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  1. #1741
    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    Can you quote where I said any word with "ist" in it? freudian slip?
    Oh yes, because you definitely weren't saying it. Sure, everyone here is 8 years old and can't see what you're doing, you got us.

  2. #1742
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    No we're not. We're talking about specific, exclusionary language used in reference to a work/setting/whatever you want to call it.

    Again, what you you think of a, "The Force is male" shirt. You seem to want to keep dodging that.
    If men were treated the same as females throughout history I would think the same.
    I have a fan. Seems he was permabanned.
    Yo, don't mind my "street talk"

  3. #1743
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Just once, I'd like to have a Star Wars thread where the main topic WASN'T complaining that there's girls in Star Wars now.


  4. #1744
    I am Murloc! Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    No we're not. We're talking about specific, exclusionary language used in reference to a work/setting/whatever you want to call it.

    Again, what you you think of a, "The Force is male" shirt. You seem to want to keep dodging that.
    The same as I think about The Force is Female, which is literally nothing because the Light Side of the Force has canonly been depicted as Female (Dark Side Male).
    I do not see an exclusionary language in The Force is Female. I can only see if you assume such language is by definition exclusionary.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
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  5. #1745
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Just once, I'd like to have a Star Wars thread where the main topic WASN'T complaining that there's girls in Star Wars now.
    No one did that. Again, nice try. +social credits for you I guess.

  6. #1746
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    No one did that. Again, nice try. +social credits for you I guess.
    You are. People complaining about Moses Ingram's character are. See also complaints about Rey, complaints about Rose, any time someone brings up Kathleen Kennedy, etc.


  7. #1747
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    The same as I think about The Force is Female, which is literally nothing because the Light Side of the Force has canonly been depicted as Female (Dark Side Male).
    I do not see an exclusionary language in The Force is Female. I can only see if you assume such language is by definition exclusionary.
    So that shirt would be fine with you?

    Honestly, I'd respect the consistency, or at least the admission of a lack thereof. Either one would be fine. It's this weird, "No, one is good and the other bad because something voting rights and stuff." that's super weird to me.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You are. People complaining about Moses Ingram's character are. See also complaints about Rey, complaints about Rose, any time someone brings up Kathleen Kennedy, etc.
    So if I don't complain about any of that but I think a shirt is stupid, I'm complaining about girls existing?

    I mean, I expect that kind of weird logic out of you - and I expect you to retreat from it later when you decide that it didn't make sense after all - but hey.

  8. #1748
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    So that shirt would be fine with you?

    Honestly, I'd respect the consistency, or at least the admission of a lack thereof. Either one would be fine. It's this weird, "No, one is good and the other bad because something voting rights and stuff." that's super weird to me.
    My bad. Fuck those people. They shouldn't have any rights? We shouldn't care if they are treated worse or not. As long as this movie is what I want who gives a shit.


    Is that better?
    I have a fan. Seems he was permabanned.
    Yo, don't mind my "street talk"

  9. #1749
    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    My bad. Fuck those people. They shouldn't have any rights? We shouldn't care if they are treated worse or not. As long as this movie is what I want who gives a shit.

    Is that better?
    Oh, you got me again, clearly I don't want people to have rights? I said that? Must have forgot.

    I mean, you guys can't even pretend like you're discussing it. It's just straight to implying I hate this or that or want to oppress this person or that person. It's like no one can discuss anything, the moment you don't toe the line just so it's straight to the gulag.

  10. #1750
    I am Murloc! Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    So that shirt would be fine with you?

    Honestly, I'd respect the consistency, or at least the admission of a lack thereof. Either one would be fine. It's this weird, "No, one is good and the other bad because something voting rights and stuff." that's super weird to me.
    Again, I feel nothing because there is no exclusionary language in the shirt. It is only exclusionary if you assume such language is.

    If you could explain how such language is "exclusionary" you may have a point, but frankly I can't see you getting there without circular reasoning or begging the question.

    To me the Force is Female is akin to saying Nature is Female or Life is Female or the Universe is Female. I am a guy, I do not feel excluded by those kinds of phrases.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  11. #1751
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    Oh, you got me again, clearly I don't want people to have rights? I said that? Must have forgot.

    I mean, you guys can't even pretend like you're discussing it. It's just straight to implying I hate this or that or want to oppress this person or that person. It's like no one can discuss anything, the moment you don't toe the line just so it's straight to the gulag.
    People telling you you're being kinda misogynist over nothing is not you being sent to a gulag. It's minor criticism. That's it. You're complaining because people are critical of the views you're expressing. That's it.


  12. #1752
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Again, I feel nothing because there is no exclusionary language in the shirt. It is only exclusionary if you assume such language is.

    If you could explain how such language is "exclusionary" you may have a point, but frankly I can't see you getting there without circular reasoning or begging the question.

    To me the Force is Female is akin to saying Nature is Female or Life is Female or the Universe is Female. I am a guy, I do not feel excluded by those kinds of phrases.
    Ok, that's fine. Just as long as the reverse would be true, doesn't matter to me. Like I said, I don't really even view the shirt itself negatively and I don't take particular exception to "Mother Nature" or ships being called "she" or whatever.

    It's just the weird lack of honesty about things and the instant jumps to, "You hate women! I gotcha!" that people predictably jump to, as seen here.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    People telling you you're being kinda misogynist over nothing is not you being sent to a gulag. It's minor criticism. That's it. You're complaining because people are critical of the views you're expressing. That's it.
    And there it is, you already retreated from your initial extreme view. We went from, "You don't want girls to exist in Star Wars!!" to a minor criticism over nothing.

  13. #1753
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    And there it is, you already retreated from your initial extreme view. We went from, "You don't want girls to exist in Star Wars!!" to a minor criticism over nothing.
    You misunderstand.

    Me pointing out all the whining that there's girls involved in Star Wars now is "minor criticism".

    You're just playing the victim over criticism. That's all you've faced. Basic criticism.


  14. #1754
    Quit this derailing, immediately. All of you know this is offtopic for this subforum. Go take your complaining about social agendas to GenOT.

  15. #1755
    Holy shit boys, time to let it go. Nothing is going to change with Disney. They said they wanted to move past the Skywalker saga but keep giving us shows set right dab in the middle of said saga. Could save themselves a lot of headaches if they would just go back a thousand years or jump ahead a couple hundreds and poof all their troubles would go away. Other than they seem to have forgotten how to make things fun

  16. #1756
    Quote Originally Posted by Theangryone View Post
    Could save themselves a lot of headaches if they would just go back a thousand years or jump ahead a couple hundreds and poof all their troubles would go away.
    That's probably not what their market research says. There's a reason they stick to the OT like glue - they're afraid that people won't be interested if there isn't something familiar to draw them in. Gotta have references to something established to anchor everything else, or people might get confused and not want to risk investigating the unknown. Or something.

    Whether or not that's ACTUALLY the case is a different story of course. But that's generally why franchises are reluctant to depart too far from their original roots. Why Harry Potter has to involve Hogwarts in everything even if a story is set on another continent, and so on - it's what people know, and people are more likely to pay money if it's something they know they like.

  17. #1757
    Quote Originally Posted by Theangryone View Post
    Holy shit boys, time to let it go. Nothing is going to change with Disney. They said they wanted to move past the Skywalker saga but keep giving us shows set right dab in the middle of said saga. Could save themselves a lot of headaches if they would just go back a thousand years or jump ahead a couple hundreds and poof all their troubles would go away. Other than they seem to have forgotten how to make things fun
    I can't agree with that, been plenty of "fun" in recent Star Wars offerings.

    Sure, some things fall flat, but no one bats 1.000. I had my gripes with Obi-Wan but it has it's moments. Also, I usually absolutely hate the "shockingly precocious child" trope, but I didn't even find myself thinking about it with Leia this time around, so I guess it worked. Maybe because they didn't make it absurd the way they did with Anakin in TPM.

  18. #1758
    Quote Originally Posted by Theangryone View Post
    Holy shit boys, time to let it go. Nothing is going to change with Disney. They said they wanted to move past the Skywalker saga but keep giving us shows set right dab in the middle of said saga. Could save themselves a lot of headaches if they would just go back a thousand years or jump ahead a couple hundreds and poof all their troubles would go away. Other than they seem to have forgotten how to make things fun
    People reward the nostalgia milking, tho. Mandalorian was one of the few Star Wars works that had nothing to do with the Skywalkers but even so people cheered when they shoved Luke in it.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

    The internet: where to every action is opposed an unequal overreaction.

  19. #1759
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    People reward the nostalgia milking, tho. Mandalorian was one of the few Star Wars works that had nothing to do with the Skywalkers but even so people cheered when they shoved Luke in it.
    Sadly, that's true. However, there's diminishing returns over time, especially now that they're probably going to have to start making repeat appearances like Luke. Even the people most susceptible to the nostalgia bait will eventually get bored of it or notice that it's bait.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Just once, I'd like to have a Star Wars thread where the main topic WASN'T complaining that there's girls in Star Wars now.
    The problem isn't that the characters are female, the problem is that characters are written terribly. I just so happens that all the females in the Kenobi show are written terribly, but so are all the men in the Kenobi show (aside from Owen, but he's tainted a bit in episode 6). The Kenobi show heavily focuses on Reva and Leia, so they're going to get the most attention because Disney wants people to pay attention to them. In the end, every character at one point or is constantly stupid or their actions are contrived in the Kenobi series. By how people react to legit criticism when it comes to character writing, plot, structure, etc. with stuff that should be in GenOT is pure deflection from the main issue: the people making and in charge of the Disney Star Wars content are doing a terrible job. Doesn't help that Disney's agenda, which they openly talk about, doesn't focus on good storytelling and character writing. This mistreatment of the Star Wars franchise is finally being picked up by the normies at this point, and this is completely independent of whatever political persuasion someone might have.

    The reality is that we could've had great shows about a female Inquisitor, or Leia in her youth, or a new female Jedi. Almost no one has an issue with that, and it's been done in the past where there's basically no legitimate complaints. Ahsoka is a prime example of a female Jedi who was initially not popular to many people but grew on the fan base over time. However, you almost certainly are never doing to see that with characters like Rey or Reva because their character writing is awful while Ahsoka's writing is generally much better.

    Again, this isn't about the gender of the characters that's bad, it's the character writing itself that's bad. It's not anyone's fault here if Disney likes to deflect away from the actual issues with their shows and movies, but we shouldn't accept nor propagate their gaslighting of the situation either.

    Anyways, I think a way more successful version of Kenobi wouldn't have a kid Leia, wouldn't have a Reva, wouldn't have Kenobi leaving Tatooine, wouldn't have Vader and Kenobi fighting, wouldn't have a ton of things. If anything, they kind of hit it on (but dropped the ball): have the series explore the relationship between Kenobi and Anakin more in the Clone Wars era. If you don't want to blatantly rip off TCW episodes (which they could and people probably would be fine with that if the show was decent), have them be flashbacks that are relevant to Vader and Kenobi in the current time that the Kenobi series took place. Have Kenobi dealing with new life in seclusion while reflecting on the past, and you could even have Vader hunting down Jedi or doing Sith-related things while recollecting the times with Kenobi. You could have each flashback be important or tie into what the current version of each character is doing, similar to the 5th episode of Kenobi... but actually have a logical connection. Ultimately, while I think this version of the show would be received better, it would still have to contend with the content creators at Disney turning out trash. If your show has bad writing, no matter the premise, it's going to be terrible.

    As a slight aside but related to this topic, I actually had a conversation today with someone who works for Disney that was in charge of Star Wars merch for many years until he got moved to another IP. He was actually involved with the designing of Ahsoka's lightsabers, which was actually kind of cool to hear about, but the main takeaway was that he understood how much fans actually like attention to detail and tried his best to get the merch to reflect that. Recently, he got moved back to the Star Wars IP for the same division, but requested to get moved away to where he was after a little while. His reason was that Disney stopped caring about the attention to detail that he knew the fans wouldn't like, and the company would actively fight against similar-minded employees who wanted to keep things accurate despite the objections. He actually took a moral stand on things, which is pretty gutsy, but his view was that although he was employed by Disney he was ultimately responsible to the fans.

    If anything, what he experienced working for Disney is what is being reflected in the content they release. Series like Kenobi aren't a love letter to the fans, it's a slap in the face (or just pure incompetence at best). Disney isn't trying to expand the Star Wars fan base... if anything, they're trying to reduce/overhaul their fan base to what they want, all while getting them to subscribe to D+.
    Last edited by exochaft; 2022-06-30 at 02:50 AM.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  20. #1760
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Whether or not that's ACTUALLY the case is a different story of course. But that's generally why franchises are reluctant to depart too far from their original roots. Why Harry Potter has to involve Hogwarts in everything even if a story is set on another continent, and so on - it's what people know, and people are more likely to pay money if it's something they know they like.
    I know people often cynically chalk this up "fear" or "lack of creativity" or "milking nostalgia" but it can also simply be the creators honestly trying to create things people like using the only points of reference they have - the things the fans said they liked.

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