If BFA had been a N'zoth/South Seas xpac with no faction war...

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

This expac suffered from being unfocused and trying to do too many things, so imagine it had just been the South Seas/Azshara/N'zoth xpac everyone was expecting. What plot hook would you have used to get us to Kul Tiras and Zandalar? In the current story we go there to recruit them and their navies for the war. So if there were no war, what are some reasons we might go there?

Honestly that would have been so much better. if they needed the Sylvanas set up for Shadowlands, they could have easily have her working from the shadows as Aszhara's ally; pretty much similar to retail, but with just.. no faction war, yeah.

It would have been much better, but I guess someone in the dev team had an ostensible hardon for a MoP 2.0, and hamfisted it into the story no matter how.

Which on the other hand, the faction war itself could have ben a good expansion on its own if it wasn't just a distraction created by Sylvanas. Like IMO they wasted a good faction war.

It would've been the exact same thing, just switch faction war for something else that people could hate and blame their seemingly perpetual lack of enjoyment on.

The issues of BfA come down to gameplay designs. There's been some worthwhile stories. If I had to pick pet peeves, Nazjatar and Ny'alotha being done away as they have been I dislike far more than the Faction War in BfA.

Onward to Shadowlands, I hope they'll show us new things, like in MoP (which was hated on sooo much whilst current, but not by me).

The problem is that BfA has BOTH design and narrative issues. If either had been done better overall, there would be a lot people looking on it more kindly. But it just isn't an issue of player unhappiness, the problems exist. "Yeah the gameplay had issues but the story was solid" or "Gameplay was good, shame the story was unfocused" would have been just a lot better post mortem.

[Mehrunes]

On one hand it would probably be more cohesive. On the other hand it would still have likely ended with the same exact cinematic because if there's one thing Blizzard can't do for sure when it comes to writing (in actuality there's many more, but let's pretend here) it's writing a satisfying ending that makes sense. This is the company that already gave us horseshit like "There must always be a Lich King" (which is going to be undermined even further in Shadowlands pre-release event) and "Draenor is free). So if what you're really looking for here is a satisfying ending to the N'Zoth saga what you should be asking for is a different company to make the expansion.

Blizzard would never openly depict the Alliance as aggressors, even if justified (at least from their own PoV). Genn attacked another head of state during a ceasefire while having no idea of what she was actually doing, and everything was simply... forgotten. The Alliance, who now KNEW that Sylvanas was doing some funky stuff, just kind of... let her alone. Nothing makes sense.

They actually do that all the time. It's just they then brush it under the carpet each and every time as if they realized what they actually wrote and the repercussions of that only later on.

[Clbull]

This expac suffered from being unfocused and trying to do too many things, so imagine it had just been the South Seas/Azshara/N'zoth xpac everyone was expecting. What plot hook would you have used to get us to Kul Tiras and Zandalar? In the current story we go there to recruit them and their navies for the war. So if there were no war, what are some reasons we might go there?

A reason could be created with ease. Azshara's naga could mount a full scale invasion of Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms, having been the first major power to heavily utilise Azerite.

Both the Alliance and Horde could receive distress calls from Kul Tiras and Zandalar respectively then go to help out. This resulting in us recruiting them into the respective factions.

The War Campaign is instead a side-conflict between the Horde and Alliance. The Undercity and Teldrassil don't fall, but instead Warfronts are PvP themed open world conflicts similar to Wintergrasp and Tol Barad where both factions fight for control of a central objective.

The raids available remain largely the same, however, the Battle of Dazar'alor is instead split into a two-part raid where you defend Boralus as the Alliance and Dazar'alor as the Horde. King Rastakhan and Katherine Proudmoore are killed by Azshara's lieutenants. Talanji and Jaina take over as leaders and push for a major offensive against the Naga.

[Beloren]

True, but I think we'd still follow a progression of South Seas > Nazjatar > Ny'alotha (which would be a zone unto itself). Maybe the main Nazjatar zone is the initial max level zone like Suramar, but then more Nazjatar zones get opened up.

The fact that South Seas>Nazjatar>Ny'alotha is already a complete three-act structure is even more reason not to try and cram in a faction war story.

Agreed. It is the South Seas expansion repackaged differently, , by making the faction war the focus, it's easy to forget it was the south seas.

But yeh, the progression would have been the same. Just the landmasses different.

[Soikona]

It would've been the exact same thing, just switch faction war for something else that people could hate and blame their seemingly perpetual lack of enjoyment on.

The issues of BfA come down to gameplay designs. There's been some worthwhile stories. If I had to pick pet peeves, Nazjatar and Ny'alotha being done away as they have been I dislike far more than the Faction War in BfA.

Onward to Shadowlands, I hope they'll show us new things, like in MoP (which was hated on sooo much whilst current, but not by me).

It came down to story more than gameplay for me. Sure gameplay was shit, but the story didn’t motivate me to play (like other expansions).

[Aeula]

We go there to get a fleet to help battle the Old Gods at sea or some bullshit.

It doesn't really matter, the only thing that would've changed is that the factions wouldn't have been butchered to the extent that they were.

[Newname1234567890]

Have 8.2 as the basis for the main leveling Continent but larger with more variation clearly. Have the intro stealing the tidestone and get it form the main narrative arc.

Have Zandarar and Kul Tiras be extra zones you could still even use the fleet reasoning.

[Syegfryed]

BFa failed to hard because they overestimate the faction war thing and shot themselves in the foot making the faction war shit, because it worked on mop

fucking expansion is basically the same core of elements of before, and they even acknowledge that, but said "there is things who didn't finish, we felt we had to revise that" well fuck you, we didn't, vol'jin died for this shit and muh faction of horde being bad guys and alliance being the passive noobs, there was no faction pride and they had to run to the old gods threat and also spoiled n'zoth. who barely had a patch for him.

if the expansion was just about n'zoth and ny'alotha we could have travel to zandalar and kul'tiras to get help against these threat, help then in between and forge an alliance, faction skirmishes and small faction war plots could have happen normally without being the focus, we could kick sylvanus and her bootlikers, Vol'jin didn't had to died, since he could be the one doing the link to zandalar, and after an expansion of old gods threats dealing with their machinations and possible tentative of resurrection we could ultimately face n'zoth in the end with a proper final

and since we kicked sylvanus, she would com back for shadowlands

[Lupinemancer]

South Seas?
N'zoth got nothing to do with Pandara.

[Deferionus]

Sure: Pirates are attacking shipping lanes between Kalimdore and Eastern Kingdoms so both the Horde and Alliance go there to stop the pirates from attacking their trade. Once we get there we find that the pirates are attacking our trade routes because the Naga have come out of the sea and are forcing the pirates to ramp up their attacks in order to give the Naga supplies to fuel their war machine. The goal of the Naga war machine is to attack the Alliance and Horde and bring back N'zoth. During the course of this the Alliance and Horde become friends with their respective new races who are also defending themselves against these factions. Ally and Horde provide the land forces and Kul'Tiras and Zalandalar provides the naval strength.

You could have had your island expeditions and instead of war fronts you could have had naval battles. Could have had some Alliance vs Horde fighting over trade rights / shipping lanes, but not been a focal point.

[RangerDaz]

They wanted to hammer Sylvanas evil plan into the expansion so much that this ended harming the story.

If we removed Sylvanas from the entire BfA, this expansion story would have been awesome (still the connection between NZoth and Azeroth dying isn't really told as well).

They ruined a great character and an expansion for a childish and nonsense story.


Btw, I still don't get what NZoth has to do with saving Azeroth from dying from bleeding due to a big injury from Sargeras' giant sword?

They just lost focus on what to write in this entire expansion.

[Dakhath]

I know garrisons and what not aren't very popular, but I always thought that it would be great if we had a ship that functioned as a pseudo-garrison for a south seas expansion. Treasure maps that could have tied to island expeditions and such.

[Deferionus]

Everyone was "expecting" a "South Seas/Azshara/N'zoth" - where did you get that one from? Especially after the end of Legion, something would have had to be done with the wound in Silithus etc.

So there would likely still be Azerite and the HoA. And thus a mechanic that people here call (once again) "the worst shit ever". You'd still have essences and a grind and complaints about it not being accountwide. Also complaints in week 1 how it "kills alt and needs catchup"

Then let me beg the question: What would have been in the South Seas? I bet factions. And different for Alliance and Horde. We might all quest in the ame zones, but that never stopped ppl from complaining about "uninspired quests" "boring levelling" "pathfinder is a shit system" etc

So...yeah....in essence I expect the same threads here, how it is a mess - and already it all points to be the same threads how SL will be a mess.

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...and we'd have the threads how lame and predictable it is and even if there is no similarities, ppl call it the "Pirates of the Caribbean" expansion. Let's forget that ppl liked the film back then, but it is now a shit film, Blizzard steals once again etc etc.

And indeed...I.E could still be there, warfronts against pirates and the mission table also has a naval table, so we could ridicule Blizzard for being so creatively bankrupt, they rip off WoD

You're right, but people are going to rip on the story direction regardless of how it develops, just like you would have another group of playes who would love the piracy and naval components.

The only absolutely terrible expansion Blizzard has released was WoD, and it had its good parts. The only reason I say terrible is because Blizzard never released all of the content for it and gave up. BFA has real content. I also think BFA would have been much better received if Mechagon or Nazjatar was released in the .0 patch as the Suramar equivalent.

[Florena]

I'm a bit torn.

The faction war story I feel was just a worse version of MOP. Repetitive and very little for me to actually enjoy. So on that front, focusing on Azshara and N'zoth from the get go would be good. In the grand scheme of things I fee the only thing the faction war accomplished was setting up Sylvanas for a baddie in Shadowlands.

On the other hand, I actually really liked the internal Kul'tiras stuff even if everything before and after it with the faction war I didn't care for.

All in all though I think I would have liked a seas expansion more than focusing just on zandalar/kul'tiras and the faction war early on.

[Khaza-R]

I think BfA should been a light world revamp which the primary theme was the faction war and Sylvanas 4d chess game. Then Shadowlands would seem like a more natural succession.

Kul Tiras, Zandalar, Nazjatar and N’zoth should of been there own separate expansion

[allawyn]

It would have been much better, but I guess someone in the dev team had an ostensible hardon for a MoP 2.0, and hamfisted it into the story no matter how.

Yeah. They really wanted the "resolve" the issue of who the Horde really was (by making it clear they were the villians of WOW). They would have dropped the Old Gods before Garrosh 2.0.

While the source is iffy, there is a claim that the amount of Olds Gods we got was as a replacement for faction war story they dropped when the found out just how much players hated it.

[Soon-TM]

[a] faction war story they dropped when the found out just how much players hated it.

The main issue with these faction wars stories is that they're bound to piss off at least half the playerbase. But BfA's Morally Grey™ story is so bad that it has managed to piss off both Hordies and Allies (except the handful of Anduin shills, I guess) - which is quite an achievement in its own right.

Btw, it's amazing to see so many HD cinematics of Sadfang & co., and none for N'Zoth.

[Kyphael]

Azshara causes a major tidal wave that nearly wipes out Kul'tiras as collateral while raising Nazjatar to the surface. Katherine reaches out to Jaina and Anduin for help. Priscilla Ashvane was still in cahoots with Azshara for power. Nice, simple and straight forward. Jaina's conflict with her mother still could have taken place, as Katherine would have been directly dealing with Stormwind while shunning Jaina who still had to prove herself to her mother just as it happened.

Zandalar? Same as above, Zandalar is an island that could have also been affected by Azshara's power/tidal waves. They reach out to Horde, Azshara would had been the one to kidnap Talanji and the Horde would have helped her escape.

The Alliance/Horde conflict works as a sub-plot like in Mists of Pandaria. It still could have here. The problem was making it the main plot while Azshara and N'zoth were relegated to sub-plots. Blizzard had it reversed and it all felt so disjointed.

[Varolyn]

The story involving Azshara/Old Gods likely would have stayed the same. Many of the plot points in KT and Zandalaar probably would have stayed the same too, as there isn't that much involving the faction while questing. The horde Stormsong invasion would have been a quilboar invasion instead. Nazjatar would have been like the broken shore. Ny'alotha is likely a full fledged zone. But the N'zoth probably dies in the same way.

Even though Sylvanas has all the media and marketing surrounding her, she really didn't play that big of a role in the expansion. After the Battle of Lordearon, she barely even shows up gameplay wise, and most of her remaining dialogue comes from recruiting allied races until she bolts out of org.

[Deferionus]

Come to think of it (and I might be misremembering) - WoD actually had a very straight story. No diversions: Alternate Universe - kill all the Orc clan leaders / battle the different clans.

On the other hand, the other x-pacs are "all over the place" which seems to be a problem for ppl now...but was it in older x-pacs?

TBC starting with the promise of fighting Illidan and then it just buggers off do do some Hellfire Demons, some Naga, some Space tech
WotLK picking up some old Naxx, then buggers off to do titans and an old god and finally gets around to the promise of the title.
Cata - honestly...I don't remember that mess...just the four disjointed zones and we need dungeons and raids in all of them
MoP - I give that a pass. Didn't see SoO coming but it works with the Sha stuff for me and the whole Mogul / Mantis / Panda relations never was a problem for me

...and Legion dicked around for the longest time in several zones and some Emerald dream diversion etc when everyone was expecting full on mayhem to finally have this very small and disappointing reveal of what Argus is.

I am sure (and I welcome) people telling me how all these x-pacs had great and coherent story arcs....in which case I see y'all in 2 years when ppl will tell us how BfA actually was great and Shadowlands now is the worst ever

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While I think you have a point - I wonder if that would have ever worked - because I suddenly imagine all of this Sylvanas / faction war just happening in Azeroth...in zones we know. People already have a fit that Old God assaults are in old zones...can you imagine the hysteria of an x-pac all in old zones?

That said....no matter how and if it would work - but yeah...three patches of Nerubian Empire, Black Empire, Old god city...I think I would have loved that

Argus was hella disappointing. If I was in control of the decision making I would have made the final patch of Legion to something akin to finding a way to Argus by raiding a Legion ship, then the prepatch for 9.0 being making a portal to Argus, and then have an entire expansion be Argus itself. I would have also carried the artifact weapons forward into another expansion, but that is probably a very controversial idea. I base it off of thinking classes felt really good towards the end of Legion and artifacts were a big part of that.

Far as other expansions:

BC: Way all over the place.
WoTLK: Overall was a coherent story, exception being Ulduar. Quests had Lich King references all over the place. Naxx and ToC were lead ups to ICC. You did have side story of Yogg'Saron and the mage war against Malygos.
Cataclysm: World was damaged by a rampaging dragon. A lot of raids were something like "elements are upset world is in chaos." Twilight hammer was supporting death wing. Overall was coherent if you followed the story, but you had to pay attention to connect everything.

MOP and WoD I agree.

Also, Xavius, who made the Emerald Nightmare, was a demon and part of the Legion. We essentially killed a powerful demon inside the realm he made / corrupted.

I guess all and all TBC was the most disjointed expac along with the original WoW not having an over arching story.