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  1. #81
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    You directly stated that you would not be surprised if Sylvanas was delusional to the point where her mental processes did not fit what was really going on.
    That is true, I did indeed say that - and at no point does that mean I implied it was objectively true, 100% the case, or the author's guaranteed intent. Merely that it was possible and given Sylvanas' general mental state, I would not be surprised by it. You then tried to push this into something I was claiming was entirely the case, when I was not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Nevermind that though. The idea that at no point in her time as Warchief, including when she was pondering the position that we now know she planned to get, or the war that she always planned to start for the purposes of bodycount she never thought about her goal at all but instead her heart's desire is explicitly stated to be Stormwind goes to show this. I ask again, do you seriously believe that it's logical or hell, intended, that more of Sylvanas' time is preoccupied thinking about how she's the first woman Warchief over the details of maximizing deaths for her apocalyptic plan that Ion himself says was her main drive at the time? I don't think you do. I don't think anyone does. I think you're trying to wedge all this together. The points I have brought up and listed are not subjective nor what they are because of dislike, it's that they're nakedly in contradiction with each other. It's not about blank actions later being recontextualized, it's about action + stated intent + mental intent not matching what we are later told.
    To a degree, I am trying to "wedge it all together" as you put it, as in I'm presenting a case and sequence of a events where inconsistency is minimized. The major flaw in your argumentation, as I see it, is in your ironclad belief that Sylvanas' thoughts on becoming Warchief were retconned by BfA, as opposed to a more gradual change in view and a development of circumstances as a result of as-yet unseen developments (to be explored more in depth in Shadowlands). As I've tried to explain a few times now, I don't believe Sylvanas set out to become Warchief - the Jailer set up these events on her behalf, with her none the wiser, until she was clued in later on in BfA and set out to make the most of the position now that she had it. You are taking a few things entirely at face-value without due analysis, just claiming "this is totally inconsistent" without trying to connect it logically. Most things do seem inconsistent when they go entirely unexplored - stripped of nuance and context, or framed into a very specific narrative for ulterior purposes. If the causal links between these changes do indeed go completely unexplored by the next expansion, you would be right that they're inconsistent, but since we have yet to see the material where these links have been said they'll be explored, I think you're putting the cart several miles in front of the proverbial horse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I said not one page ago that Sylvanas was not a character who played 6d chess and that the writers attempt to portray her as such was bound to fail. But the notion that is not what they're going for when they produce things like the post-Wrathgate coup, her temper tantrum in front of the Horde or the Derek plot as being complex and intelligent when in fact they're all blunders is simply wrong. They're telling us she's intelligent, driven and most of all that she's been pursuing this secretly for a very long time. All things not in evidence and that do not align with either her actions, which as we both agree are volatile, or her mentality. She is not written as an unreliable narrator, nor as someone who doesn't know what they're doing - when they have Bob say that this means she doesn't need the Horde or gush about how she's been planning this since before the writers had an inkling of this, they mean it.
    The difference between you and I here is that I don't think the writers ever tried to portray her this way, it's just a meme being shoehorned into the narrative because it's amusing. At no point is her blunder with Saurfang and the outburst leading to her ouster ever presented as complex or intelligent - it's an emotional reaction entirely down to her seething and unchecked rage. It was an obvious mistake, and her rationalizing of it isn't hyper-brilliant, it's pathetic (in a very obvious manner). She knows what she's doing, but she has a history of upending her plans due to her own emotional instability. She does it at Orgrimmar, she did at Darkshore, she'll likely do it again in Shadowlands. Again, she's quite consistent in this regard, regardless of her current agenda. Hell, you could even say she did it at Icecrown with her suicide - the mistake that started this particular narrative snowball rolling downhill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Your reading is wrong in the face of what we see in BTS. There is no possible reconciliation between "The loa appointed me, I don't want this job." and "I want this job, I planned for it. The Jailor appointed me". It simply does not carry. Either she planned it or she didn't. Either she wanted to be Warchief and valued the position - as she does in BTS, since she considers Vol'jin's command, that being from her Warchief, as being a very big deal that she had to obey, or she didn't care about the post and wanted it for self-enrichment alone. Either she envied his organisational skill (that we never see but nevermind) and her genocidal plan against Stormwind specifically was meant to raise the population as Forsaken, as she states there, specifically not to send them to the Maw, and that afterwards the Horde would split the lands, or she just wanted an overall genocidal campaign where as few as possible were raised to ensure maximum saturation of the Maw. You're trying very hard, but it just doesn't gel. The mere notion that Stormwind was meant to be raised means that what is her most desired goal in the book would be completely useless to her plan as regards the Maw.
    Change "I want this, I planned for it, the Jailer appointed me" to "I want this job now, it was arranged for me, the Jailer appointed me" and you'll be closer to my take on events. Again, not inconsistent with what we see in "Before the Storm" and later on in BfA's closing act. A very minor but fundamental difference in both causation and timing. As for Stormwind, I never disagreed that her plan was the one stated in "Before the Storm," but ask the next question: what do you think she planned to do with the increased ranks of the Forsaken from Stormwind's dead? Stormwind is the Human capitol, but it no means is the Alliance's only population-center. Would she not also go to war with Ironforge, the Exodar, Telogrus Rift, and anywhere else the Alliance gathered? Do you think the Alliance would see Stormwind destroyed and stand down entirely with no hint of retaliation? No, she'd lead the Forsaken and the rest of the Horde against the remaining Alliance because she would've ignited a total war that couldn't end until one side or the other was annihilated - feeding death as veritable smorgasbord. Thus, not inconsistent with both goals: strengthening herself via the Forsaken, and feeding the Jailer in the Maw.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I readily admit whenever I'm wrong. I was wrong about Sylvanas being an old god puppet for instance. I was not wrong about either the trajectory, conclusion or core story beats of BFA. If I am wrong and her motivation from BTS holds and ends up not contradicted in the final product I'd be the first to admit it. BTS, given that it sets up the conflict for BFA and provides us a window of Sylvanas's mentality at a time where she was already an agent of the Jailor should align with the latter or at least not outright contradict it. BTS goes beyond simply not providing evidence to providing contrary evidence. I too can attempt to do damage control, but I'd have to retcon a lot of shit and pretend I didn't read other elements for it to work.
    "Already an agent of the Jailer" tells us next to nothing about the specifics of her agency or employment. She first encountered and entered into some kind of compact with the Jailer back in Cata, yes; but we know nothing of the details of that nor do we know that it was the later plan to consign all souls to the Maw. Perhaps the Jailer simply allowed Sylvanas to return to her unlife with a future promise of service (not unlike her deal with Helya, which we also know little to nothing about). She's still be his agent, but up until that service being called in her goals would be her own. Again, you're doing a very narrow read for the express purpose of forcing inconsistency where none may be present, but the unaccounted for details provide far too much narrative room for thing to be properly explained. And since I can myself provide an adequate justification, it won't be hard for the writers to do so (as they obviously know more of the backstory than I do). Maybe they don't and ultimately it does go without explanation - then I'd be forced to agree it's entirely inconsistent and badly written. Wouldn't the first time for me, either. But the current round of grousing seems like much ado about nothing at the moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    It's stated to be her long form plan and working with Varian was a part of that. They could change their mind on this before release as a result of bitching, that's certainly happened before and shelving Sylvanas's prior goals to go for a different approach has happened twice in the past two years with BTS, then BFA. But for the time being, that's the newest and thus canonical stance on the issue. I would be glad if they ditch it, but so far they haven't.
    I don't see any evidence of that from what you linked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    No, because Sylvanas was happy with what she had in the areas she raised and was urging against further conflict. Less conflict means fewer people died, ergo, contrary to her goals.
    Again, depending entirely on what those "goals" were at the time period - you assume full cognizance of the Jailer's long-term plans where none may have been known. We don't even know when these two came up with that plan, so perhaps Sylvanas here was just biding her time and building up her forces without arousing too much suspicion or concern.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Yeah, I'll freely admit when it comes to Delaryn it's more wishful thinking than anything solid. To build up this character who parallels Sylvanas, who Sylvanas purposefully singles out to break down mentally and then raises for that purpose, only for the two to never interact further and for Delaryn to instead embrace a human holy undead with whom she has absolutely zero in common, rather than serve as a rebuttal to what we at the time thought was Sylvanas's despair-focused mentality is full wasted potential.
    I won't disagree that Delayrn is somewhat wasted here - seems like a squalid coda for what could have been a very interesting character and a sort of inverted mirror onto Sylvanas' character. Of course, it's still possible there's more to see in this vein, though I admit a high degree of doubt it'll come to pass.
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  2. #82
    Immortal Kithelle's Avatar
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    She is selfish and in pursuit of power/immortality she has been like this for a long time...only some players fooled themselves into thinking she did what she did for her people...that she was a decent person, a good girl in a world that wanted to keep her down. But now even they can't deny her motives and I notice things have been getting quieter and quieter on that front.
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  3. #83
    The Lightbringer gutnbrg's Avatar
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    Its crazy that shes been working with this jailor guy for all this time and no1 even had a hint of a clue...

  4. #84
    She did make sense to me before, but now she doesn't really. So for me the question should be opposite: Why doesn't Sylvanas make sense for you anymore?

    She lost her cool. That's why. She be cunning, clever and lurking in the background. Now she be all over the place, strong af, and I have this feeling that she will be the redeemer so she will be even more unlike herself. That's all my opinion. I don't like her in front of all I guess. Saying that, she is still cool. But not the same. But, still cool, oh yeah.

    Quote Originally Posted by gutnbrg View Post
    Its crazy that shes been working with this jailor guy for all this time and no1 even had a hint of a clue...
    Yup. I guess that's always going to be a fault with a game like this when the story is told for 2 hours every 6-8 months, but I sure hope we get something between 9.0 and Shadowlands release that will tell us something. Like War of Thorns.

    But a clue would be nice between all these years. Though I doubt this was in Blizzard's plans since the start so it's probably a fresh idea(like 2-4 years)
    Last edited by Doffen; 2020-01-22 at 12:27 AM.
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  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Th3Scourge View Post
    No, it doesn't. You can blame Steve "bald-headed fuck" Danuser
    thread winner right here, actually started laughing
    10/10 comment
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  6. #86
    Sorry for the late reply, got sidetracked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    That is true, I did indeed say that - and at no point does that mean I implied it was objectively true, 100% the case, or the author's guaranteed intent. Merely that it was possible and given Sylvanas' general mental state, I would not be surprised by it. You then tried to push this into something I was claiming was entirely the case, when I was not.
    You are, in said quote, noting that provided things continue to not match up, this would be an explanation you would accept. Unlike your assertion that what I need is a 100% accounting of Sylvanas' entire thought process, you did in fact push this argument as a back-up in the event that your other ways to explain away the way the prior and current narratives don't match up fail.

    To a degree, I am trying to "wedge it all together" as you put it, as in I'm presenting a case and sequence of a events where inconsistency is minimized. The major flaw in your argumentation, as I see it, is in your ironclad belief that Sylvanas' thoughts on becoming Warchief were retconned by BfA, as opposed to a more gradual change in view and a development of circumstances as a result of as-yet unseen developments (to be explored more in depth in Shadowlands). As I've tried to explain a few times now, I don't believe Sylvanas set out to become Warchief - the Jailer set up these events on her behalf, with her none the wiser, until she was clued in later on in BfA and set out to make the most of the position now that she had it. You are taking a few things entirely at face-value without due analysis, just claiming "this is totally inconsistent" without trying to connect it logically. Most things do seem inconsistent when they go entirely unexplored - stripped of nuance and context, or framed into a very specific narrative for ulterior purposes. If the causal links between these changes do indeed go completely unexplored by the next expansion, you would be right that they're inconsistent, but since we have yet to see the material where these links have been said they'll be explored, I think you're putting the cart several miles in front of the proverbial horse.
    There is nothing to connect it to logically. There is never an indication within the narrative that Sylvanas changed her position, indeed, we are told directly by Dev statements that per the new retcon, she was already working with the Jailor from as early as EoN. And even if we pretend that, the statement on the Warchief and Ion directly explaining that as of at least Teldrassil she was always planning to kill as many people as possible to give souls to the Maw didn't happen, all in the interest of your argument having any water, she already has this argument and plan within AGW, long before any prompt to have changed her mind on such a fundamental issue as what was previously described as what her and Nathanos had wanted for years, i.e to sack Stormwind (which itself comes the fuck out of nowhere, but never you mind). You may not believe Sylvanas set out to be Warchief and believe that BTS provides an accurate view of her wargoals, but the devs disagree and they're the ones putting this garbage together.

    The difference between you and I here is that I don't think the writers ever tried to portray her this way, it's just a meme being shoehorned into the narrative because it's amusing. At no point is her blunder with Saurfang and the outburst leading to her ouster ever presented as complex or intelligent - it's an emotional reaction entirely down to her seething and unchecked rage. It was an obvious mistake, and her rationalizing of it isn't hyper-brilliant, it's pathetic (in a very obvious manner). She knows what she's doing, but she has a history of upending her plans due to her own emotional instability. She does it at Orgrimmar, she did at Darkshore, she'll likely do it again in Shadowlands. Again, she's quite consistent in this regard, regardless of her current agenda. Hell, you could even say she did it at Icecrown with her suicide - the mistake that started this particular narrative snowball rolling downhill.
    Actually, Sylvanas herself is not the main one to rationalize it. It's her dark ranger, Bob and the like who go on about how this clearly means she has no use for the Horde instead of that she had a temper tantrum over nothing and blew up her plan, which is a position that no one in-story takes despite it being the most obvious and correct interpretation of events to anyone consuming the story. My point in this whole line of argument is that Sylvanas has been presented as a schemer and even past failures have been rationalized as being part of some 5D chess plan, in now abandoned examples like claiming she did the Wrathgate or what have you. Her emotional outbursts to things that do provably take place do not translate to her being an unreliable narrator - she is never shown to not be able to view reality or to be operating on the level of bugfuck delusion that it would require to hold not just contradictory positions but positions contrary to events she personally set in motion or to hold motives that are entirely the opposite of what she actually set out to achieve, like the Varian, Vol'jin, Stormwind and Eyir examples to name a few.

    Change "I want this, I planned for it, the Jailer appointed me" to "I want this job now, it was arranged for me, the Jailer appointed me" and you'll be closer to my take on events. Again, not inconsistent with what we see in "Before the Storm" and later on in BfA's closing act. A very minor but fundamental difference in both causation and timing. As for Stormwind, I never disagreed that her plan was the one stated in "Before the Storm," but ask the next question: what do you think she planned to do with the increased ranks of the Forsaken from Stormwind's dead? Stormwind is the Human capitol, but it no means is the Alliance's only population-center. Would she not also go to war with Ironforge, the Exodar, Telogrus Rift, and anywhere else the Alliance gathered? Do you think the Alliance would see Stormwind destroyed and stand down entirely with no hint of retaliation? No, she'd lead the Forsaken and the rest of the Horde against the remaining Alliance because she would've ignited a total war that couldn't end until one side or the other was annihilated - feeding death as veritable smorgasbord. Thus, not inconsistent with both goals: strengthening herself via the Forsaken, and feeding the Jailer in the Maw.
    She planned to end the threat posed to her, a threat she didn't believe existed with Varian but is convinced would come for her with Anduin in charge. That's what her spiel in BTS in her mind is about. Further, we also know what she intends to do after - she does in fact intend to subjugate the world and split the Alliance territories between the Horde, using said territorial gains to appease them for having raised the people of Stormwind. To claim that there's no appreciable difference between the population of the Alliance's main city going to the Maw and them being raised and thus, given her plan was also to make the Forsaken immortal in that book, not go to the Maw at all is laughable. What makes it even more so is that in said book, she considers death to be no light matter at all and is furious at the Desolate Council for intending to die, since that would send them to hell. BTS is, while a destruction of the Forsaken in nearly every other aspect, in line with Edge of Night when it comes to Sylvanas' conclusions on death and her overall goal of growing the Forsaken to protect them and thus herself. The Maw reveal is not, and the plan she aims to put into motion would result in world domination for her and thus no present risk to her corporeal existence but get her absolutely nowhere in the cosmic goals she's now revealed to have that have never previously been so much as suggested.

    "Already an agent of the Jailer" tells us next to nothing about the specifics of her agency or employment. She first encountered and entered into some kind of compact with the Jailer back in Cata, yes; but we know nothing of the details of that nor do we know that it was the later plan to consign all souls to the Maw. Perhaps the Jailer simply allowed Sylvanas to return to her unlife with a future promise of service (not unlike her deal with Helya, which we also know little to nothing about). She's still be his agent, but up until that service being called in her goals would be her own. Again, you're doing a very narrow read for the express purpose of forcing inconsistency where none may be present, but the unaccounted for details provide far too much narrative room for thing to be properly explained. And since I can myself provide an adequate justification, it won't be hard for the writers to do so (as they obviously know more of the backstory than I do). Maybe they don't and ultimately it does go without explanation - then I'd be forced to agree it's entirely inconsistent and badly written. Wouldn't the first time for me, either. But the current round of grousing seems like much ado about nothing at the moment.
    The Jailor's plan involves sending souls to the Maw. That is his designation in the Shadowlands, it's what he does - and we're told their goals align at least up to the point where Sylvanas breaks into the Shadowlands, which requires her to have the power to beat the Lich King, which is a power provided to her by the Jailor. Ergo, for as long as Sylvanas was an agent of the Jailor, so Cata at earliest, she should've been maximizing the number of souls sent to the Maw, which she most definitely doesn't. Unaccounted for details are better described as nonexistent details - there is no 'there' there. There is presently nothing and there is nothing that can do it because a plan that involves raising people in a set area and then preventing your own demise by not engaging in excess conflict and preserving your people is the exact opposite of a plan that involves purposefully not raising people and stirring up conflict to maximize deaths. Likewise, one of these goals has plenty of textual backing going back years and years and the other has existed for about four months of real time and doesn't even align with the mental process of its character from a book meant to hype the expansion where the reveal takes place. Any arc welding involved would require heavy retcons to EoN and BTS, along with all stories in between since Sylvanas also makes no mention fo this having allegedly been her plan in War Crimes, urges Garrosh against conflict and doesn't expand after securing Lordaeron. Hell, supposing we can assume Sylvanas is honest when she's emotional, they also need to ditch the part where she rants at Vereesa for sparing Garrosh and thus causing countless deaths which should be something she wants, but that's not a big deal since that was only spoken, not thought or acted upon.

    I don't see any evidence of that from what you linked.
    It tells you flat out she planned to be Warchief and her working with Varian was part of that. That is the present working plan. It could be ditched, but at present it's the most current source of lore.

    Again, depending entirely on what those "goals" were at the time period - you assume full cognizance of the Jailer's long-term plans where none may have been known. We don't even know when these two came up with that plan, so perhaps Sylvanas here was just biding her time and building up her forces without arousing too much suspicion or concern.
    Sylvanas pushes quite heavily against the war and explicitly doesn't expand. This is despite the fact that if she did what she actually ended up doing, i.e sitting out from the war as much as possible and letting Garrosh take the brunt of hte hits she could maximize death at no loss to herself. However, despite this, she curiously still only has criticism for Garrosh for engaging in needless conflict and is quite against going to war with Varian in BTS, only doing so because it's his son in the chair. The Jailor's plan up to the point where we know for certain they align is not complicated nor requires much understanding - Kill as many people as possible to gain as much power as possible to break into the Shadowlands and presumably bust him out of prison.

    I won't disagree that Delayrn is somewhat wasted here - seems like a squalid coda for what could have been a very interesting character and a sort of inverted mirror onto Sylvanas' character. Of course, it's still possible there's more to see in this vein, though I admit a high degree of doubt it'll come to pass.
    Yeah, I'm pretty sure that if she did have a plan, it's dunked. Which is a shame because Delaryn would be a leagues more fitting nemesis for her than fucking Calia and her reconnecting with her people and with Elune and rejecting Sylvanas's worldview (or what we figured was her worldview at the time, but whatever) would fit far more than her having to be taught love and peace by a human priest of the Light.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Are you talking about the time Genn stopped her from enslaving a Titan Watcher to be her personal resurrection pet?
    Is there supposed to be a rebuttal contained in here somewhere?
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    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
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    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  8. #88
    Yeah after she became warchief it made perfect sense blizzard was going to shit on her dark story and turn into....whatever the hell she is now, and know blizzard shes going to turn out to be some hero that guides ppl in the afterlife and use that as a fight against the void.

  9. #89
    When played Legion for me it is was that she is only after getting immortality to herself and when that failed he start other way to get power for herself only and f*** all others

  10. #90
    There really was never much that made no sense. Sylvanas is an evil murderer with no regard for anyone but herself.

    She will gladly sacrifice anyone and everything if it means that she will survive and a long the way she demonstrated a level of villiany that is only topped by the cosmic baddies like Sargeras and N'zoth. That is all there is to her. She is a bad guy and we will kill her. There is not a single piece of evidence to suggest anything else. The fact that the Horde tolerated and encouraged her for so long only shows the warped sense of morals and honor that faction has developed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    She is selfish and in pursuit of power/immortality she has been like this for a long time...only some players fooled themselves into thinking she did what she did for her people...that she was a decent person, a good girl in a world that wanted to keep her down. But now even they can't deny her motives and I notice things have been getting quieter and quieter on that front.
    You are wrong, they can and they actively are denying all of this, the stuff I read on this forum in defense of her is astounding. And if they cannot outright defend it, they attack Alliance characters to make it appear like they are just as bad as Sylvanas. Usually it is either Stormheim, Taurajo or Dalaran that excuse the outright genocide of the Nightelven race that this undead has commited.

  11. #91
    Made sense till icecrown, post that, nah. Now, entirely nope.

    It smells to much as retcon on retcon on retcon because they never had clear plans for where she was going.
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  12. #92
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    Lol you're naive as fuck if you believe this was her goal since ice crown. Blizzard just retconned her behavior and plans to fit their needs.

  13. #93
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    You are, in said quote, noting that provided things continue to not match up, this would be an explanation you would accept. Unlike your assertion that what I need is a 100% accounting of Sylvanas' entire thought process, you did in fact push this argument as a back-up in the event that your other ways to explain away the way the prior and current narratives don't match up fail.
    I presented it as an alternative, you insisted it was a "back-up." I said it could well be possible, although I'd agree it'd need a strong justification in Shadowlands to achieve (something like Sylvanas being under the Jailer's mental influence or control, or what have you). I'm pretty sure the developers nixed that as a justification, but it would be far from the first time they've gone the other way on such pronouncements (e.g. Grom being the final boss of WoD). Either way it remains a possibility, but one I only crouched as a possibility, pending the promised information in the Shadowlands story-arc. Goes to the notion that Sylvanas' seeming contradictory thoughts and deeds can indeed be rationalized and made consistent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    There is nothing to connect it to logically. There is never an indication within the narrative that Sylvanas changed her position, indeed, we are told directly by Dev statements that per the new retcon, she was already working with the Jailor from as early as EoN. And even if we pretend that, the statement on the Warchief and Ion directly explaining that as of at least Teldrassil she was always planning to kill as many people as possible to give souls to the Maw didn't happen, all in the interest of your argument having any water, she already has this argument and plan within AGW, long before any prompt to have changed her mind on such a fundamental issue as what was previously described as what her and Nathanos had wanted for years, i.e to sack Stormwind (which itself comes the fuck out of nowhere, but never you mind). You may not believe Sylvanas set out to be Warchief and believe that BTS provides an accurate view of her wargoals, but the devs disagree and they're the ones putting this garbage together.
    Again, I've already opened the question as to what her "working the Jailer" means in this context - you're making the possibly erroneous assumption that the entirety of the plot was hatched in "Edge of Night," and I don't think there's evidence for that yet. Hence our disagreement on the matter of continuity here. I also don't think the interpretation effects Teldrassil either way, as I previously explained - whether she accumulated souls for the Maw from the Fourth War itself or the razing of Teldrassil changes nothing in the final accounting, and so isn't inconsistent. I also disagree with your take on what the dev's have said, as I think you're rushing to a false conclusion here and not taking into accounting all the other concerns previously laid out. Additionally, I think you *want* to rush to said conclusion because it is the worst possible one in terms of quality of story - to put it bluntly, I think you want the story to be terrible. In your eagerness to show this, you've rushed to a few false or unsupported judgments without necessary information and context. Like I said before, you could ultimately be right (which would be tragic for WoW as a whole), but we currently lack the full picture to prove such.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Actually, Sylvanas herself is not the main one to rationalize it. It's her dark ranger, Bob and the like who go on about how this clearly means she has no use for the Horde instead of that she had a temper tantrum over nothing and blew up her plan, which is a position that no one in-story takes despite it being the most obvious and correct interpretation of events to anyone consuming the story. My point in this whole line of argument is that Sylvanas has been presented as a schemer and even past failures have been rationalized as being part of some 5D chess plan, in now abandoned examples like claiming she did the Wrathgate or what have you. Her emotional outbursts to things that do provably take place do not translate to her being an unreliable narrator - she is never shown to not be able to view reality or to be operating on the level of bugfuck delusion that it would require to hold not just contradictory positions but positions contrary to events she personally set in motion or to hold motives that are entirely the opposite of what she actually set out to achieve, like the Varian, Vol'jin, Stormwind and Eyir examples to name a few.
    I am referring to her rationalizations shown in the Loyalist cut-scene following the foreshortened Battle of Orgrimmar, where Sylvanas muses on her change in circumstances and tries to paint it as "her plan all along" in a way. This isn't posited as any kind of 5-D Chess or what have you, it's just post-hoc rationalization and denial of her failure, throwing up her hands and saying "doesn't matter, N'Zoth will kill them all anyways." I never claimed her emotional outbursts made her an unreliable narrator, either; if anything makes her an unreliable narrator it's her overblown arrogance and fundamental hubris - Sylvanas is the kind of personality who cannot ever be wrong, and thus cannot ever be taken to task for the horrid things she does, at least in her own mind. Sylvanas has a history of trying to justify atrocities both small and large, I don't think that's in dispute - and she's a massive hypocrite to boot. So far, so consistent insofar as I'm concerned. Simply put Sylvanas' justifications, even in her own mind, may not directly map onto the reality of things. Deeply narcissistic personalities always employ a fair degree of self-deception and delusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    She planned to end the threat posed to her, a threat she didn't believe existed with Varian but is convinced would come for her with Anduin in charge. That's what her spiel in BTS in her mind is about. Further, we also know what she intends to do after - she does in fact intend to subjugate the world and split the Alliance territories between the Horde, using said territorial gains to appease them for having raised the people of Stormwind. To claim that there's no appreciable difference between the population of the Alliance's main city going to the Maw and them being raised and thus, given her plan was also to make the Forsaken immortal in that book, not go to the Maw at all is laughable. What makes it even more so is that in said book, she considers death to be no light matter at all and is furious at the Desolate Council for intending to die, since that would send them to hell. BTS is, while a destruction of the Forsaken in nearly every other aspect, in line with Edge of Night when it comes to Sylvanas' conclusions on death and her overall goal of growing the Forsaken to protect them and thus herself. The Maw reveal is not, and the plan she aims to put into motion would result in world domination for her and thus no present risk to her corporeal existence but get her absolutely nowhere in the cosmic goals she's now revealed to have that have never previously been so much as suggested.
    And her spiel in "A Good War" is more or less a pack of lies she's telling Saurfang, though; so presenting it as it were the actual truth of her thoughts is mistaken in my views. I'm pretty sure we both know that Sylvanas doesn't actually fear Anduin, or even Genn, but she wants the Horde (and especially Saurfang) to buy in to her rationale for war. Her thoughts in "Before the Storm" concern her desires for Stormwind specifically, a different matter altogether, concerning the bolstering of her Forsaken and an ultimate conclusion of whatever it is she has planned. I think you're conflating the two things unnecessarily. They are part of an overall plan, sure; but they're different movements all the same - and, as I said above, the same end is served either way. War always equals death, whether you open it with a genocidal razing of a capitol city or not. Sylvanas dominating Azeroth is going to require that the vast majority of the Alliance die in the process, there's no other means for her to secure such a victory - so the idea of feeding the Jailer and the Maw is also served by this. The two aspects of the conflict as presented in "Before the Storm" and later in "A Good War" are reconciled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Jailor's plan involves sending souls to the Maw. That is his designation in the Shadowlands, it's what he does - and we're told their goals align at least up to the point where Sylvanas breaks into the Shadowlands, which requires her to have the power to beat the Lich King, which is a power provided to her by the Jailor. Ergo, for as long as Sylvanas was an agent of the Jailor, so Cata at earliest, she should've been maximizing the number of souls sent to the Maw, which she most definitely doesn't. Unaccounted for details are better described as nonexistent details - there is no 'there' there. There is presently nothing and there is nothing that can do it because a plan that involves raising people in a set area and then preventing your own demise by not engaging in excess conflict and preserving your people is the exact opposite of a plan that involves purposefully not raising people and stirring up conflict to maximize deaths. Likewise, one of these goals has plenty of textual backing going back years and years and the other has existed for about four months of real time and doesn't even align with the mental process of its character from a book meant to hype the expansion where the reveal takes place. Any arc welding involved would require heavy retcons to EoN and BTS, along with all stories in between since Sylvanas also makes no mention fo this having allegedly been her plan in War Crimes, urges Garrosh against conflict and doesn't expand after securing Lordaeron. Hell, supposing we can assume Sylvanas is honest when she's emotional, they also need to ditch the part where she rants at Vereesa for sparing Garrosh and thus causing countless deaths which should be something she wants, but that's not a big deal since that was only spoken, not thought or acted upon.
    Again, more information is needed as concerns the timetable for these events. The substance of Sylvanas' arrangement with the Jailer in "Edge of Night," when exactly the machinery of Death broke such that all dead souls were consigned to the Maw as opposed to the Arbiter's process of judgment, when and if the Jailer conspired with Sylvanas further in "Before the Storm," "A Good War," or BfA itself, the actual design of the plan itself and the ultimate goals of Sylvanas concerning them, etc. etc. Reaching a conclusion without this necessary information isn't really workable, in my view - you can speculate, sure; but you shouldn't crouch it as an ironclad conclusion. I know you definitely expect the worst - but it's my hope that we don't get that in the final accounting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    It tells you flat out she planned to be Warchief and her working with Varian was part of that. That is the present working plan. It could be ditched, but at present it's the most current source of lore.
    A conclusion we don't share in, unfortunately. I think that snippet is a lot more open to interpretation than you do - you've already had your mind concluded on it, which is what I consider a fundamental flaw in your argumentation. I await further info to be convinced this is the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Sylvanas pushes quite heavily against the war and explicitly doesn't expand. This is despite the fact that if she did what she actually ended up doing, i.e sitting out from the war as much as possible and letting Garrosh take the brunt of hte hits she could maximize death at no loss to herself. However, despite this, she curiously still only has criticism for Garrosh for engaging in needless conflict and is quite against going to war with Varian in BTS, only doing so because it's his son in the chair. The Jailor's plan up to the point where we know for certain they align is not complicated nor requires much understanding - Kill as many people as possible to gain as much power as possible to break into the Shadowlands and presumably bust him out of prison.
    Easy enough for Sylvanas to let Garrosh do the job of feeding the Maw while she can remain in the shadows and profess innocence - might also explain why she never opposed him in any real sense until the rest of the Horde had decided to do the same, and why her participation was always distant even when their coup was realized. There's also the possibility that mass death itself is not the only thing the Jailer wants - as we touched upon before, the Jailer may want specific souls sent to him, or it could be a matter that the souls of heroes or powerful beings carry more essential anima than others. Again, we don't know what we don't know.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  14. #94
    I hope Arthas ends her again in the Shadowlands that’d help make up for the shitty intro cinematic of her easily defeating Bolvar.

  15. #95
    People can't handle character growth. Their "favorite toys" aren't allowed to change. Not that Sylvanas has actually been allowed to change and grow. Only her role has. But even that is too much for people to handle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerraw View Post
    Someone at BioWare said it best a couple of years ago:
    "You could give the player a [Magic Hat] that would give them the exact gaming experience they ever wanted, and they would still complain about the colour of the hat."

  16. #96
    Until BfA she wasn't evil, she was trying protect her people, a people that cannot reproduce. That is a noble cause whether people agree with actions taken in service of that action or not. Her heart, until now, was always in the right place. No idea what they're doing with her now though.

    Garrosh, OTOH, was never noble. He felt ogres were the master race. that's not noble...that's wow nazi.
    M.A.A.A. Make America Adult Again

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Until BfA she wasn't evil, she was trying protect her people, a people that cannot reproduce. That is a noble cause whether people agree with actions taken in service of that action or not. Her heart, until now, was always in the right place. No idea what they're doing with her now though.

    Garrosh, OTOH, was never noble. He felt ogres were the master race. that's not noble...that's wow nazi.
    Of course, and I suppose the people she murdered to develop her bio-chem weapon (including her own Forsaken, great way to protect them) and when she blighted Gilneas for the fun of it were sacrifices on that noble way? Oh and that time she wanted to murder her sister and her nephews so she would have some company in the Undercity. Yep, she is a shining hero.

    Puuuuhhleeeaaasseeee....

    You also probably should read what she thought about "her people" as early as Edge of Night (both Elves and Forsaken), that should give you an idea of her true character.

    The only thing that changed in BFA is that she is more in the spotlight and thus her evil plots are less hidden, basically she lost the ability to slink in the shadows and let the Horde hide her crimes. Something she is very unhappy about in BTS btw.

    @Kithelle
    See what I mean?

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Of course, and I suppose the people she murdered to develop her bio-chem weapon (including her own Forsaken, great way to protect them) and when she blighted Gilneas for the fun of it were sacrifices on that noble way? Oh and that time she wanted to murder her sister and her nephews so she would have some company in the Undercity. Yep, she is a shining hero.

    Puuuuhhleeeaaasseeee....

    You also probably should read what she thought about "her people" as early as Edge of Night (both Elves and Forsaken), that should give you an idea of her true character.

    The only thing that changed in BFA is that she is more in the spotlight and thus her evil plots are less hidden, basically she lost the ability to slink in the shadows and let the Horde hide her crimes. Something she is very unhappy about in BTS btw.

    @Kithelle
    See what I mean?
    Its cool you can't read and understand what i wrote.
    M.A.A.A. Make America Adult Again

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Its cool you can't read and understand what i wrote.
    Hmmmmm, so instead of actually giving me a reasoning as to why she is not evil despite all the monstrous crimes she has commited, none of which ever in the service of "protecting her people", you accuse me of being illiterate while it is clear I read what was written about her and you did not? Yep, makes sense.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Is there supposed to be a rebuttal contained in here somewhere?
    No, really, I'm asking whether you're referring to that time she tried to enslave a Titan Watcher to serve her bidding after a deal with Helya and then Genn stopped her.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by muto View Post
    I hope Arthas ends her again in the Shadowlands that’d help make up for the shitty intro cinematic of her easily defeating Bolvar.
    It would be so karmic and comical. Too bad it's unlikely to happen.

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