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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Why in the world would he want to lead the people that lead him to being a charred and stuck between life/dead?
    Because apparently all you need to be to rule forsaken is just be an undead. No other circumstances or context matters....

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I didn't say they wouldn't have feelings about him as an individual. I said they wouldn't accept him as leader of the Forsaken.

    He's too compromised. Too much of a conflict of interests for him to hold a position of power. And I did allow for a plot twist(although I think that would require breaking his character).
    I think there are more loyalists and sympathizers to Sylvannas, who still trust her, even in secret, who would accept him as leader of the Forsaken still. Up until the events at the gate of Orgrimmar, the Forsaken were *still* following Sylvannas and Nathanos to hell and back on little else than faith in their direction and leadership. Him being too compromised is something Thrall can determine. Thrall may not be the best judge of character, but with the testimony of all the people Nathanos has befriended, I think he would be willing to give him a chance under a more watchful eye than he gave Garrosh before.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Goat View Post
    Bolvar is not the leader of the "undead". He's the leader of the Scourge, not the Forsaken. Bolvar is not Forsaken, and has no relationship to them and their plight. You're not acknowledging the fact that there's a HUGE difference between the two. So what you're saying makes zero sense.

    Yeah, totally, a former Alliance militant who took over the Lich King's duties totally makes sense to command a Horde faction that he's never supported, sympathized with, or shown allegiance to. Did you forget how Bolvar died in the first place? Lol.

    Pretty much end of story.
    Pretty sure the scourge are undead, as are the ebon blade and Bolvar rules over both. He may not control the forsaken faction of undead, but he is certainly fit enough to do so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    I think there are more loyalists and sympathizers to Sylvannas, who still trust her, even in secret, who would accept him as leader of the Forsaken still. Up until the events at the gate of Orgrimmar, the Forsaken were *still* following Sylvannas and Nathanos to hell and back on little else than faith in their direction and leadership. Him being too compromised is something Thrall can determine. Thrall may not be the best judge of character, but with the testimony of all the people Nathanos has befriended, I think he would be willing to give him a chance under a more watchful eye than he gave Garrosh before.
    SEeing as we know what Sylvans is involved with in Shadowlands, andthe chance that she had a reason that was in the interestest of her people.. i can also see Sylvanas returning as Forsaken leader
    .


    Also there is the possiblity taht she and Bolvar might be swapped


    i.e. she becomes teh Lich Queen as punishmetn of sorts and Bolvar becomes Forsaken leader.

  4. #84
    It will either be Lilian or Calia. Hoping for anyone else is setting yourself up for disappointment. There is a 100% chance it won't be Bolvar, who is just about as neutral as neutral can get at this point.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    I think there are more loyalists and sympathizers to Sylvannas, who still trust her, even in secret, who would accept him as leader of the Forsaken still. Up until the events at the gate of Orgrimmar, the Forsaken were *still* following Sylvannas and Nathanos to hell and back on little else than faith in their direction and leadership. Him being too compromised is something Thrall can determine. Thrall may not be the best judge of character, but with the testimony of all the people Nathanos has befriended, I think he would be willing to give him a chance under a more watchful eye than he gave Garrosh before.
    You really think that Baine is going to vote yes? Thrall? Lor'Themar? After EVERYTHING that's gone down?

    Sorry, but no. That's why I said it would require super plot-armor, character breaking story changes. But then again, this is WoW. Not like the bar is set very high to begin with.

  6. #86
    Bolvar, if anything, will likely end up the de facto leader the Ebon Blade much in the same way Khadgar is to the Kirin Tor. Though he and the Ebon Blade may share a bond of circumstance with them, I just can't envision Bolvar leading the Forsaken.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulqiorra View Post
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  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    He's now being nerfed in shadowlands, I'd say he is more on par with other leaders like Malf/Tyrande, Alleria etc, and with Sylvanas now at god like levesl of power and clearly having a different fate, the most awesome move for the forsaken would be leaders of the Undead scourge with a capital in Icecrown Citadel. Bolvar the Lich King their leader, and Calia Menethil, the sub-race leader for a lightforged undead allied race.

    I would actually really like that. I thought Ice crown CItadel was an incredible city, and is perfect for tthe Forskaen to return to a faction level race. Why create or build a new city when Icecrown Citadel fits the bill perfectly? I would prefer it over using the Ruins of THeramore.

    New Capital: Icecrown Citadel
    Second base: Theramore ruins

    SO I would make Theramore ruins the "Echo Isles" of the forsaken. Just like the Dark spears would likely be based in Zuldazar now, I think this is an exciting move for the forsaken, if they do it.
    Presumably, Bolver takes the mantle of "Jailer of the Damned" again to keep the scourge at bay as there must always be a Lich King. Im not sure that he can keep the scourge at bay and be an effective leader of the Forsaken.

    If that mantle is given to someone else, then sure, you could have Bolvar be the leader because of his experience with the scourge, but that isn't something Bolvar would likely want to do. He didn't lose his human memories when he was afflicted with the Life-Giver's Flame... so he'd likely remember that the Forsaken are bad.


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  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Maybe this was already answered, but....

    Did Bolvar ever actually die? Is he even technically "undead"? I know the red dragon flame did a number on him, and then Arthas tortured him as well, but did we ever get actually confirmation of how that exactly went down, like in a novel or something?

    Anyway, I imagine between Bolvar and Calia, the forsaken are pretty well covered for leaders. Actually....Now that I think about it....



    Mods gimme a pass this time for gifs plz? ;D
    Arthas wasn't dead when he put the crown on, but he's always been categorized as Undead.

    No seriously, there is no point in Warcraft III in that he died, or atleast was said upfront to have died. His soul was claimed by Frostmourne, sure, but he was living and kicking through the rest of the Human campaign, and then the Scourge Campaign.

    This is nothing canon or anything, I won't say that this is what it is, but what a possible reason for the change in that, is that the Helm of Domination is what 'kills' you and makes you Undead

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  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Frinata View Post
    Arthas wasn't dead when he put the crown on, but he's always been categorized as Undead.

    No seriously, there is no point in Warcraft III in that he died, or atleast was said upfront to have died. His soul was claimed by Frostmourne, sure, but he was living and kicking through the rest of the Human campaign, and then the Scourge Campaign.

    This is nothing canon or anything, I won't say that this is what it is, but what a possible reason for the change in that, is that the Helm of Domination is what 'kills' you and makes you Undead
    I made another topic in the lore forum asking the question if one needed to be undead to be a death knight... it seemed a silly question, but I never recall Arthas dying, and I see o reason why a living person can't channel death powers .. the necromancers do it, they become raised as liches when they die, they just gain more power through ritual, they don't now start channeling death magic only in undeath.

    There isn't anything in lore that states the death knight has to be undead...just that most have been because in the story Arthas rasies former champions back to life to serve him. This makes sense not as a requirement for being a death knight, but as a requiremnt for him to control them absoutely. He has poer over the undead, not the living, he could train a living personin the magic, but he wouldn't ahve absolute control over them, and since he doesn't care about them living, undeath is naturally better for him because he can completely control them.

    I questioned if the new allied race death knights were alive or undead, because i haven't tried out their starting area yet, and noticed they ddin't have undead skins.. and thought ah well, it's not neccessary for them to be undead, and Bolvar doesn't need to completely control them, that's not his style. He wasn't looking for world conquest like Arthas.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    You really think that Baine is going to vote yes? Thrall? Lor'Themar? After EVERYTHING that's gone down?

    Sorry, but no. That's why I said it would require super plot-armor, character breaking story changes. But then again, this is WoW. Not like the bar is set very high to begin with.
    Baine is probably the only one I would expect to say no. Thrall I think would come around with testimony from all of Nathanos' allies. Lor'themar, as well, lots of history with the undead who helped the Blood Elves when they were in dire need and no one else was there for them. Under Thrall's ideals, Nathanos' willingness to do what is told of him for the greater good is a trait he'll need if he ever wants the rest of the world to turn over to his level of thinking. But if Thrall sentences people like Nathanos who were either being manipulated or just following orders, then he's turning away from the very ideals he preaches. Nathanos is in a position to give Thrall a chance to correct the kind of mistake he made with Garrosh before and actually be a collective leader where it is necessary. Thrall can make these kinds of tiny improvements to make Azeroth better for everyone. The mindset of kill everyone who opposes the mentality or convert everyone isn't, hasn't, and won't work across the board. People like Nathanos represent the skepticism and cynicism of undeath, where hope is devoid and gone and they're forsaken and seen as monsters. Even in this quite literal example, people would burn Nathanos at the stake as a criminal when other characters like Varok walked tall and proud doing a lot of the same horrors to different people under different banners simply because of what species he is. Nathanos doesn't get a break because he's Forsaken? He is, then, truly Forsaken. If Thrall most of all can't see that part of the picture, then he's blind.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Pretty sure the scourge are undead, as are the ebon blade and Bolvar rules over both. He may not control the forsaken faction of undead, but he is certainly fit enough to do so.
    He is not the controller of ALL the Undead, like you originally stated. He controls the Scourge. I never said the Scourge weren't undead.

    He is not fit to control the Forsaken. He is not Forsaken. And it makes absolutely no sense that a former Alliance militant, that was killed by the Forsaken, would suddenly offer to become their leader, a Horde race.

    Bolvar is literally the worst possible candidate.

  12. #92
    Bolvar is not a forsaken nor undead.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    i.e. she becomes teh Lich Queen as punishmetn of sorts and Bolvar becomes Forsaken leader.
    What, EXACTLY, would be his motivation to WANT to lead the very people who's betrayal led to his disfigurement, and his capture and torture at the hands of the Lich King?

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  14. #94
    NO. This is like the stupidest idea ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Imo? Bolvar would be a powerful leader, atm, the alliance has loads of thsoe, while the horde not really as most of the WC3 hero characters were put into the alliance, then blizzard realised how stupid that was when no one played the horde.

    Since then they've just trashed perfectly good races to boost the horde up rather than do a sensible move like just get the night elves, leave a group of young night elves in it and develop up them separately.

    It's like the Nightborne, Elisande would have made a far more powerful leader than Thalyssra who face it feels a lot more like an alliance night elf character than she does a horde leader, ELisande on the other hand, is very powerful, and the echoes give us a way to recover and make a powerful horde leader. Can you imagine if it was Elisande rescuing Princess Talanji from Stormwind, the confrontation with Jaina would have been different, or they'd have had to use Valtrois instead.

    likewise, t he Lich king is the ruler of the undead, he is powerful figure even after being nerfed by Sylvanas, and we know Sylvanas' new power is not really her own anyway, and I'm sorry, she is an undead elf, doesn't really fit with a human faction, even though we've accepted it, time for her to go lead a faction of undead elves and let Bolvar take over, giving the horde a powerful racial leader. Sylvanas can return as an allied race leader for the San'layn /Darkfallen.


    I don't see why it can't be meaningful, and it comes across s cool to me, I'd love a far more powerful undead race with the sturcutre changing.. with his diminished power, he can still control mindless, but powerful enough Liches can have their own factions of undead allowing us to have undead squabbles and minions to attack not necessarily player faction ones. There is so much you can do.. just be creative.

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    He is undead and the ruler of the undead, how on Azeroth does him not leading the undead not make sense. How can he be in the alliance like he is? Come on dude.

    It's like that guy who thinks it make zero sense, but it's the opposite, how can the undead ruler of the dmaned be an alliance member? The faction hate undead even if the odd individual in it can see past their state. Also if there is no alliance undead faction? Again, here we go with perception problem. They still perceive him as alliance because of his roots and failing to factor in he is now undead. Do they have to actually draw the picture to connect the dots? Why do people on video game forums only process visual information but not the whole of the information that should order their perception.
    you understanding of the lore is 0

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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    A) I don't think matters, it's like when Sylvanas becamse leader of the forsaken while her people were still in the alliance, and when they joined the horde, she didn't rejoin them. Bovlar is undead, his daughter replaces him on the alliance, he has a different role since WotLK, he leads the undead. You don't get more suitable for that than Bovlar.

    b) THis is not a hinderance, the scourge is also neutral. If Bolvar leads the forsaken as their new leader, i assume thehorde DKs remain, andt he alliance DKS form their separate body or join Calia if they indead make the Lightforged undead an alliance race. To counter the Ebon Blade going horde, the Illidari go alliance, with the Blood elf ones choosing to lead a faction of Fel elves and do their own thing.. tHe night elf ones we will call Illidari, which we always have, and the blood elf ones we willc all Fel elves, which we always have.

    C). It's cool for races to have a capital, it's a key part fo the fantasy, a city is a key part of a race's identity, and nearly all races have, plus the game has enough race related assetse to give every homelss race a city except for maybe the Vulpera.(this would not have been a problem if the Sethrak were the allied race

    D) It is looking like that. Calia has the pediigree, But bolvar is a better candidate imo. He just looks the part. I do expect calia to be a Lightforged undead racial leader. The difference ofc, is that Calia hasn't been establisehd as a leader of anone, Bolvar has ruled the undead for years now.
    oh my god just shut up

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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Pretty sure the scourge are undead, as are the ebon blade and Bolvar rules over both. He may not control the forsaken faction of undead, but he is certainly fit enough to do so.

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    SEeing as we know what Sylvans is involved with in Shadowlands, andthe chance that she had a reason that was in the interestest of her people.. i can also see Sylvanas returning as Forsaken leader
    .


    Also there is the possiblity taht she and Bolvar might be swapped


    i.e. she becomes teh Lich Queen as punishmetn of sorts and Bolvar becomes Forsaken leader.
    im out of words.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Baine is probably the only one I would expect to say no. Thrall I think would come around with testimony from all of Nathanos' allies. Lor'themar, as well, lots of history with the undead who helped the Blood Elves when they were in dire need and no one else was there for them. Under Thrall's ideals, Nathanos' willingness to do what is told of him for the greater good is a trait he'll need if he ever wants the rest of the world to turn over to his level of thinking. But if Thrall sentences people like Nathanos who were either being manipulated or just following orders, then he's turning away from the very ideals he preaches. Nathanos is in a position to give Thrall a chance to correct the kind of mistake he made with Garrosh before and actually be a collective leader where it is necessary. Thrall can make these kinds of tiny improvements to make Azeroth better for everyone. The mindset of kill everyone who opposes the mentality or convert everyone isn't, hasn't, and won't work across the board. People like Nathanos represent the skepticism and cynicism of undeath, where hope is devoid and gone and they're forsaken and seen as monsters. Even in this quite literal example, people would burn Nathanos at the stake as a criminal when other characters like Varok walked tall and proud doing a lot of the same horrors to different people under different banners simply because of what species he is. Nathanos doesn't get a break because he's Forsaken? He is, then, truly Forsaken. If Thrall most of all can't see that part of the picture, then he's blind.
    Sorry, but "I was just following orders" doesn't excuse one from crimes in any kind of reasonable civilization.

    Nathanos doesn't get a break because he hasn't conducted himself in the same manner as Varok. Also, Varok died trying to make things right. What's Nathanos done lately?

    Who knows. Maybe Blizzard will actually have some good writing for once and it'll turn out like you say. Either way it should provide for interesting reading.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Frinata View Post
    Arthas wasn't dead when he put the crown on, but he's always been categorized as Undead.

    No seriously, there is no point in Warcraft III in that he died, or atleast was said upfront to have died. His soul was claimed by Frostmourne, sure, but he was living and kicking through the rest of the Human campaign, and then the Scourge Campaign.

    This is nothing canon or anything, I won't say that this is what it is, but what a possible reason for the change in that, is that the Helm of Domination is what 'kills' you and makes you Undead
    no soul=dead.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Goat View Post
    He is not the controller of ALL the Undead, like you originally stated. He controls the Scourge. I never said the Scourge weren't undead.

    He is not fit to control the Forsaken. He is not Forsaken. And it makes absolutely no sense that a former Alliance militant, that was killed by the Forsaken, would suddenly offer to become their leader, a Horde race.

    Bolvar is literally the worst possible candidate.
    He's not controlling anything at the moment without the Helm of Domination.

    Which leads to the next part of this. The Forsaken don't have a leader, but neither do the Scourge. Which...if I'm remembering correctly, are supposed to overrun Azeroth or something if left unchecked. I wonder if Blizzard will address that at all during Shadowlands. Because if all of Azeroth's heroes are off in the SL dealing with that mess, then who's going to stay behind and handle the Scourge?

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    He's not controlling anything at the moment without the Helm of Domination.

    Which leads to the next part of this. The Forsaken don't have a leader, but neither do the Scourge. Which...if I'm remembering correctly, are supposed to overrun Azeroth or something if left unchecked. I wonder if Blizzard will address that at all during Shadowlands. Because if all of Azeroth's heroes are off in the SL dealing with that mess, then who's going to stay behind and handle the Scourge?
    thats the pre expansion event.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Sorry, but "I was just following orders" doesn't excuse one from crimes in any kind of reasonable civilization.

    Nathanos doesn't get a break because he hasn't conducted himself in the same manner as Varok. Also, Varok died trying to make things right. What's Nathanos done lately?

    Who knows. Maybe Blizzard will actually have some good writing for once and it'll turn out like you say. Either way it should provide for interesting reading.
    A list of people Nathanos has helped or otherwise aided: Rokhan, Thalyssra, Talanji, Gallywix, Lilian, Amalia Stone, Tattersail, Thomas Zelling, Eitrigg, Rexxar. Let's also keep in mind Varok has killed innocents too, to the extent equates it to 'the sound of swine being slaughtered that resonates the loudest'. What sounds did Nathanos hear from that tree? Nathanos hesitated before he launched the catapult, didn't he? I think Nathanos on some level regrets what he did. Keep in mind, Nathanos is clinically undead emotionally. Azerite was recently discovered, the power of which threatening the whole Horde's survival if they didn't strike first. And yet, despite this, Undercity is still later lost. I think Nathanos has only ever done in the moment what he could to protect as many people in his immediate vicinity that he was able, and occasionally had to make realistic and cold and deadly sacrifices to win a grueling war that by its nature took many casualties. The spark that lit the world tree... if it hadn't happened, would the war have been prolonged much longer and resulted in much more death? Nathanos, perhaps despite having to follow orders to survive in a world that would otherwise see him destroyed, is doing his best to still work alongside and influence for the better a lot of the Horde he comes across. Sylvannas has executed people she saw as defectors before, such as the time Calia organized the meeting of Forsaken and human families. Nathanos can be pragmatic as hell sometimes, but I don't think he doesn't have his reasons and I don't think he yet can be considered as evil yet especially considering the emotional condition undeath puts him in. Nathanos, I think at the very least should be given an opportunity.
    Last edited by Razion; 2020-01-22 at 04:53 AM.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Piamonte View Post
    thats the pre expansion event.
    I fully expect it to be just as underwhelming as the Ny'alotha raid ending. :/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    A list of people Nathanos has helped or otherwise aided:

    Rokhan
    Thalyssra
    Talanji
    Gallywix
    Lilian
    Amalia Stone
    Tattersail
    Thomas Zelling
    Eitrigg
    Rexxar.

    Let's also keep in mind Varok has killed innocents too, to the extent equates it to 'the sound of swine being slaughtered that resonates the loudest'. What sounds did Nathanos hear from that tree? Nathanos hesitated before he launched the catapult, didn't he? I think Nathanos on some level regrets what he did. Keep in mind, Nathanos is clinically undead emotionally.

    Azerite was recently discovered, the power of which threatening the whole Horde's survival if they didn't strike first. And yet, despite this, Undercity is still later lost. I think Nathanos has only ever done in the moment what he could to protect as many people in his immediate vicinity that he was able, and occasionally had to make realistic and cold and deadly sacrifices to win a grueling war that by its nature took many casualties.

    The spark that lit the world tree... if it hadn't happened, would the war have been prolonged much longer and resulted in much more death?

    Nathanos, perhaps despite having to follow orders to survive in a world that would otherwise see him destroyed, is doing his best to still work alongside and influence for the better a lot of the Horde he comes across. Sylvannas has executed people she saw as defectors before, such as the time Calia organized the meeting of Forsaken and human families.

    Nathanos can be pragmatic as hell sometimes, but I don't think he doesn't have his reasons and I don't think he yet can be considered as evil yet especially considering the emotional condition undeath puts him in. Nathanos, I think at the very least should be given an opportunity.
    Bro, I have to be honest. You need to learn some formatting.

    Second, jesus... You know why Nathanos does anything? Because it's what Sylvanas told him to do. He's not some kind of closet-saint struggling under difficult conditions. He's a cold-hearted, emotionless servant of the Dark Lady, and his actions show that. You're basically writing headcannon here.

    Anyway, I'm done with this particular discussion. You want to have whatever fantasies about a guy who's literally named "Blightcaller", more power to you. It's a game after all. Knock yourself out.

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