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  1. #21
    I actually agree with op. I think 8.3 cumulatively with previous patches has WAY too many over-engineered systems.


    And before people reply their piece, I am not talking about YOU - the guy in this forum who is for all intents and purposes invested into WoW and who can swallow it no issue - I mean I can too, I know what charts and guides to open to understand and work through it all just fine.

    But from the perspective of more casual players I can certainly see how this whole thing may start to be overly confusing and overbearing. Heck, if someone would return after long hiatus - that person would be totally in shock from all these systems, stuff and small text things to get a hold of.


    IMO, Blizzard needs to chill a bit in Shlands with all this. Too many systems at once is not good really, they should keep it more simple.

  2. #22
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    For some reason, in recent times Blizz have hyperfixated on the idea of seasonal content instead of content that can stand the test of time. So they'll engineer all these systems that are promptly abandoned for the next expansion, instead of doing what they did with mission tables and fine-tune the concept until it works well as an additional system. Islands were an attempt to fine-tune the Mists of Pandaria Scenario system, and I hope they continue to fine-tune the system further but it looks like they abandoned the system in favor of a Roguelike system for Shadowlands. Warfronts could be a promising system with some work and better design goals, but again, the system is getting abandoned as 'seasonal.' Azerite armor and Artifact weapons both function under the same endgame-advancement philosophy, and both render that endgame advancement pointless as it's all discarded with the gear reset, putting you back at 0.

    Would be nice if Blizzard designed a new system and worked it into the endgame as a permanent system to be fine-tuned and tinkered with until gotten right, like the mission tables born from the overbloated Garrisons, the Mythic+ dungeon system born from Challenge Modes and the raid system born from Icecrown Citadel 10H/25H.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    For some reason, in recent times Blizz have hyperfixated on the idea of seasonal content instead of content that can stand the test of time. So they'll engineer all these systems that are promptly abandoned for the next expansion, instead of doing what they did with mission tables and fine-tune the concept until it works well as an additional system. Islands were an attempt to fine-tune the Mists of Pandaria Scenario system, and I hope they continue to fine-tune the system further but it looks like they abandoned the system in favor of a Roguelike system for Shadowlands. Warfronts could be a promising system with some work and better design goals, but again, the system is getting abandoned as 'seasonal.' Azerite armor and Artifact weapons both function under the same endgame-advancement philosophy, and both render that endgame advancement pointless as it's all discarded with the gear reset, putting you back at 0.

    Would be nice if Blizzard designed a new system and worked it into the endgame as a permanent system to be fine-tuned and tinkered with until gotten right, like the mission tables born from the overbloated Garrisons, the Mythic+ dungeon system born from Challenge Modes and the raid system born from Icecrown Citadel 10H/25H.
    Well, I mean, if system has not delivered then should it really be artificially kept alive like that over the years? I think community reaction was mostly clear about Warfronts and Isles, so I don't think there is anything to touch up there and this will end this expansion.

    On the other hand M+ was well received and it is getting evolution in BFA with seasonal affixes, which, IMO, are good to keep things somewhat fresh and of course it will be there with Shlands too.

    Overall I think gear reset and system reset are ok - I can't imagine what kind of bloody mess it would be if we would not get systems reset and clean up every expansion.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Is DAU even reported to shareholders for WoW? I know that MAU is but I don't remember that DAU is anything they've ever put into a shareholder report.
    And why should shareholders care about MAU?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    WoW is like 99% bear ass collection simulator -- D-Rock

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Engineers will engineer, simple as that.
    Don't blame this on engineers, we usually aim for as simple as possible, as complex as needed as well as a good dose of "good practice".
    /tar Tinker-zealot /point /lol
    WoW:Shadowlands - Danuser's Divina Commedia?

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Zorachus View Post
    I've been playing since launch and more recently have become ultra casual, I still play 5 nights a week, but now just 20 minutes or so each night. Enough to do WQ cache stuff, or World Bosses, or a quick M+.

    BfA seems to have complicated or confusing character stuff, that the game really didn't have before;

    - Azerite gear ( which I don't mind now, it's ok, except when changing specs )
    - Island Expeditions = Ugh they suck
    - WarFronts = Ok to run for gearing up, other than that I call them AFK-Fronts
    - Essences added, it's ok, but an extra layer of shit
    - Now this whole Corrupted gear stuff, which I find super weird
    - Legendary's back, but just a cloak you level up. Do we really need this at the end of BfA
    - Titanic research WTF
    - Horrific Visions, I still don't see what the fuck they even are? Not a dungeon run, not a Raid, and sort of a Scenario thing that's solo'd or with a group? You need to watch your sanity or something? Be cool if they had this in the Group Finder like Dungeons and Raids.
    - Horrific Visions continued, you need to gather Vessels and spend them, and earn Corrupted Memo's, etc... Who the fuck created this whole mess, how was this a good idea and supposed to be fun?


    Why not just KISS (Keep it Simple Stupid ), you want to gear up, you run Normal and Heroic dungeons. Or do Normal, Heroic, or Mythic Raids. No AP crap. No Arzerite or Essences or Corrupted stuff. And for things to run at end game, it's Dungeons + Raids and that's it. I suppose keep World Quests in as they better than Dailies.
    At the end of the day the defining characteristic of Wow is now grind easy content for power. The reason they make such complicated systems is they're trying to obscure that reality by pretending each one is different, when it's all the same basic idea. Their theory has to be that people are addicted to the game and will keep playing as long as we give them anything to do, no matter how bad it is, as long as we don't make it obvious that we're just producing shit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metallourlante View Post
    It's not supposed to be fun, we are not in 2009. It's supposed to be frustrating and keep you hooked longer.

  7. #27
    Completely agree. When their systems were a mess to start, they doubled down and made it more complex and stacking along the way. It’s absurdly bad game design

    Classic should be their template for how to design a progression ladder, not diablo 3

  8. #28
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Well, I mean, if system has not delivered then should it really be artificially kept alive like that over the years? I think community reaction was mostly clear about Warfronts and Isles, so I don't think there is anything to touch up there and this will end this expansion.

    On the other hand M+ was well received and it is getting evolution in BFA with seasonal affixes, which, IMO, are good to keep things somewhat fresh and of course it will be there with Shlands too.

    Overall I think gear reset and system reset are ok - I can't imagine what kind of bloody mess it would be if we would not get systems reset and clean up every expansion.
    I don't think gear/system resets are bad by nature. I think the problem is when they're abandoned wholesale. Warfronts are a promising system that needed to be taken back to the drawing board and re-examined. Large-scale scenario content built like an RTS map could work well in WoW, but I'd say the biggest problem with Warfronts was too much time spent in the resource-gathering phase (which really should've been handled by peasant/peon NPCs) and too much empty space when it should feel like a constant push into the enemy base, like an RTS (how much dead air was there in WC3's later maps? Not much by my memory).

    Islands' biggest problem was that it turned into 'bum rush the high-value targets' zergs when they should have been designed with a more exploratory vibe in mind. Make it more profitable to hunt down high-value items that don't pop up on the map so you have to search for it, while fighting off the other faction AI party so they don't beat you to the punch. Again, a poor design that could have been fixed by going back to the drawing board, but instead Blizzard opted to double down on poor design and surprised-pikachu'd when that exploded in their faces.

    As far as the gear reset itself, I think WotLK had the best approach. High-end raid kits stayed relevant until you started raiding, making it feel like the work you put into the final raid had long-term benefits beyond having cool shit in the pre-expansion lull, while not trivializing any important content in the new expansion (sure, the bleeding-edge guilds cleared Naxx10 in t6, but by the time most raiders were running Naxx, they'd replaced their t4/5 sets in Heroics and kept the 2/4-piece bonuses for Naxx). Hell, i only really did t4 raiding and it still felt great to go to Northrend, start throwing down, and have it feel like the gear I worked for (and put up with a lot of guild-poaching fuckery for) still meant something; I didn't find something that felt objectively better before a Gun'drak run replaced my weapon (Despair, I think it was; the Romeo and Juliet 2h sword from Kara) with a blue that had better stats across the board.

    For things like the Artifact weapons and Azerite armor/essences, Blizz could/should have brought in a system to give players permanent endgame progression like the Artifact tree's pre-Legionfall upgrade. Something akin to the old talent trees with lots of incremental upgrades, so things don't get out of hand but you still see numbers tick up to reward gameplay and feel like all the time you sink into New Thing X isn't just going to be negated next expansion.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  9. #29
    Raids & dungeons are boring after so many years. It's quite simple that Blizzard trying find new system that aplease all. It's not about they overcomplicate things. They need something new for majority.

    (i said majority..not raiders)

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguinerd View Post
    I know but he's the scapegoat now so I'm just following suit.

    Besides as the EJ guild leader I'm assuming he's loving this stuff.
    No, he is responsible now, as per his job description. You are the lead, you are reponsible. That is what you are paid for.
    /tar Tinker-zealot /point /lol
    WoW:Shadowlands - Danuser's Divina Commedia?

  11. #31
    I'm not really a fan of M+ either but whatever... at long as you can avoid them and get everything from just raiding, they're fine. Same with islands. Why does everything have to be timed lately?

  12. #32
    They need to just go back to the Justice/Valor System.

    Justice Badges from Normal/Heroic Dungeons
    Valor Badges from Raids
    New Badges from M+ to keep M+ worthwhile

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