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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Tekkommo View Post
    Ferals do very good DPS on short fights. All fights are short in MC.

    Feral DPS drops off in AQ40 and Naxx (as fights should last longer than 30 secs), but they will be very good in MC and BWL. Ret won't, Ret will never be good in Classic.
    Um.......what? Check the stats. You are wrong. Jesus classic fans, data matters.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Caperfin View Post
    Yes. If you account for contribution dps and a competent spriest.
    Again, no. Either you have a learning disability or you fundamentally do not understand how parses work.

    A spriest with a 100th percentile parse is approx a 85-92 warrior parse, but the difference between 90 and 100 for warriors is over 1k dps.

    Which means, the 1st warrior is doing something like 1,1k dps more than the 1st spriest. It's, quite literally not comparable.
    Last edited by OriginalName; 2020-01-23 at 12:04 PM.

  3. #63
    Elemental Lord Tekkommo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Um.......what? Check the stats. You are wrong. Jesus classic fans, data matters.
    Yeah, feral can do 800+ DPS on MC bosses, will be the same in BWL. Fights will be longer in AQ40 and beyond so their DPS falls pretty big.

    800+ DPS is very good, indeed it's not great like Fury Warriors (I never claimed they were, I just claimed Feral CAN do very good DPS). Feral will start breaking into 1k+ DPS when they have BWL gear and high PVP rank gear.

    Check the stats, you are wrong.
    Last edited by Tekkommo; 2020-01-23 at 12:10 PM.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Oh my god that twisted logic. First off, no, dont oversimplify the issue, this just isnt accurate. And secondly, just buff the Fury warrior and destroy the feral. This is EXACTLY the same logic as the clowns pre launch saying Ret would be highly competitive, because of some video of a fully buffed and meme specd ret in BIS gear doing more damage than some fresh 60 in greens with no buffs.

    Compare like for like, or dont compare at all.

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    You think racism is something to laugh and joke about? Or am i missing something here?
    Yes I think you're missing something here lol. Are you just being racist against me because I'm a hunter?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampyrr View Post
    The only thing I find surprising is the way you list values of High-Low like a psychopath. If dps is between 220 and 168 it would be shown as 168-220, your way is the equivalent of eating a burrito starting in the middle.

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    Then you phrase it like Blizzard discriminates against hunters and not use a term that in no stretch could ever apply.
    Stop telling me how to speak just because I'm a hunter. Guess you are racist against us too.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    11 Million? I am always curious where people find these numbers YEARS after Blizz stopped making them public.
    These probably are the numbers at the start of Classic, or for the whole time Classic exists. I did a little research on warcraftlogs - there are about 100k rogues that killed Ragnaros. Taking into account rogue is one of the most popular classes we can make a rough estimate that around 1m ppl killed Rag worldwide. There is also some people still levelling or some that doesnt go to raids or dont do logs, but I believe these are minority, also many people are already quit because of being bored and crazy ganking everywhere. So now its probably 200-500k ppl playing - which is still quite a number.

    Obviously Classic is not "the best and most popular game ever" - sorry fanboys, but is well and really alive - sorry haters.

  6. #66
    Immortal TJ's Avatar
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    As a Hunter, I'm doing decent. Was smashing everybody to start, but now as people have gotten gear it's way harder to get top dps and near impossible on some fights. I expect to drop off even further in BWL and for it to just get worse into AQ and Naxx. Sucks to be a Hunter, really.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Yes I think you're missing something here lol. Are you just being racist against me because I'm a hunter?

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    Stop telling me how to speak just because I'm a hunter. Guess you are racist against us too.
    Sure am! Only hunters I like are Demon Hunters :P

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalName View Post
    Again, no. Either you have a learning disability or you fundamentally do not understand how parses work.

    A spriest with a 100th percentile parse is approx a 85-92 warrior parse, but the difference between 90 and 100 for warriors is over 1k dps.

    Which means, the 1st warrior is doing something like 1,1k dps more than the 1st spriest. It's, quite literally not comparable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    Haha, nope. I know you want to believe this horseshit, but it's wrong.

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    This delusion is on the same level as a Trump supporter.
    ah shoot sorry meant to say caster dps. my bad. I assumed people would not automatically compare them to roided out fury warrior dps but with other casters.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    you missed my question:

    what DEFINES 95% percentile ?

    if wclogs go and take all parses in account and compare them and define 95% percentile on the 5% that reached the highest performance value, well... then, when everybody and his mother reach this value, it will no longer be 95% percentile. it will become 50% percentile.

    so the whole argument is complete bull shit. WHEN wclogs calc it that way.

    when it is a „total number setted in stone“ then its another thing...
    Yeah you have it right, the differences between 95-99% parses are minute, and as people gear through BWL and continue to run MC what were previously 95% parses will no longer be. Warcraftlogs can toggle parse % based on ilvl though, so your old parses will basically be saved via that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TJ View Post
    As a Hunter, I'm doing decent. Was smashing everybody to start, but now as people have gotten gear it's way harder to get top dps and near impossible on some fights. I expect to drop off even further in BWL and for it to just get worse into AQ and Naxx. Sucks to be a Hunter, really.
    It's not so bad in Naxx tbh because you have the gear to move into a deep Survival build. One of the main issues with Hunters in Naxx is that we don't get our weapon upgrade until KT.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    No they aren't. Immolate is ALWAYS worth casting (if we're talking about things in a vacuum/debuff slots not being an issue) even if half or more of your +damage is shadow. If you have Bane, the DPCT of Immolate is about 40% higher than Shadowbolt... even if it crits. Its higher if the Shadowbolt doesn't crit (and the up-front portion of Immolate can crit, too) Sipon Life is always worth casting, as well. Its DPCT (1.5 seconds and its 100% coefficient (actually 200% cut in half because it heals) is amazing. In a setting where you CAN use them, they are ALWAYS worth casting over a Shadowbolt (ALL of your DoTs are). This was true - even as Affliction, Immolate was ALWAYS worth casting until it was removed as a spell Affliction could get - until well into Cata, which is the last time i paid attention to that kind of thing.

    Combined, all 4 DoTs tick for roughly the damage of a non-crit Shadowbolt every 3 seconds, and, combined, only cost you about 3 shadowbolts per DoT cycle (mostly because of Immolates shorter duration). Theyre always a decent dps increase. Particularly since 3 of them gain from ISB and Shadow Weaving. And that doesn't include the possibility of Nightfall procs.



    Even in current gear, Warlocks (particularly Shadowbolt spamming SM/Ruin or DS/Riun) are threat limited. There's no inherent threat reduction of any kind, unlike literally every other DPS (and dont even start on "well you could run Imp with MD" - yeah, then, not only are you "gaining" the benefit of the threat reduction from the imp.. you're ALSO self-gimping your DPS by 15%, lowering your threat even more.)

    Warlocks will be threat limited pretty much forever. Im not sure tank TPS can ever really deal with a warlock going balls-out, even in Naxx, though in Naxx, said Warlock would have to be very well geared and very skilled (97% percentile) to regularly pull of the tanks, and most people aren't that good, and the tank doesn't have to be "great" to do tha tlevel of TPS (which is relatively passive if the tank is doing his rotation right).
    I did the math on the dots, and you are partly correct, Immolate is a decent dps increase, siphon life on the other hand is not.
    Siphon life is not a 100% coefficient, but its calculated with 0.5% spell damage every tick. which on my math, set it at neither a dps loss nor a dps increase, so pretty much pointless to use cause you do the same damage with it as without it, but nice if you want the healing(but more threat per tick due to healing)

    However, my math did not account for shadowbolt crits, and imp shadowbolt, so in reality dots are not as powerfull as the math i did, and their power will get smaller thus more gear you get. So after doing the math, using dots are a dps increase, but not a major one, and the entire point of my previous point, was that the debuff slots are not the reason for warlocks low dps right now, but the lack of hit and crit is.
    And the more hit and crit you get, thus more powerfull does your shadowbolt become compared to your dots.
    If you look at the gear from a Stage 2, and compare it to full naxxramas BiS. your spellpower doesnt actually increase that much, but the amount of hit and crit increases A LOT. This means that dots doesnt really scale that hard, while shadowbolts scale insane.


    As for your point about threat, i was certain i had added a part about threat, but i must have edited that part out for some reason.
    In late gear, Threat will be a big limitation, hard to say really how much TPS a tank in naxx gear will be able to put out compared to a warlock, private servers work a bit different in that part (From my experience, tank threat is much higher on classic than on privates)

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by ssviolett View Post
    These probably are the numbers at the start of Classic, or for the whole time Classic exists. I did a little research on warcraftlogs - there are about 100k rogues that killed Ragnaros. Taking into account rogue is one of the most popular classes we can make a rough estimate that around 1m ppl killed Rag worldwide. There is also some people still levelling or some that doesnt go to raids or dont do logs, but I believe these are minority, also many people are already quit because of being bored and crazy ganking everywhere. So now its probably 200-500k ppl playing - which is still quite a number.

    Obviously Classic is not "the best and most popular game ever" - sorry fanboys, but is well and really alive - sorry haters.
    That is literally a guessing game. It could be 1 million, it could be 15 million. I just dislike it when people use rnd numbers to support their argument.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by TJ View Post
    As a Hunter, I'm doing decent. Was smashing everybody to start, but now as people have gotten gear it's way harder to get top dps and near impossible on some fights. I expect to drop off even further in BWL and for it to just get worse into AQ and Naxx. Sucks to be a Hunter, really.
    I feel realllllly bad for the hunters not aware of their negative scaling.

    But if hunters did competitive dps, AND were the best grinders, AND could do all the farming tricks they can with FD, they could be busted and overplayed. So I dont know.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    I feel realllllly bad for the hunters not aware of their negative scaling.

    But if hunters did competitive dps, AND were the best grinders, AND could do all the farming tricks they can with FD, they could be busted and overplayed. So I dont know.
    Best farmers are Mages, imo. They can make way more money than Hunters can, and they're also one of the top dps classes. Bullshit really, but Mages have always been Blizzard's favourite.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalName View Post
    on par with warlocks, i.e bad compared to the good classes, but middle of the road overall.
    Which in Classic language (where min maxing is king) means garbage bad for most serious guilds.

    Mind you i hate it as well, but this is the Classic community.

    Side note: it will get better with Bloodvine set from ZG for any non mage casters, but the issue is that mage in t2,5 and t3 will get so much power creep that it will hardly matter,

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Gratlim View Post
    Which in Classic language (where min maxing is king) means garbage bad for most serious guilds.

    Mind you i hate it as well, but this is the Classic community.

    Side note: it will get better with Bloodvine set from ZG for any non mage casters, but the issue is that mage in t2,5 and t3 will get so much power creep that it will hardly matter,
    Well, you still have specific uses in raids, damage however is clearly not why you're being brought.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    94% of people would disagree with you. The point of being 95% is that you are at the very top of the meters over everybody. All 11 million people that play classic.
    99% of all people somewhere in the world will disagree with you!

    See, I can make up lots of fake numbers too...11 million, thanks for the laugh!
    Hope, the greatest power of all!

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  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Roxyfoxy View Post
    I did the math on the dots, and you are partly correct, Immolate is a decent dps increase, siphon life on the other hand is not.
    Siphon life is not a 100% coefficient, but its calculated with 0.5% spell damage every tick. which on my math, set it at neither a dps loss nor a dps increase, so pretty much pointless to use cause you do the same damage with it as without it, but nice if you want the healing(but more threat per tick due to healing)

    However, my math did not account for shadowbolt crits, and imp shadowbolt, so in reality dots are not as powerfull as the math i did, and their power will get smaller thus more gear you get. So after doing the math, using dots are a dps increase, but not a major one, and the entire point of my previous point, was that the debuff slots are not the reason for warlocks low dps right now, but the lack of hit and crit is.
    And the more hit and crit you get, thus more powerfull does your shadowbolt become compared to your dots.
    If you look at the gear from a Stage 2, and compare it to full naxxramas BiS. your spellpower doesnt actually increase that much, but the amount of hit and crit increases A LOT. This means that dots doesnt really scale that hard, while shadowbolts scale insane.


    As for your point about threat, i was certain i had added a part about threat, but i must have edited that part out for some reason.
    In late gear, Threat will be a big limitation, hard to say really how much TPS a tank in naxx gear will be able to put out compared to a warlock, private servers work a bit different in that part (From my experience, tank threat is much higher on classic than on privates)
    Threat isnt an issue if you have a good tank and are in a good guild. Which means not having a deep prot warrior tanking, plenty of classes will have problems pulling threat if you have a deep prot warr tanking. There should be one mitigation tank that is deep prot who usually will OT stuff, and then on specific fights he may MT but itd be rare. No reason why a guild shouldnt be having a DW tank MTing, its not that hard to heal and it makes encounters WAY easier because of how much more DPS your raid can push. I main lock and in my previous guild I had problems with threat because the tank just refused to go DW despite me telling him for months(eventually did after I left for a better guild) where id come very close to ripping threat even giving him a 10-15 sec buffer where im not even starting to DPS to start the fight. Now with my current guild with a good DW tank, im pushing way more DPS than I Was before and guess what? Cant say threats really ever been an issue on bosses.

    But im not sure why OP or people in this thread think Locks are like towards the bottom tier in MC, theyre not if youre good, although they take a bit of raid utility to maximize their damage (aka having a spriest for shadowweaving for one). Even though I dont have Shadow weavings +15% shadow damage debuff in my raid and I NEVER get a PI, my average best parse is still like 96.5(to put in perspective how much SWing helps a lock, itd easily be over 98 JUST from having a spriest in my raid). Ive still managed to push 740 dps on Golemag WITHOUT SWing, if I actually had that I would have had a 850 DPS parse(since its just a flat 15% buff to my damage) which would have been a roughly top 50 parse in the world for that boss, instead its only like 250ish. Best parse on Gehhenas is 670 WITHOUT SWing or PI, should have been more like 770 if I could just get a god damn spriest in my raid. Now is that fury warrior-tier DPS on those bosses? No but its still very competitive with them and rogues and ive beat some rogues before on those bosses, although 700-800 DPS is usually a bad-OK parse for our rogues on Golemag. The biggest issue is obviously the lack of Hit available for Locks which hurts their ability to have consistent DPS and makes it even MORE RNG based than it already is for locks (since boss fights are so fast in MC, you can only get off so many SBs so if you get bad crit RNG it can just completely screw your DPS, crits are super important since it puts ISB debuff on the boss and since we get 150% crit damage on spells). So having Locks get SWing's +15% shadow damage debuff or getting PI makes it much easier for a Lock to have more consistently high DPS even if they get poor RNG. I know there are some guilds who allow their locks to get setup to pump as much DPS as possible and generally those locks are usually towards the top of the meters for most bosses.

    Really all you need to do is have an spriest in your raid and get good RNG on a boss in MC and a lock should be towards the top with mage/warrior/rogues as long as it isnt an AoE/cleave fight, their only issue is CONSISTENTLY being up there due to the need for decent RNG on both resists and crits. Once Locks start getting hit in BWL though, Locks should be fairly consistently competing for top spots on the meters, especially as gear scales and they get more crit to go with that. By the time BWL is over, a lock in BiS gear could and should easily be topping meters on many bosses since BiS gear for BWL should have Locks having nearly 540+ SP 4-5% hit and 20%+ chance for destro spells to crit unbuffed. If you setup your raid to buff Locks damage then theres no reason a Lock in that gear shouldnt be competing for the top nearly every boss.
    Last edited by hc7; 2020-01-25 at 10:04 PM.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by NihilSustinet View Post
    why are you looking at such low percentiles? i dont care what dps the shitters are doing.
    I guess he forgot all posts are supposed to provide only data that you want.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
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  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by hc7 View Post
    Threat isnt an issue if you have a good tank and are in a good guild. Which means not having a deep prot warrior tanking, plenty of classes will have problems pulling threat if you have a deep prot warr tanking. There should be one mitigation tank that is deep prot who usually will OT stuff, and then on specific fights he may MT but itd be rare. No reason why a guild shouldnt be having a DW tank MTing, its not that hard to heal and it makes encounters WAY easier because of how much more DPS your raid can push. I main lock and in my previous guild I had problems with threat because the tank just refused to go DW despite me telling him for months(eventually did after I left for a better guild) where id come very close to ripping threat even giving him a 10-15 sec buffer where im not even starting to DPS to start the fight. Now with my current guild with a good DW tank, im pushing way more DPS than I Was before and guess what? Cant say threats really ever been an issue on bosses.

    But im not sure why OP or people in this thread think Locks are like towards the bottom tier in MC, theyre not if youre good, although they take a bit of raid utility to maximize their damage (aka having a spriest for shadowweaving for one). Even though I dont have Shadow weavings +15% shadow damage debuff in my raid and I NEVER get a PI, my average best parse is still like 96.5(to put in perspective how much SWing helps a lock, itd easily be over 98 JUST from having a spriest in my raid). Ive still managed to push 740 dps on Golemag WITHOUT SWing, if I actually had that I would have had a 850 DPS parse(since its just a flat 15% buff to my damage) which would have been a roughly top 50 parse in the world for that boss, instead its only like 250ish. Best parse on Gehhenas is 670 WITHOUT SWing or PI, should have been more like 770 if I could just get a god damn spriest in my raid. Now is that fury warrior-tier DPS on those bosses? No but its still very competitive with them and rogues and ive beat some rogues before on those bosses, although 700-800 DPS is usually a bad-OK parse for our rogues on Golemag. The biggest issue is obviously the lack of Hit available for Locks which hurts their ability to have consistent DPS and makes it even MORE RNG based than it already is for locks (since boss fights are so fast in MC, you can only get off so many SBs so if you get bad crit RNG it can just completely screw your DPS, crits are super important since it puts ISB debuff on the boss and since we get 150% crit damage on spells). So having Locks get SWing's +15% shadow damage debuff or getting PI makes it much easier for a Lock to have more consistently high DPS even if they get poor RNG. I know there are some guilds who allow their locks to get setup to pump as much DPS as possible and generally those locks are usually towards the top of the meters for most bosses.

    Really all you need to do is have an spriest in your raid and get good RNG on a boss in MC and a lock should be towards the top with mage/warrior/rogues as long as it isnt an AoE/cleave fight, their only issue is CONSISTENTLY being up there due to the need for decent RNG on both resists and crits. Once Locks start getting hit in BWL though, Locks should be fairly consistently competing for top spots on the meters, especially as gear scales and they get more crit to go with that. By the time BWL is over, a lock in BiS gear could and should easily be topping meters on many bosses since BiS gear for BWL should have Locks having nearly 540+ SP 4-5% hit and 20%+ chance for destro spells to crit unbuffed. If you setup your raid to buff Locks damage then theres no reason a Lock in that gear shouldnt be competing for the top nearly every boss.
    Man, thats a LOT of words - just link the data - obviously you have proof of these claims - just link the data. No need for the novel.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Roxyfoxy View Post
    I did the math on the dots, and you are partly correct, Immolate is a decent dps increase, siphon life on the other hand is not.
    Immo is undoubtedly a dps increase over SL, especially with: Flame Buffet, fire pot, can crit

    Quote Originally Posted by Roxyfoxy View Post
    And the more hit and crit you get, thus more powerfull does your shadowbolt become compared to your dots.
    True but there was some very interesting research before ClassicWoW into a fire warlock, which did rely on immolate somewhat. I'd be curious to see the max dps of a dot lock (assuming debuffs slots).

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