AV changes! Bliz listened.

[hc7]

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The only changes this will cause are:

• Longer queues for horde since premades won't pop half-empty AVs
• AV premades moving to WSG until someone develops premade addon

Horde literally shot their own legs off with QQ. It's amusing there was no mention of backdoor hotfix (into alliance base) whilst It's now apparently okay to change stuff. The current AV version favors horde in so many ways it'll never be balanced unless alliance plays in premades:

• All horde bases are chokepoints, easy to def
• Horde has mid control before alliance
• Backdoors available into alliance base
• Horde stone elemental is OP compared to alliance tree
• Horde population is generally way better geared and mounted thanks to P1 imbalance

They still haven't taken any real actions towards botters either. Cheat reports are leading nowhere and premades are the only way to escape bots. To anyone claiming AV is alliance sided, they're either talking of a different version or they're just repeating the urban legend without any arguments. This change will hurt both sides, only so much more alliance.

Lol is this even a serious post? How can you be both so ignorant and delusional?

Youre acting like "horde QQ'd" there way to a completely unneeded/unnecessary change that was only made because big bad blizzard wanted to make AV favor Horde. You do realize it was FIXED because it was...broken right? One side being able to non stop full 40 man premade while the other side has absolutely zero capability to premade at all was not Vanilla so incredibly clearly a broken, unintended mechanic. It legit hurts my brain when I think about how many delusional Ally there are that cannot comprehend something as incredibly simple as that. Unless youre claiming thats actually intended and thats how Vanilla worked? Hint: Its not.

"The current AV version favors horde in so many ways it'll never be balanced unless alliance plays in premades:"

Again, legitimately blows my mind someone can be this ignorant and delusional. For one, youre seriously trying to claim that it was BALANCED with Ally being able to full premade and Horde not being able to premade at all LOL? Let me know how Ally winning 90% of AV's im under 8 minutes is "balance"? Especially considering there was virtually nothing horde could really do to combat/compete with it other than try to turtle as a PUG, the only real way to combat that would be Horde to create their own premades to fight the Ally premades...but oh wait, that was impossible. But yeah, totally balanced when one side is able to win that often, that fast and it having next to NOTHING to do actually do with skill in PvP and everything to do with coordinated 40 man groups queueing into full PUGs nonstop.

Seriously, its baffling someone has the audacity to even mention the word "balance" in the same breath as Ally purely premading their way to 90%+ <8min wins with next to no effort or skill involved.

As for the AV map being Horde favored...I have absolutely no clue where Ally all the sudden got that idea from, but its been long established that it isnt, youre arguing something that is objectively false. I mean the results of the past few months LITERALLY just disprove everything youre trying to claim about it being Horde favored, never mind the fact its been known for a long time to be Ally favored.

"All horde bases are chokepoints, easy to def"
Yeah, theyre such great choke points and easy to defend, that must be why you can just zerg right past them and win in under 10 minutes unless 95% of the horde team turtles, right? LOL. Youre seriously so clueless and its so easy to prove the garbage youre saying as wrong. Not to mention, the Ally base is 10x easier/better defended because the Horde archer towers are barely able to get damage out because of the lay out leading up to them and how theyre incredibly easy to take over and kill their archers(especially since you can literally just run through the fence on the right side and right into the the tower. The ally bridge(because ya know...bridge=automatically a strategically strong choke point) on the other hand is an incredibly strong choke point and the 1st archer tower is able to hit horde as soon as theyre around half way on the bridge, and by the time youre on the other side of it, BOTH archer towers are able to hit you. Not to mention the tons of NPCs that will aggro you when running in on top of that, which dont exist for Horde. I mean how can you have the audacity to claim such a thing when you have to go over a freakin bridge to get to the Ally base, which is an incredibly strong choke by default.

"Horde has mid control before alliance"

And the significance of that is...what again? Its pretty much irrelevant, as seen by the 40 man Ally zergs that are able to just run by any Horde who get to mid before them. The reason why Horde get to mid faster is because Ally are able to get to Drek faster, but Horde getting to mid faster really does not matter. If Ally both got to mid faster and could get to Drek faster it would make Ally zerging EVEN MORE favored and more effective than it already is.

"Backdoors available into alliance base"

Lol always love it when Ally try to claim this is some huge advantage, not to mention in Classic AV...theres a spot Ally can back door the Horde base too LOL. If it were actually such a huge advantage like people try to claim, it would actually be used and abused...except it isnt because it really isnt very good. The only way it plays a significant role is if Ally have 0 or 1 person in their base and allow a horde stealthie to go up the back door and ninja aid station...which should really NEVER happen. The backdoor is INCREDIBLY easy to defend. And even if Horde wanted to send 20+ to the back door, you realize that it would actually turn into a strong chokepoint for the alliance right? Theres one small spot you can jump up, it automatically funnels Horde through one very small path and IIRC you have to be mounted to get up it. Not to mention there are NPCs close by, the Archer tower is literally right next to it. If Horde did try to do that, literally all it would take is a few hunters putting down entrapment specced frost traps on the small "backdoor" and having some mages/locks sitting there to AoE and youd literally FARM anyone trying to get through.

Some backdoor that is! Hence why it really hasnt been used much, nor has it proven to be some huge advantage in the 15+ years people have been playing AV...I think we would have figured it out by now if it actually was a significant advantage.

"Horde stone elemental is OP compared to alliance tree"

ummm...ok? And how exactly does that matter when Ally can just straight 40 man zerg and win WAY before it can even get summoned? Like do you even seriously contemplate the things youre saying? Its laughable. Its also not so significantly better than the Alliance tree that it makes a huge difference, or that it even gets summoned enough for that to make a big difference.

"Horde population is generally way better geared and mounted thanks to P1 imbalance"

LOL were REALLY reaching now, huh? No clue where you even got this idea from but there isnt even remotely any truth to it and you wouldnt be able to produce any evidence of it being true either. There is(certainly now) and was literally no noticeable or significant difference in gear levels overall and every Ally easily had the same ability and enough time to have an epic mount that Horde did before BGs came out. My god did you really reach for the shortest straw on this one.

Youre really trying hard to cope with the fact AV isnt incredibly Ally favored anymore and you cant just practically auto win 95% of AV's in <8 minutes with little to no effort while you watch netflix. And imagine...you actually just tried to argue that was a "balanced" thing. All Blizzard did was put both sides on an even playing field before the BG begins, it in no way AT ALL makes AV super horde favored. If it feels that way because Horde are winning a lot after the change thats due to Horde simply being better in PvP/AV, but there is no inherent mechanic, or the way the BG is developed that makes it easier for Horde to win.

[actiwe]

They only listen when the Horde are at a disadvantage. Fuck Ion and his Horde buddies

What? You realised how many alliance were screwed by AV premades?

[Schattenlied]

Private servers tried Blizzard's solution too and it didn't stop anyone.

Blizzard themselves tried this solution like 10 years ago and it didn't stop anyone, you'd normally end up with 30-35 of the premade making it into the same game.

[Majestic12]

Doesn't answer his question, Horde have at least a 40 min queue, how do you reliably get a premade in a AV?

Alliance have an instant queue, and we drop so many games to get in a game together.

You have actually queued as Horde in Classic right?

Personally, I have had no sympathy for the Horde. Everyone and their mother rolled Horde and was zug zuging world PvP on such Horde dominated servers. Then AV is in and they finally get to suffer for rolling on the blatantly bigger side. They had it coming.

[Twoddle]

Personally, I have had no sympathy for the Horde. Everyone and their mother rolled Horde and was zug zuging world PvP on such Horde dominated servers. Then AV is in and they finally get to suffer for rolling on the blatantly bigger side. They had it coming.

Not true, I rolled alliance.

[Hctaz]

Another thread about a change that OP likes dressed up as a bug fix. That is what a fix is. First it was the gy change. Now it's the group and label thing. What about the raid difficulty? Will you still be calling it a fix? Or will you pull your pitchforks out then. What about druids rezzing capabilities? Paladins taunt? Doing away with 16 debuff slots? Where does it end?

To be fair I agree with all the changes I have listed. I think it would make the game better. But the question is how far is too far. How many changes until we get ourselves into retail territory? Is it basic QoL changes like the ones listed. Is it reducing the cost of respec? Is it dual spec? Maybe it is a blizzard backed group finder. Maybe it's the LFD system we have now. There are 1000 different answers to that question and that is why it is absolutely stupid to make any changes at all. The line had already been drawn in the sand and now we are seeing that line move. We cannot trust Blizzard to make any changes and we cannot trust ourselves. This is the beginning of the end.

This isn't the beginning of the end lol. You're being completely overdramatic. They made some changes based on shitty behavior that was emerging from gameplay systems they had implemented in 2004-2006. It's fine that they're deciding to make some changes based on the fact that the games were kinda shitty for both sides involved.
They aren't going to do class changes. They aren't going to do all that nonsense for a basic Classic game. If they decide to release Classic + then maybe (though I'd heavily restrict any class changes to the new content only and not usable for older content just to prevent guilds carrying people through Naxx and the like), but for the base game? No. It's not going to slip slide down to where respec is free.

[Majestic12]

Not true, I rolled alliance.

What isn't true? Horde dominated more servers and have undeniably a larger total population, objectively.

[mkivtt]

They only listen when the Horde are at a disadvantage. Fuck Ion and his Horde buddies

Your tears are delicious.

"Mommy I can't zerg in a 40-man premade group and cheese paladin bubble pull anymore, I actually have to fight people on the same footing WAAAH WAAH WAAAAAAAAAAH!"

Cry more.

[Kagthul]

What isn't true? Horde dominated more servers and have undeniably a larger total population, objectively.

Umm.. no.

The resources we do have show that population is relatively even across the service, which is also what Blizz has said.

[mkivtt]

Umm.. no.

The resources we do have show that population is relatively even across the service, which is also what Blizz has said.

Shhhh, you are shattering the silly little illusion they love so much. "Boo hoo horde beat us in P2, you deserve it!!!!!" The truth is they are just god awful at PvP. Which explains why they so desperately want to keep their 40-man premakes in discord and their pathetic paladin cheese pull. It's the only way they'll beat horde teams, even if those horde teams consist of 5 random AFKers, 5 bots, 10 fresh 60s. Because they get crushed in pug vs pug.

[Majestic12]

Shhhh, you are shattering the silly little illusion they love so much. "Boo hoo horde beat us in P2, you deserve it!!!!!" The truth is they are just god awful at PvP. Which explains why they so desperately want to keep their 40-man premakes in discord and their pathetic paladin cheese pull. It's the only way they'll beat horde teams, even if those horde teams consist of 5 random AFKers, 5 bots, 10 fresh 60s. Because they get crushed in pug vs pug.

Lol, who are you, some random UD lock? You're welcome to try to beat our "shitty" premades in APES. Bet you couldn't even beat our casual team in WSG.

[Shockzalot]

Beta cucks will cry over anything these days. These changes were 100% necessary for the longevity of the game. It's always been Blizzard's stance to intervene in these types of situations. Discord didn't exist in Vanilla and Blizz always broke the group queue mods for AV. Alliance got their asses spanked in a BG that FAVORED them heavily. Blizzard balanced AV in TBC or Wotlk because this current rendition favored alliance rushing so heavily and the cucks couldn't get it done so they resorted to 40 man premades exploiting the warmaster with paladins and speed pots. This isn't changing classes/specs, dungeons/raids, ore/herb spawns, crafting, etc. It's fixing something that was being taken advantage of.

[actiwe]

Lol, who are you, some random UD lock? You're welcome to try to beat our "shitty" premades in APES. Bet you couldn't even beat our casual team in WSG.

So skilled being 40 man with rank 10 and 13 gear against 40 randoms. This was a good change for classic, hope we get rid of these nolife mafia guilds, they can go back to priv servers

[Jurwi]

because ranking in AV was never a thing in vanilla, so this is not a change, more of a fix.

All the chinese R14's on my server ranked in AV back in Vanilla.

[Coldfrostzero]

This only works if your group queueing is likely to force a new instance to spawn.

Since Horde has 30+ minute queues, the liklihood of mass-queueing and actually getting into the same instance is miniscule.

Practically, this only works for Alliance because of their instant queues.

Thanks for playing though.

Doesn't answer his question, Horde have at least a 40 min queue, how do you reliably get a premade in a AV?

Alliance have an instant queue, and we drop so many games to get in a game together.

You have actually queued as Horde in Classic right?

Just because it's unreliable doesn't mean it's impossible. Again, this has been in practice all the way to at least 2008 until they removed the number after the instance. Which is what they did in this change, removed the instance number. Doesn't matter if the queue is 30 minutes or 3 minutes, it's still possible.

Of course I have queued. Me and my friends AV together sometimes and were making sure if one got in, the other would single queue in. Exactly how we did it up to 2008. Majority of people get into AV 20, so everyone who can single queues to AV 20 or waits for the next premade to start. What a stupid silly ass question.

It's a CHANGE to the game and as I have said before, the no changes crowd should be losing their minds about this. Instead they are defending it which makes them hypocrites.

[Laqweeta]

No changes is a dumb idea and I'm glad Blizzard abandoned it. Lets say we suddenly find an exploit that was present but never found in 2005 that allows you to oneshot any boss. That exploit should be fixed, even if it existed back then. Similarly things that come up now that really screw up the game, like the premade meta should be addressed.

This is completely different than say, adding taunt to Paladins.

[Tekkommo]

Just because it's unreliable doesn't mean it's impossible. Again, this has been in practice all the way to at least 2008 until they removed the number after the instance. Which is what they did in this change, removed the instance number. Doesn't matter if the queue is 30 minutes or 3 minutes, it's still possible.

Of course I have queued. Me and my friends AV together sometimes and were making sure if one got in, the other would single queue in. Exactly how we did it up to 2008. Majority of people get into AV 20, so everyone who can single queues to AV 20 or waits for the next premade to start. What a stupid silly ass question.

It's a CHANGE to the game and as I have said before, the no changes crowd should be losing their minds about this. Instead they are defending it which makes them hypocrites.

A simple, we can't reliably do it would have been suffice.

No changes is a meme, we've had changes from the very beginning. Stop trying so hard to be a drama lama.

[Twoddle]

What isn't true? Horde dominated more servers and have undeniably a larger total population, objectively.

You said everyone rolled Horde.

[Coldfrostzero]

A simple, we can't reliably do it would have been suffice.

No changes is a meme, we've had changes from the very beginning. Stop trying so hard to be a drama lama.

I wasn't the one arguing it is impossible. Maybe not jump to an extreme when you're arguing?

There are those who swear by it, but then defend the changes. I want changes personally and I have no problem with it if it's for the health of the game. I do, however, dislike how some changes are acceptable and others aren't. I don't want to get to retail levels of changes, but there were obvious things that people asked for back then (myself included) that took them years to add due to technical limitations or super slow patch development.

[froschhure]

how can you be glad about changes in a game where everyone wanted NO changes.

the first change is only the beginning. HF