Garrisons, Artifacts, Azerite, Corruption and so on share the same problem

[Jessicka]

They are systems that overshadow playing WoW for WoW’s sake. You’re playing WoW around them to feed the systems, and ultimately that is always going to detract from what made WoW what it was.

In respect of Garrisons they replaced much of the game in themselves, but in levelling an Alt through WoD now, I see it, all the quests were still about feeding the beast.

In Legion, it took until the last patch before I felt I could get in and do content for its own sake and it’s own agendas, and not just as a part of grinding for AP.

BfA has been much the same. Though even now I struggle to motivate much to play my main at level cap because it’s just feeding the cloak and corruption.

None of it feels relevant to the game beyond feeding a temporary system that won’t matter and won’t exist in a few months. It’s not good gameplay and they’re just not systems that suit WoW as a wider game.

[Relapses]

The devs agreed so they're changing all of them in SL.

/thread?

[Zeek Daniels]

They are systems that overshadow playing WoW for WoW’s sake. You’re playing WoW around them to feed the systems, and ultimately that is always going to detract from what made WoW what it was.

Dont presume to know why i play wow. Everyone plays wow for different reasons. and keeps playing wow for different reasons and stops playing wow for different reasons.

[Mace]

They are systems that overshadow playing WoW for WoW’s sake. You’re playing WoW around them to feed the systems, and ultimately that is always going to detract from what made WoW what it was.

In respect of Garrisons they replaced much of the game in themselves, but in levelling an Alt through WoD now, I see it, all the quests were still about feeding the beast.

In Legion, it took until the last patch before I felt I could get in and do content for its own sake and it’s own agendas, and not just as a part of grinding for AP.

BfA has been much the same. Though even now I struggle to motivate much to play my main at level cap because it’s just feeding the cloak and corruption.

None of it feels relevant to the game beyond feeding a temporary system that won’t matter and won’t exist in a few months. It’s not good gameplay and they’re just not systems that suit WoW as a wider game.

Do you remember what problem those systems were created to solve? (I don't really include Garrisons, as that wasn't meant to affect your characters power level, it was just a feature that ended up boring many people and consuming most of their time because they designed its uch that you needed to do it optimsie it to assist your character).

However artifact onwards were systems that solved a very important problem.. if you remove them and just go back to WoD days and earlier, you get the same problem since classic that isn't going away. Now can you tell me what that problem is?

I think people are just tired of having to grind, that's more the issue than the fact there is a system in place, but then this is exactly what levelling is,.. if you are not enjoying the journey, then the developers have to make that process enjoyable enough so that it doesn't feel like a grind.

But you do have to have 2 year progression system that's more than collecting pieces in a raid, that allows people to be at a close enough level playiing field..especially in pvp (hence the new system) and catch ups too, etc.

However you ACTUALLY need to do something in that 2 year gap, that improves you in relevant ways, continuing to depend soley on tier pieces in new season year in year out, patch in patch out got old as far back as classic, I now cos I noticed it, Legion was the first time a real solution came.

[deenman]

The devs agreed so they're changing all of them in SL.

/thread?

well considering the devs also agreed with titanforging rng being an issue,and then come out with corruption,a system multiple magnitudes more rng than titanforging,forgive me for being a little scared of them thinking the same about these systems,and by the looks of it,covenants are going to be just that,a horror version of ap but FAR FAR worse

[Relapses]

well considering the devs also agreed with titanforging rng being an issue,and then come out with corruption,a system multiple magnitudes more rng than titanforging,forgive me for being a little scared of them thinking the same about these systems,and by the looks of it,covenants are going to be just that,a horror version of ap but FAR FAR worse

Corrupted gear is conceptually far superior to TFing. If they tone down the power of the extreme affixes and boost acquisition rates a lot of the gripes about Corrupted gear will go away. They've already gone record to say they're happy with the way the system rolled out so we will likely get some iteration of it in SL.

[deenman]

Corrupted gear is conceptually far superior to TFing. If they tone down the power of the extreme affixes and boost acquisition rates a lot of the gripes about Corrupted gear will go away. They've already gone record to say they're happy with the way the system rolled out so we will likely get some iteration of it in SL.

oh i agree with the idea of coruption,its a better system than simple ilvl upgrades,and the negative side of it is also cool,but the issues are ike you said,extreme power of some vs others,and that would be SO bad if the damn chances werent 1 in 54 to get your best ones

[goldentforce]

So going into the artifact/azerite/corruption and concerns with covenant/conduit/whatever replaces corruption in SL, there is several issues that come up.
For a lot of the early days you had a talent points, your base class kit (which was big), tier sets, and some interesting trinkets. Most people were okay with this and getting new spells every expansion.
Later on glyphs were added .
Then the devs started having issues with things like smart players using trinkets for huge dps increases compared to bad players, them believing they could make a better talent system/systems being outdated, spell bloat, and finally boring gear.

This led to many issues as a result such as wide use of rppm, no more addition of spells, removal of things people liked to play with, loss of progression, and the systems first stated of temporary spells/effects/abilities. This is most highlighted in legion and one of the biggest issues IMO of the expansion where enjoyment of classes which is core to all of the game came from legendaries/artifacts/tier sets which were all in one swoop removed from the game and replaced with a failure called azerite. When the temporary class design/gameplay system fails, in addition to obviously other failures, the whole game suffers because classes are so core to everything. This is the issue with the system blizzard put forward in legion and are going to still be using in SL. Luckily they are spreading it out more to be like legion with 4 systems (legendaries, covenants, conduits, unknown gear system) this is another expansion with probably little progression of base classes and progression being temporary systems. Less feast or famine than bfa but still annoying.

Im not saying there shouldn't be systems that change during tiers/expansions I just think putting work into base classes then having a couple of systems should be enough. Blizzard probably spent more time trying to deal with the problems of legion/bfa gear than when they had to remove abilities and rework classes. I hate the feeling that things that feel good and improve gameplay are just deleted because they are temporary instead of being added to a class like most of the legion improvements in artifacts and legendaries. If they are more willing at least to make these successes base I would be more okay with dealing with all the temporary systems in the future.

[AlmightyGerkin]

Corrupted gear is conceptually far superior to TFing. If they tone down the power of the extreme affixes and boost acquisition rates a lot of the gripes about Corrupted gear will go away. They've already gone record to say they're happy with the way the system rolled out so we will likely get some iteration of it in SL.

No corruption gear is far worse than TF/WF would ever be. When a 425 item beats 465 or 475 cause it has one of the good enchantments. Know they fucked up somewhere. And also your statement "They've already gone record to say they're happy with the way the system rolled out" most bullshit ass statement. They could fuck everyone over and say they're happy. Take a good look at their game and take off the rose tinted glasses.

[Jessicka]

The devs agreed so they're changing all of them in SL.

/thread?

You don’t think Covenants are going to include elements of all these systems?

[Shaetha]

No corruption gear is far worse than TF/WF would ever be. When a 425 item beats 465 or 475 cause it has one of the good enchantments. Know they fucked up somewhere. And also your statement "They've already gone record to say they're happy with the way the system rolled out" most bullshit ass statement. They could fuck everyone over and say they're happy. Take a good look at their game and take off the rose tinted glasses.

Corruption is infinitely more mechanically interesting than titanforging. There is no argument that it isn't considering titanforging has literally no mechanics.

Arguing numbers when talking about something being mechanically interesting says something about your reading comprehension and your bias. You've decided to dislike something so much your opinion no longer matters because you made no effort to actually think, like 90% of people that make the exact arguments you've made in this post.

This is the literal definition of worthless feedback. No one that isn't playing the game for the wrong reason cares about numbers to the exclusion of everything else. Maybe the people that actually matter, aka the casual players, as opposed to the people that 100% bitch about everything regardless yet stick around these forums, or, even more stupidly still play, are happy. You don't know. Blizzard does know how people responded to it. You certainly only see the incredibly biased side of it. Assuming your opinion is shared by the majority is phenomenally self-centered either way.

TL;DR: if you're going to reply to someone, read what they've said and make an effort to actually have a thought.

[Lucetia]

In respect of Garrisons they replaced much of the game in themselves, but in levelling an Alt through WoD now, I see it, all the quests were still about feeding the beast.

Do what? You could literally do vast majority of the quests and they not "feed the beast". There was only a couple quests per zone that had anything to do with your garrison and that was primarily setting up a hub there and even then you could do that without a garrison.

In Legion, it took until the last patch before I felt I could get in and do content for its own sake and it’s own agendas, and not just as a part of grinding for AP.

Part of the problem is caring about AP grinds. If you played the game to play the game then it wasn't a huge deal as AP would come in from all sorts of content and you'd be at a reasonable level for any content. You didn't need max cap or anything unless you were pushing world firsts and even then it wasn't fully necessary. It mainly was because it helped made up for the lack of gear they have going in.

BfA has been much the same. Though even now I struggle to motivate much to play my main at level cap because it’s just feeding the cloak and corruption.

You are definitely trying to make this harder than it is. The cloak and corruption isn't as big of a deal as you make it. You only need to do the 3 assaults each week and you can have your cloak at a high enough level that you want it. Even then you don't even need it that high unless you are trying to stack as much corruption as you have gotten.

None of it feels relevant to the game beyond feeding a temporary system that won’t matter and won’t exist in a few months. It’s not good gameplay and they’re just not systems that suit WoW as a wider game.

Maybe you don't like it, but a lot do. Secondly, if you stop worrying about it then it doesn't matter. Not once this expansion have I worried about grinding AP or going out my way. I've basically done Island weekly for the mission, emissaries 1/2 the time, mythic+'s, some raids and the assaults and I'm almost 82 neck level. It's really not that hard or even a worry. Play the game and you get there without effort. Heck, even my alts are in the ~70ish range.

They are systems that overshadow playing WoW for WoW’s sake. You’re playing WoW around them to feed the systems, and ultimately that is always going to detract from what made WoW what it was.

Based on the above quotes you definitely aren't even sure what the issue is because the stuff you listed are gross exaggerations of any of the "issues" they provide. Mainly because you see them as a problem so everyone must see them as a problem. Thing is everyone who plays the game likes different aspects and majority won't see what you listed as a problem.

[Shaetha]

They are systems that overshadow playing WoW for WoW’s sake. You’re playing WoW around them to feed the systems, and ultimately that is always going to detract from what made WoW what it was.

In respect of Garrisons they replaced much of the game in themselves, but in levelling an Alt through WoD now, I see it, all the quests were still about feeding the beast.

In Legion, it took until the last patch before I felt I could get in and do content for its own sake and it’s own agendas, and not just as a part of grinding for AP.

BfA has been much the same. Though even now I struggle to motivate much to play my main at level cap because it’s just feeding the cloak and corruption.

None of it feels relevant to the game beyond feeding a temporary system that won’t matter and won’t exist in a few months. It’s not good gameplay and they’re just not systems that suit WoW as a wider game.

They do share a similar problem(except garrisons, those are not similar enough to attempt comparing.)

They're all things popular with the people who actually play the game that the tiny subset of players whose lives are a spreadsheet hate.

[AlmightyGerkin]

Corruption is infinitely more mechanically interesting than titanforging. There is no argument that it isn't considering titanforging has literally no mechanics.

Arguing numbers when talking about something being mechanically interesting says something about your reading comprehension and your bias. You've decided to dislike something so much your opinion no longer matters because you made no effort to actually think, like 90% of people that make the exact arguments you've made in this post.

This is the literal definition of worthless feedback. No one that isn't playing the game for the wrong reason cares about numbers to the exclusion of everything else. Maybe the people that actually matter, aka the casual players, as opposed to the people that 100% bitch about everything regardless yet stick around these forums, or, even more stupidly still play, are happy. You don't know. Blizzard does know how people responded to it. You certainly only see the incredibly biased side of it. Assuming your opinion is shared by the majority is phenomenally self-centered either way.

TL;DR: if you're going to reply to someone, read what they've said and make an effort to actually have a thought.

If you're going to reply to someone READ WHAT THEY"VE HAVE SAID. Only worthless feedback and as you put it cause it doesn't agree with you. Doesn't take a genius to know what happens on the ptr doesn't mean jack. Anyone can look at this system and think "hmm all these power buffs this system is giving you x y z maybe to op compared to the other ones." Look at the entirety of BFA people put feedback on all sorts of implements in wow ranging from the warfronts to the Islands to the Azerite and they shrugged it off and went with their own echo chamber of ideas.

And for your statements "You don't know" neither do you so don't be such a hypocrite and second Blizzard does know how people responded to it. May respond to it but sure as hell don't care as you can see the end result.

[MrLachyG]

You don’t think Covenants are going to include elements of all these systems?

Anima Power boosts the Soulbinds we get with each Covenant, and we know that will be capped. there will probably be a mission table but yeah that's about it

[kamuimac]

The devs agreed so they're changing all of them in SL.

/thread?

ye for sure

the fact that they didnt make essences account wide sure sounds as proof of such claim

[Jessicka]

They do share a similar problem(except garrisons, those are not similar enough to attempt comparing.)

They're all things popular with the people who actually play the game that the tiny subset of players whose lives are a spreadsheet hate.

Thing is, it's not a great game single player at the end game, it's better with other people and that leads to expectations from said spreadsheet folk in order to actually participate. Being a competent player is no longer enough. That leads to a lot of playing with blinkers on, finding a path of least resistance and grinding, not playing or paying attention, just to keep up to participate.

[Shaetha]

If you're going to reply to someone READ WHAT THEY"VE HAVE SAID. Only worthless feedback and as you put it cause it doesn't agree with you. Doesn't take a genius to know what happens on the ptr doesn't mean jack. Anyone can look at this system and think "hmm all these power buffs this system is giving you x y z maybe to op compared to the other ones." Look at the entirety of BFA people put feedback on all sorts of implements in wow ranging from the warfronts to the Islands to the Azerite and they shrugged it off and went with their own echo chamber of ideas.

And for your statements "You don't know" neither do you so don't be such a hypocrite and second Blizzard does know how people responded to it. May respond to it but sure as hell don't care as you can see the end result.

Literally irrelevant to what I was saying, but okay.

Also, you have to actually take a stance to be a hypocrite. Just so you know. All I did was tell someone a different point of view and tell them to actually think, since they clearly didn't. Neither did you, apparently. I'm glad they ignore people like you and the person I replied to. If they listened, they would be making a game for only you, which was my point.

Cool move chasing shadows though.

- - - Updated - - -

Thing is, it's not a great game single player at the end game, it's better with other people and that leads to expectations from said spreadsheet folk in order to actually participate. Being a competent player is no longer enough. That leads to a lot of playing with blinkers on, finding a path of least resistance and grinding, not playing or paying attention, just to keep up to participate.

The people that are actually hardcore aren't complaining. They casuals are happy. The only people that aren't happy are the people that want to think they're hardcore, but they whine and complain every time they actually need to invest time into their character.

The entire problem is people aren't very smart and think that "just grind harder" is going to fix the fact they're only doing 70% of their potential DPS when they're doing things like having a huge amount of downtime on a boss because they didn't plan their movement. They think that getting less than a 90% parse on a boss is bad when 90% of people aren't going to get a 90% parse, and far from everyone actually logs their raids.

They think that getting a bad item is a bad thing when bad items are required for there to be good items(the FFXIV problem.) If you're good, you don't need your best items to win and never have. If you're not, no amount of items is going to make up for the amount of potential wasted by you not trying to improve you.

Work smarter. Get better. Always be trying to figure out what you can do better. Stop playing the game to get the rewards. It's not healthy. You should be playing the game because you want to do so. Treat the rewards as a kind of scoring system.

I know the meme is the real game is the friends you made along the way, but it's absolutely true for any game that requires a social element. WoW is not a very complex or interesting game when you really get down to it. The entire point is the groups you make. Yes, there are some people that like it for what it is. The vast majority of people are going to be looking for more, and all the game ever had to offer there was the social experience. I think a lot of people have forgotten that, and it's not even the game's fault. People in general have been allowed to avoid socializing because of mail order and delivery services. They just don't know how to do it anymore.

[Rogue Karl]

The devs agreed so they're changing all of them in SL.

/thread?

I want to believe them but I've been let down before. Alpha will decide it. If anything is in alpha that is a grind. Times the time it takes by 12 then decide if it's worth it.

- - - Updated - - -

Literally irrelevant to what I was saying, but okay.

Also, you have to actually take a stance to be a hypocrite. Just so you know. All I did was tell someone a different point of view and tell them to actually think, since they clearly didn't. Neither did you, apparently. I'm glad they ignore people like you and the person I replied to. If they listened, they would be making a game for only you, which was my point.

Cool move chasing shadows though.

- - - Updated - - -



The people that are actually hardcore aren't complaining. They casuals are happy. The only people that aren't happy are the people that want to think they're hardcore, but they whine and complain every time they actually need to invest time into their character.

The entire problem is people aren't very smart and think that "just grind harder" is going to fix the fact they're only doing 70% of their potential DPS when they're doing things like having a huge amount of downtime on a boss because they didn't plan their movement. They think that getting less than a 90% parse on a boss is bad when 90% of people aren't going to get a 90% parse, and far from everyone actually logs their raids.

They think that getting a bad item is a bad thing when bad items are required for there to be good items(the FFXIV problem.) If you're good, you don't need your best items to win and never have. If you're not, no amount of items is going to make up for the amount of potential wasted by you not trying to improve you.

Work smarter. Get better. Always be trying to figure out what you can do better. Stop playing the game to get the rewards. It's not healthy. You should be playing the game because you want to do so. Treat the rewards as a kind of scoring system.

I know the meme is the real game is the friends you made along the way, but it's absolutely true for any game that requires a social element. WoW is not a very complex or interesting game when you really get down to it. The entire point is the groups you make. Yes, there are some people that like it for what it is. The vast majority of people are going to be looking for more, and all the game ever had to offer there was the social experience. I think a lot of people have forgotten that, and it's not even the game's fault. People in general have been allowed to avoid socializing because of mail order and delivery services. They just don't know how to do it anymore.

I raided six hours a week and full cleared raids for 8 years. I can't say I'm happy that it now takes more then six hours to simply keep up with everything outside of raiding.

Casual play is so crushed there is barely a alliance raid scene left.

Please dont confuse being bad at the game with being casual at it. The hardcore who both the ones who live and breath lfr and world quests are happy. Everyone else seems to be growing more and more annoyed.

[AlmightyGerkin]

Literally irrelevant to what I was saying, but okay.

Also, you have to actually take a stance to be a hypocrite. Just so you know. All I did was tell someone a different point of view and tell them to actually think, since they clearly didn't. Neither did you, apparently. I'm glad they ignore people like you and the person I replied to. If they listened, they would be making a game for only you, which was my point.

Cool move chasing shadows though.

Get out of the echo chamber you have encased yourself in you'd realize the stance I took was that the TF/WF system is better than the corruption system. You'd know that if actually did read what I had to say. And you stated "you have to actually take a stance to be a hypocrite but than your previous post said " You certainly only see the incredibly biased side of it." which makes your insult void as you contradicted yourself. As the stance I "took" in favor of the pre corruption system than the current one.