Does Sylvanas finally make sense to you?

[ravenmoon]

Does the shadowlands reveal make sense of Sylvanas and her leadership of the forsaken? To those who never thougth she felt horde, and that the forsaken weren't truly loyal to the horde. Those who play as a forsaken know the horde has always been a tool or means to an end for her. What exactly that means was we were never truly shown. Wrathgate made us think it was killing everyone, even though it was hard to believe.

Shadowlands makes us think it was all to cause as much death and mayham to feed the Jailor enough power to break free, and leading the horde helped achieved that end. This is because Sylvanas wants to end death and save herself/Azeroth in her own twisted way of looking at htings.

Do you buy all this? That htis has been Sylvanas' end game all along? The forsaken followed her loyally because she made them free, but she shows that she doesn't care more ofr themthan any other, and now she doesn't need them, she's gone off for the final end game?

Or is this all just too much b/s for you /quit?

[Arrashi]

I mean if anything shadowlands reveal made it so finally nothing makes sense. Sylvanas was playing 5-dimensional magic the gathering against herself all the time.

[Oakshana]

This hasn't been her end game ALL ALONG. This is something that did not begin until she "died" after falling from Icecrown. This fact has been stated numerous times. And while I think they have been ramping her up to be TOO strong, but sort of makes some inane sense with the Jailor (though, if I am being honest, they didn't have the Jailor concept in mind prior to Legion.)

Also, where the hell do you find the time to post so many threads. Jesus Christ...

[Varodoc]

Her goals make sense to me, she was always a genocidal maniac, case in point Gilneas from Cataclysm ("let the gilneans enjoy their small victory, NOT EVEN THEIR BONES WILL REMAIN BY TOMORROW!"). What does not make sense is her strategy. Why would she end the war prematurely just because she got injured in the eye? I was expecting a much more rational behaviour from Napoleon Windrunner.

[Maljinwo]

Sylvanas hasnt made sense since wotlk

[Leodok]

Not only does she still make no sense, the entire lore makes no sense by now.

[Super Dickmann]

It's pure nonsense that doesn't make sense even within the expansion it's introduced in terms of informing her decision-making. The writers themselves didn't know that'd be her motivation in the tie-in book meant to hype the expansion it was to be revealed in. Things like evacuating civilians from Undercity instead of letting them die, intervening in Ashenvale to save 'thousands' of soldiers, when letting them die would serve her goals better, being frustrated in her own mind about Malfurion - whom she allowed to survive, when killing him and torching the tree would maximize the body count.

And this is only within BFA itself. It goes without mention that Sylvanas wasn't helping send more people to hell when she was mass-raising undead in Cataclysm or trying to acquire Eyir for her explicitly mentioned purpose (in her mind) to make the Forsaken immortal, ergo unable to go to hell and thus enable to empower her.

There was no grand plan. Sylvanas' heart's desire in Edge of Night was to survive and to preserve her subjects to ensure that survival. Her heart's desire in BTS was to destroy Stormwind. Her heart's desire in BFA is to kill as many people as possible. I am going to go out on a limb here and tell you that her goal will change in Shadowlands as well and there too we will be told that all along it was something else entirely.

[ONCHEhap]

Sylvanas hasn't made sense since Danuser got his sweaty palms on her

[Amaterasu65]

Her interesting side was butchered so she could be forced into a villain-gateway for an expansion. Everything thqt Sylvanas did before BFA was true to her character, but from the War of Thorns onwards she got worse and worse.

[Unholyground]

If you read the books & comics she 100% make sense. The true tragedy of her World of Warcraft lore is that none of that is in game and she just comes off as an insane psycho bitch with no character development.

[Candy Cough]

To me they assassinated the character

She was evil yes, but she wasnt a complete monster. She actually cared about the forsaken. And to some degree, the horde. Just look how she is very distressed when Voljin is stabbed

Then they ruin her and just says «She lied all along» lmao

[Sunderella]

Sylvanas has never made sense since she was appointed Warchief. We have the writers to thank for that. She was a perfectly written character right until she jumped off of IC. She should have died there, with his objective in undeath complete. She could have formed some sort of council beforehand to lead the Forsaken and that would have been a nice ending for her.

[Th3Scourge]

No, it doesn't. You can blame Steve "bald-headed fuck" Danuser

[Toppy]

Sylvaanas was always ALWAYS very under developed. What people saw was suffering, a good design, a tragic backstory, and very basic backstabbing and called it "Depth". They used her to imprint their own thoughts and ideas because she was largely empty.

She was called a genius despite having made no particularly clever or devious plans.
She was said to have a depth due to her heritage and current factional standing despite this having never really been touched up: it was just always EXPECTED to be.
It was assumed she was going to be a great warchief. Why? Because she momentarily looked thoughtful in a cutscene.
It was said there was more to her despite this more always being an assumption based on other assumptions.
And with her fall we're still seeing assumptions piled on assumptions. It was said she had all these plans in motion despite her never being shown as one for elaborate plans. There was outrage over her "sudden power" in regards to Bolvar despite next to nothing being said or shown in regards to to either his or her powers.

Its why she's difficult to discuss because people just have so much of her built up in their head canon. They will say X Y and Z and use opinion or interpretation to back this. You get something similar with Tyrande: People saying she's super powerful, super smart, super tactful, etc... despite the canon not really backing this and in some cases going AGAINST it.

[LordVargK]

Definitly b/s /quit.

Sylvanas is undead, a state where she should be cold and emotionless. But she is (now) the absolute opposite, easily provoked and hot-tempered. The writers want her to be "scheming" but in reality she is a lucky opportunist, nothing more. I mean, what where her grand plans?

Gaining immortality through the valkyr? Kinda worked, but she used them up pretty quick.
Get title of warchief? Vol'jin's doing, not hers.
Gaining immortality through a contract with Helya? Foiled by Greymane.
------------------------fuck immortality, let everyone die mode activated------------------------
Start war? Without Sargeras stabbing Azeroth she would not have the means to go to war at all.
Freeing N'zoth by bringing some random dude on Azeroth who was given an old titan artifact (which she could not know of) to Naz'jatar by using some old dagger to help Azshara in her mission? Well, nice that that somehow worked out. But that could not have possibly been her longtime plan.

Also on a side note: If her character should be portrayed as "scheming" which kinda means to have a layed back, well thought out approach to things, why does she scream in every goddamn ingame voiceline she has? Way to ruin a character. I mean, she is a banshee and screaming is kinda their thing, but holy hell it is annoiying to hear her voice.

If you read the books & comics she 100% make sense. The true tragedy of her World of Warcraft lore is that none of that is in game and she just comes off as an insane psycho bitch with no character development.

You mean that the books tell a completely different story than the game?

[Sondrelk]

It's pure nonsense that doesn't make sense even within the expansion it's introduced in terms of informing her decision-making. The writers themselves didn't know that'd be her motivation in the tie-in book meant to hype the expansion it was to be revealed in. Things like evacuating civilians from Undercity instead of letting them die, intervening in Ashenvale to save 'thousands' of soldiers, when letting them die would serve her goals better, being frustrated in her own mind about Malfurion - whom she allowed to survive, when killing him and torching the tree would maximize the body count.

I would imagine that intervening to save your soldiers, does make sense in this narrative. She is preventing souls from going to the Maw in the short-term since she is planning to make the war as costly for both sides as possible, and making sure that the Horde forces are still somewhat able to compete with the Alliance makes sense in that regard.

That being said, it is clear now that the writers have no idea on how to make her come across like a great tactician and master of grand strategy, instead relying on the common cruth of "part of my plan all along", instead of showing her constantly escalating the war by ordering meaningless attacks like the one on Brennadam that does nothing but enrage the Kul Tirans, generally abstaining from any form of aggression other than brute force.

The moment htat the narrative mostly collapses in on itself though is when she abandons the Horde after killing Saurfang.
She is clearly powerful, and someone as supposedly intelligent as her should easily be able to predict an eventual attack on Orgrimmar by both Alliance and Horde rebels. Why not deploy the plague in Orgrimmar after she left, or even just setting fire to it to get the last few deaths before she left.


You are definitely correct though in that Sylvanas' motivations seems to change constantly, the most telling one recently being that her internal thoughts in the BfA book is in direct contradiction to her stated plans, which is a twist that could only possibly work if her characterization is completely pants on head insane.
That being said though, hopefully her story will end with Shadowlands, i cannot possibly see her story continue to function beyond that.

[Aucald]

Sylvanas always made sense, in my opinion. Her motives have changed over time, and I'd say that it is fair to say she's suffered some villain decay insofar as tropes goes, but she was never really a mystery.

[Kyphael]

Sylvanas always made sense, in my opinion. Her motives have changed over time, and I'd say that it is fair to say she's suffered some villain decay insofar as tropes goes, but she was never really a mystery.

Doesn't make sense to the story, though. Her plans have to have been long lain plans, and none of her thoughts in novels ever reflected deceitful intent. I always knew where they would take her character based on a logical progression and her actions at Teldrassil, but the way she's been written, I don't think she knew.

[Super Dickmann]

I would imagine that intervening to save your soldiers, does make sense in this narrative. She is preventing souls from going to the Maw in the short-term since she is planning to make the war as costly for both sides as possible, and making sure that the Horde forces are still somewhat able to compete with the Alliance makes sense in that regard.

Yeah, I'll give you the soldier bit. It also builds up PR. But given that Sylvanas is a brainlet that later loses her shit because an orc told her about hope and dealt a purely cosmetic hit, it's questionable how in-character it is. It's in character for the A Good War version of Sylvanas, who's probably the best Sylvanas we've had this expansion, but between BTS, which is completely off-base with what we see before and later and the game itself where she has the self-control of a toddler and the IQ to match, it's out of place.

The moment htat the narrative mostly collapses in on itself though is when she abandons the Horde after killing Saurfang.
She is clearly powerful, and someone as supposedly intelligent as her should easily be able to predict an eventual attack on Orgrimmar by both Alliance and Horde rebels. Why not deploy the plague in Orgrimmar after she left, or even just setting fire to it to get the last few deaths before she left.

The framing is ridiculous, especially the ones the NPCs who witness it use and that Sylvanas herself later mentions, i.e that she 'no longer needs' the Horde. Bullshit. We're told repeatedly in 8.2.5 that she's on the verge of world conquest and that she has the support of the majority. In what universe is becoming a lone fugitive while your enemies rally against you better than being the ruler of a world power. Not to mention that she most definitely needed the Horde, because she talks about how N'zoth will kill a fuck ton of people amplifying her power. I can understand why she doesn't destroy Orgrimmar since if the Horde and Alliance are too weak they can lose to N'zoth and her plan would be bunk, but surely holding command of the war against N'zoth would both assure the win against him, and allow her to milk as many deaths as possible.

That being said though, hopefully her story will end with Shadowlands, i cannot possibly see her story continue to function beyond that.

I can't see it continuing to function when it hasn't functioned in the first place. Either of the two evil motives - conquering Stormwind or killing as many people as possible or even her prior motives of expanding the Forsaken being driven to desperation when Eyir is gone and she has to switch goals could all have worked if it had been the sole focus. But not all of them simultaneously and definitely not trying them on like hats until a new one catches the writers' fancy. All I'm hoping in regards to Shadowlands for Sylvanas is that they stick with one direction and make her an actual character rather than a plot device used to milk disingenuous pathos from other even worse characters, but given that they promised to 'explain' things like her deal with the Jailor in EoN or why she 'really' wanted to catch Eyir despite both being objects of existing explanations either from her own mind or from an omniscient perspective I'm not gonna hold out hope.

[Aucald]

Doesn't make sense to the story, though. Her plans have to have been long lain plans, and none of her thoughts in novels ever reflected deceitful intent. I always knew where they would take her character based on a logical progression and her actions at Teldrassil, but the way she's been written, I don't think she knew.

None of her thoughts in the novels ever really addressed her long-term plans, either; and they all ring true despite the new information we're privy to (e.g. in order to protect herself and her interests i.e. the Jailer she still needed the Forsaken still serve as an effective shield). Nothing Sylvanas has done since Legion and in BfA strike me as anything she wouldn't otherwise do.