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  1. #1561
    Stood in the Fire VMSmith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otaka View Post
    You were answered already but i wanted to too.
    Thank you for the thoughtful explanation. Given more context, it does make more sense.

  2. #1562
    Quote Originally Posted by Koriani View Post
    Before I get distracted by whatever the next 20 pages of this thread are going to say - or pick apart - to the point that I don't even want to post anymore; I DID want to say -

    Loved the last two episodes. Not saying they were perfect - but LOVED some of what we did get; and that's all I care about.

    LOVED watching Vadar reach-out and smack-down an effing launching SHIP mid-launch and then rip its hull open. Him snatching his hand out and 'grabbing the ship' was awesome and epic and everything I love about Sith using the Force =D. Even if it was a brilliant decoy. Awesome scene.

    LOVED the final showdown fight between Vadar and Obiwan. Even without 'big tension' (knowing no one's dying) I still felt the tension of just finding out how they were going to have the fight ultimately finish, and stay in line with Canon and their future 'actual real' duel to the death. I loved watching the back and forth of the sabers - choreography was awesome. Loved Obiwan getting his force-strength back and launching it at Vadar. Loved the exchange at the end with Vadar's helmet sliced open.

    And of course <3 to Master Qui-Gon's appearance.

    I also really appreciated them taking the two seconds to explain why Vadar didn't spend the next 8 years going after Obi-wan, now that Vadar had been bested (again) and Obi-wan was still alive. Rather than just leaving it to "Obi-Wan doesn't use powers for 8 years so no one can find him." (esp. as they left it implying he'd be using powers training with Qui-Gon Force Ghost)
    We already knew this, Kenobi was supposed to have been training the whole time. Communing with Force Ghosts is the training Yoda said he had for him at the end of RoTS. The was actually a scene in the novelization where Qui Gon spoke with Yoda. Think there was a deleted scene as well.

  3. #1563
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Man I really want Hayden to get a Vader series after this.

    Much like Boba Fett the last two episodes will carry this mini series, but holy shit were they good. I had to rewind and watch back a couple of moments because I was taken out of it the first time that I missed what followed up.

    Always good to see Ian and Liam too.


    Sports and Fitness mod, Brit with weird sleeping hours.
    Has good taste in ale, bad taste in D&D choices.

  4. #1564
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    I literally used the scale analogy. Which is the opposite to your statement. I am not a fan of this level of logic.
    No, you literally used baseless conspiracy theories. Mando is good therefore Kennedy must have had limited influence on it. Which is a horseshit argument. You have no proof that’s it’s true to begin with and she’s still the boss anyways.

    She’s in charge. She’s had successes and she’s had failures. But the latter haven’t really hurt the bottom line. Which is why she’s still in charge.

  5. #1565
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    No, you literally used baseless conspiracy theories. Mando is good therefore Kennedy must have had limited influence on it.
    Filoni and Favro were given exclusive control over Mando. There were even rumors of them deposing KK. That's like History by now, not MY argument. Just a fact. They were given Carte Blanche - and they delivered. Then KK touched it and we got Boba (Kenobi show, Ahsoka show <- the one I worry about now, Andor show - and now incoming Reva show, Leia show - money money money must be funny)
    Last edited by Elim Garak; 2022-06-23 at 09:02 PM.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2022 - that's two-zero-two-two, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of double-masked tripple-jabbed sissies who stand with Ukraine.

  6. #1566
    I'd just rather Disney left all of the remaining original and prequel trilogy characters alone at this stage, so I can stop seeing them being used as a cash cow and being butchered and soiled by piss-poor writing. It's time for them to move on and start creating entirely original material outside of the already explored timelines from the movies, TV and games.
    "yOu aRe wRoNg" - Darththeo

  7. #1567
    Quote Originally Posted by Jotaux View Post
    So am I the only one that liked the series?
    Pretty poor start but was pretty good at the end.

  8. #1568
    Quote Originally Posted by Relikk View Post
    I'd just rather Disney left all of the remaining original and prequel trilogy characters alone at this stage, so I can stop seeing them being used as a cash cow and being butchered and soiled by piss-poor writing. It's time for them to move on and start creating entirely original material outside of the already explored timelines from the movies, TV and games.
    While I agree in principle, I think there's a reason they keep recurring the familiar - when they tried to get original they got burned. The sequel trilogy was ass.

    What I'm surprised by is that they're not recycling some of the more popular old stuff. Making movies/a series about Revan, for example, seemed to me like an easy winner. I guess they're giving us Thrawn at least, so that's one fan favorite off the docket.


    I suppose they're incredibly reluctant to leave the shadow of Skywalker behind and dip into things like the Old Republic, because it doesn't tie into the original movies super directly. Or something, I don't know. Maybe it's just because it's not set on Tatooine, and we all know you apparently can't make a new SW series if it's not set on Tatooine.

  9. #1569
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Filoni and Favro were given exclusive control over Mando. There were even rumors of them deposing KK. That's like History by now, not MY argument. Just a fact. They were given Carte Blanche - and they delivered. Then KK touched it and we got Boba (Kenobi show, Ahsoka show <- the one I worry about now, Andor show - and now incoming Reva show, Leia show - money money money must be funny)
    They don’t have exclusive control over Mando. The show is owned by LucasFilms and Disney. F&F are not taking over for KK. They are creatives. KK is business side. If they were to take over LucasFilms that would mean they would not be using their full creative energies to continue to make Mando. They would spend time managing the business side of making movies and television.

    Your arguments hinge on rumours. Alternatively, you could just acknowledge the KK has done some good work for Star Wars but evidently manning your little hate cog is more important to you.

  10. #1570
    I am Murloc! Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Filoni and Favro were given exclusive control over Mando. There were even rumors of them deposing KK. That's like History by now, not MY argument. Just a fact. They were given Carte Blanche - and they delivered. Then KK touched it and we got Boba (Kenobi show, Ahsoka show <- the one I worry about now, Andor show - and now incoming Reva show, Leia show - money money money must be funny)
    I hate to tell you, Elim. But, they don't have exclusive control. They have creative control to a limit. Kathleen Kennedy is listed as an executive producer for Mandalorian, if she was not happy with their work, it would be shut down because she is in control of Lucasfilm.

    And of course when Mando took off more shows were coming. The Mandalorian was a test to see if there was a market for live action Star Wars television series. And clearly there was.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    While I agree in principle, I think there's a reason they keep recurring the familiar - when they tried to get original they got burned. The sequel trilogy was ass.

    What I'm surprised by is that they're not recycling some of the more popular old stuff. Making movies/a series about Revan, for example, seemed to me like an easy winner. I guess they're giving us Thrawn at least, so that's one fan favorite off the docket.


    I suppose they're incredibly reluctant to leave the shadow of Skywalker behind and dip into things like the Old Republic, because it doesn't tie into the original movies super directly. Or something, I don't know. Maybe it's just because it's not set on Tatooine, and we all know you apparently can't make a new SW series if it's not set on Tatooine.
    The sequel trilogy started as a carbon copy of the original, went "subvert expectations" without giving a decent story, to damage control.
    There was more than just trying something new that failed the sequel trilogy.

    And the High Republic era is hit or miss right now.

    Even the Old EU tended to hang around the OT hard. And the PT when it came out. There were things like the Old Republic, but most of Star Wars EU was pretty tied to the movies.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  11. #1571
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Filoni and Favro were given exclusive control over Mando. There were even rumors of them deposing KK. That's like History by now, not MY argument. Just a fact. They were given Carte Blanche - and they delivered. Then KK touched it and we got Boba (Kenobi show, Ahsoka show <- the one I worry about now, Andor show - and now incoming Reva show, Leia show - money money money must be funny)
    Does it ever get tiring being wrong about literally everything regarding Star Wars?

  12. #1572
    yeesh what a bad ending with so many mind boggling decisions: the ship captain that couldn't repair his ship till Kenobi was going to leave then suddenly he can fix it he just needs a little bit of time, the laughable chase scene where the star destroyer forgot it has tie fighters, the Vader vs Kenobi fight being sad with the Leia power up cause fuck Luke, the laughable Reva ambush where both are on the same side shooting at a sith, Reva bringing Lukes seemingly dead body and dropping it and no one doing anything to her, Kenobi leaving Luke again to tell Leia how amazing and strong and smart and awesome and did I say amazing? Ugh least now I can say anything Disney produced is garbage to avoid, because 90% it will be true.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  13. #1573
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Dang we've come full circle and started with the KK slander again. You know the show is good when people start trying to make you feel bad about liking it. In a couple more projects they are going to be saying "this project is trash, Kenobi was the last good thing put out because KK had nothing to do with it".

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  14. #1574
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    While I agree in principle, I think there's a reason they keep recurring the familiar - when they tried to get original they got burned. The sequel trilogy was ass.

    What I'm surprised by is that they're not recycling some of the more popular old stuff. Making movies/a series about Revan, for example, seemed to me like an easy winner. I guess they're giving us Thrawn at least, so that's one fan favorite off the docket.


    I suppose they're incredibly reluctant to leave the shadow of Skywalker behind and dip into things like the Old Republic, because it doesn't tie into the original movies super directly. Or something, I don't know. Maybe it's just because it's not set on Tatooine, and we all know you apparently can't make a new SW series if it's not set on Tatooine.
    The current method that Disney (and quite a few other companies, like Amazon and Paramount) do is to push their characters and narratives in stuff that people recognize and like to hide it. Simply put, they use the IP and things that people like as vehicles to push the stuff people don't like. They'll advertise it as one thing that people are looking forward to, then the bait-and-switch happens when the content gets released. It's so predictable to the point where what basically happened in the Kenobi series was predicted long before the series was released in terms of the bait-and-switch we got.

    When you look at the Kenobi show, very little of the show is about Kenobi and his actions. For almost the entirety of the show, Kenobi is a passive character who gets lead around by everyone else (basically, he has no agency in his own show). Instead, the characters who are being pushed and actually doing stuff are mainly Reva and Leia... and they're the weakest characters in the show in terms of writing (to be fair, the bar is pretty low for everyone in this show). The writing is all about pushing a narrative that doesn't make sense but tries to make Reva and Leia the real focus of the show, and the world has to bend so much to have that happen. In order to distract people, they'll jingle the keys every now and then with nostalgia to distract people from the abysmal show. The end result is that the franchise as a whole is worse off in the end with a plot that makes no sense and has so many holes and logical inconsistencies that it's hard not to go 5 minutes into an episode without getting distracted by silly/dumb things.

    Now why would they do this? Because these companies have little faith in their products and ideas, and it shows through their actions. Instead of using the Kenobi show to give us a Reva story and a Leia story, those could've been done as independent projects... but they don't. Instead of releasing the trailers and letting them speak for themselves, the companies go on the offensive and attack viewers before the shows are even out to blame them for not liking the show. These companies show weakness through their actions because they know their content isn't good or won't be well received, and instead of giving what people will actually want and enjoy en masse, these companies would rather push their terrible content and blame everyone but themselves for their issues. But ultimately they know that there will be people who will consume the content no matter how bad it is, which is why this low-effort model is used... because it's way easier to put in the bare minimum effort when you know you'll still make some returns.

    I find it quite ironic that we've gone from actually distrusting the establishment (no matter their stance) and corporations back in my younger days to where everyone seems to say they're against such entities but will gobble up every piece of trash said entities give them while praising them. Seems like it's more trendy to appear to be 'against the system' or outraged than actually have a principled stance or reason on why you distrust authorities and power centers. I feel like we're in the age of lip service only, and we'll keep getting terrible content from companies like Disney until people stop just consuming whatever scraps are given to them and praising it as amazing. You can like something that's terrible, even if it is the Kenobi series, but that doesn't excuse you from not demanding better and/or deluding yourself into thinking it's actually good.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  15. #1575
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    I find it quite ironic that we've gone from actually distrusting the establishment (no matter their stance) and corporations back in my younger days to where everyone seems to say they're against such entities but will gobble up every piece of trash said entities give them while praising them. Seems like it's more trendy to appear to be 'against the system' or outraged than actually have a principled stance or reason on why you distrust authorities and power centers. I feel like we're in the age of lip service only, and we'll keep getting terrible content from companies like Disney until people stop just consuming whatever scraps are given to them and praising it as amazing. You can like something that's terrible, even if it is the Kenobi series, but that doesn't excuse you from not demanding better and/or deluding yourself into thinking it's actually good.
    Spare us this "woke capitalism is destroying everything" horseshit. Reactionaries don't care about dismantling the system of cultural commodification - on the contrary, they viscerally hate the people who think that'd be a good idea - they only care about their own favorite products getting all the shelf space at the culture store.

  16. #1576
    I am Murloc! Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Dang we've come full circle and started with the KK slander again. You know the show is good when people start trying to make you feel bad about liking it. In a couple more projects they are going to be saying "this project is trash, Kenobi was the last good thing put out because KK had nothing to do with it".
    Given that there are Kennedy haters still complain "Disney never should have hired her!" I don't expect them to change at any point. It is a constant shifting of what is hated. Honestly there are people who say they hate Star Wars products so much and yet they are always the first to watch the new Star Wars show.

    (If anyone is unaware, Kathleen Kennedy is George Lucas' choice to run Lucasfilm, she was promoted by HIM into her position shortly before Disney bought Lucasfilm. She would with Lucas for a long time. Lucas trusts her.)
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  17. #1577
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Given that there are Kennedy haters still complain "Disney never should have hired her!" I don't expect them to change at any point. It is a constant shifting of what is hated. Honestly there are people who say they hate Star Wars products so much and yet they are always the first to watch the new Star Wars show.

    (If anyone is unaware, Kathleen Kennedy is George Lucas' choice to run Lucasfilm, she was promoted by HIM into her position shortly before Disney bought Lucasfilm. She would with Lucas for a long time. Lucas trusts her.)
    It’s almost like some are just looking to blame any women for their intense dislike of Star Wars instead of just finding something else to watch.

  18. #1578
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    Instead of releasing the trailers and letting them speak for themselves, the companies go on the offensive and attack viewers before the shows are even out to blame them for not liking the show. These companies show weakness through their actions because they know their content isn't good or won't be well received, and instead of giving what people will actually want and enjoy en masse, these companies would rather push their terrible content and blame everyone but themselves for their issues.
    That's just silly hyperbole and propagandist rhetoric.

    No company would operate like that, let alone one that makes tens of billions and that's been around for a century.

    Does that mean everything they do makes sense and is optimal? Of course not. They make mistakes all the time, but hindsight is 20/20. The entertainment industry is notorious for being difficult to predict, even with hundreds of people behind the market and audience research as no doubt is the case here.

    Why do they do things you object to? Ostensibly because they think enough OTHER people want to see it. Is THAT always right? No. Of course not. But that's a very different narrative than "they know their stuff sucks, they know people hate it, but they're somehow evil and purposely don't give people what they want".

    What that kind of statement REALLY is, is nothing more than an "anti-woke" dog whistle. You're effectively intimating that there's some kind of conspiracy at work with Disney, where somehow a multi-billion-dollar corporation wants to push a political agenda that they KNOW actively hurts their bottom line because... actually, I have no idea what the reasons could be, or what people come up with as possible reasons. Probably something involving pizza and child pornography.

    That's ludicrous on every level, makes no sense either politically OR economically, and is backed by nothing except people's wild imagination, misinformed willful ignorance, and a vague general sense of dissatisfaction.

    What's more likely the ACTUAL case here is the standard Hollywood shenanigans of people having an inflated sense of self-importance, and a mistaken evaluation of their own ability to recognize quality. Partly that's because the hierarchical command structures of the companies behind those products encourage promotion of people with personalities particularly susceptible to such biases, and partly it's because Hollywood has always cultivated a cultural scene of aloof egomaniacs whose primary residence is in exactly the wrong section of the Dunning-Kruger curve. And of course this has created a feedback loop over the years where audiences have become acclimatized to bad writing, and because they let it slide it causes more bad writing in an entire spiral of mainstream quality decline.

    There's exceptions. Some people are genuinely talented AND able to navigate corporate structure enough to bring that talent to bear. That's how we get stuff like The Mandalorian. And other things are not ALL bad, and have some great moments in them, too; we need to do better as audiences to recognize, reward, and even DEMAND those things over the run-off-the-mill drivel we've become far too complacent with.

    In any event, there isn't some bizarre leftist conspiracy at work. Only the results of decades of corporate machinery subverting quality in the name of profit, and our complacency with the results that feeds into the spiral.

  19. #1579
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    When you look at the Kenobi show, very little of the show is about Kenobi and his actions. For almost the entirety of the show, Kenobi is a passive character who gets lead around by everyone else (basically, he has no agency in his own show).
    And what would a Kenobi show where he has full agency look like?

    Oh right him working as a butcher by day, hiding in a cave by night, occasionally checking in on Luke. For 20 years. Which is a choice he made.

    I guess they could make a sitcom about the zany hi-jinks of a bunch of butchers toiling in the hot suns of Tatooine. Kenobi wouldn't be doing too many hi-jinks but he could occasionally drop some of pearl of wisdom. Not too much wisdom or the Inquisition would come calling.
    Last edited by Ivanstone; 2022-06-24 at 12:32 AM.

  20. #1580
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    What that kind of statement REALLY is, is nothing more than an "anti-woke" dog whistle. You're effectively intimating that there's some kind of conspiracy at work with Disney, where somehow a multi-billion-dollar corporation wants to push a political agenda that they KNOW actively hurts their bottom line because... actually, I have no idea what the reasons could be, or what people come up with as possible reasons. Probably something involving pizza and child pornography.
    These Geniuses: "Boo hoo, why does the Disney Corporation keep producing and marketing content with an eye toward satisfying the aesthetic tastes of urban cosmopolitans? That's Marxism!"

    The Reality: They do this because those are the ideological conditions under which more people with more disposable income - a.k.a. customers - actually live, and so placating their tastes is more conducive to maximizing ROI. And its not new. The culture industry has been doing this since the early 70s with the so-called "Rural Purge"; when the major TV broadcasters canceled shows like Hee Haw and Green Acres and replaced them with shows like Good Times and the Mary Tyler Moore Show.

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