong leader the rest of the world decided wasn't the right one at the current moment? That's okay, but keep in mind Saurfang got justice among the Horde with less Horde sympathy. Nathanos has more friends, more allies, that he has meaningfully helped in real situations. Saurfang got more honor as an old veteran, while Nathanos' friends - none of them are going to trust him at all? That's cruel.

  15. #75
    The Insane General Zanjin's Avatar
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    A forsaken must lead the forsaken.

    Voss, calia, and bolvar are not forsaken
    #tracerisawesomelycute
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  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathreim View Post
    No one outside of the Forsaken should be the new leader. It should be someone who has been around since the start like Hercular or Belmont.
    We kinda already see where the story is leading, it's going to be Calia and Derek.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

    Zyky is better than you.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    And this makes no sense.

    Bolvar is NOT living normal human, I think you are viewing him as an alliance human, use the information about him, he is the Lord of the undead, you don't get more qualified to lead the undead faction. ..
    Bolvar is not the leader of the "undead". He's the leader of the Scourge, not the Forsaken. Bolvar is not Forsaken, and has no relationship to them and their plight. You're not acknowledging the fact that there's a HUGE difference between the two. So what you're saying makes zero sense.

    Yeah, totally, a former Alliance militant who took over the Lich King's duties totally makes sense to command a Horde faction that he's never supported, sympathized with, or shown allegiance to. Did you forget how Bolvar died in the first place? Lol.

    Pretty much end of story.
    Last edited by Black Goat; 2020-01-21 at 05:58 PM.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathreim View Post
    No one outside of the Forsaken should be the new leader. It should be someone who has been around since the start like Hercular or Belmont.
    I am still surprised the Desolate Council hasn't been reborn with Voss, Belmont and Hercular among a few others. It'd be a neat vibe for them being truly forsaken twice and embody everything they are.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    So Rokhan, Thalyssra, Talanji, Gallywix, Lilian, Amalia Stone, Tattersail, Thomas Zelling, Eitrigg, Rexxar, and everyone else Nathanos befriended and helped are just supposed to sit back and watch that happen? Because he fell in love, may have been manipulated himself, or even just arbitrarily was following the wrong leader the rest of the world decided wasn't the right one at the current moment? That's okay, but keep in mind Saurfang got justice among the Horde with less Horde sympathy. Nathanos has more friends, more allies, that he has meaningfully helped in real situations. Saurfang got more honor as an old veteran, while Nathanos' friends - none of them are going to trust him at all? That's cruel.
    I didn't say they wouldn't have feelings about him as an individual. I said they wouldn't accept him as leader of the Forsaken.

    He's too compromised. Too much of a conflict of interests for him to hold a position of power. And I did allow for a plot twist(although I think that would require breaking his character).

  20. #80
    I am Murloc! Dellis0991's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    Calia for leader!

    I mean, the Forsaken always claimed they were the rightful citizens of Lordaeron, time to embrace the ascension of their rightful ruler, the last scion of House Menethil, which has ruled Lordaeron for some 3.000 years.
    I rather it be Belmont.

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