So... how powerful is Azshara???

[Aucald]

Yes, we just see that Xavius has become a demigod and surpasses the wild gods in power
You say that it is all about the druids' weakness for Nightmare, but tell me. If Khadgar had faced Xavius, who would have won? Jaina? Velen? Gul'Dan in his usual form (not a hulk)? Do you really think that any of them would have a chance against him simply because they are not druids?

I don't know if I'd say that, really. Xavius never really fought a Wild God, to my knowledge - excepting Cenarius, whom he corrupted via the Nightmare but didn't actually fight outright. That's really part of the issue one has when doing these types of comparisons because "defeating" someone doesn't necessarily imply you are more powerful than that person in a 1:1 context. It's entirely possible that Cenarius could just stomp on and kill Xavius if they fought head to head, as it were; but they didn't - Xavius used his poisonous connection to the Dream to weaken and subvert Cenarius well ahead of time, and then enslaved the poor sot and made Cenarius temporarily fight on his behalf. If a weedy 100 lb. nerd managed to get the drop on a 300 lb. Olympic weightlifter you wouldn't say the nerd was "more powerful" than the weightlifter, they just managed to surprise and take them down via stealth.

I don't know about your hypothetical fights between Khadgar, Jaina, Velen, or Guldan vs. Xavius either. I don't really think Xavius is anywhere near as powerful as you think, so I think most of those characters could probably make a good showing against him. He'd win some matches, and he'd lose others. Xavius by virtue of his Nightmare connection has a special bonus vs. Druids, but he has powers of his own besides this. Personally I'd think he'd lose more often than he'd win, although sometimes he might prevail through guile or cunning use of his powers.

[TheRevenantHero]

Again...
Xavius and the Well could do virtually nothing against Malfurion.
Xavius, after becoming a servant of N'zoth, rose to the level of the demigods and was stronger than Cenarius.
Buff of N'Zoth >>>>> Well
LOL what? Why does the death of Nzot affect Azshara in any way? HE ALREADY GIVEN HER POWER. He did not tie her to himself, he simply gave her power, his death does not affect her personal power. Or did the death of the Titans somehow influence the powers of the Keepers or Aspects?

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What does it mean apparently? Sargeras caught all the demons that invaded the universe and established order in the universe. Do you want to tell me that Mannoroth did not invade the Universe or that Sargeras did not care about the Annihilian king? No need to give your headcanon for canon and continue to live in fantasy.
We can. Ulthalesh is stronger than Mannoroth. Also in the quest ''The Black Tome'' were mentioned Fel Lords, which even the Legion was afraid to summon.

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Illidan-tier? Azshara is KJ-tier, or even above.

The servants of Old Gods have always lost their power when their master died. The power is DIRECTLY linked to the Old God that granted them the power.

[Yarathir]

Depends on how powerful Blizzard needs her to be at any given moment.

[matrix123mko]

Can you prove that Mannoroth was not on Mardum?

Can you prove that he was there?

[Powerogue]

She's clearly a powerful sorceress but it's hard to say how much of her reputation boils down to her deathwing-sized ego planting the idea in all of her subjects that she's basically a goddess. Her strongest power is over the minds of others. She manipulated an old god. AN OLD GOD!!!!!

[darkoms]

I don't know if I'd say that, really. Xavius never really fought a Wild God, to my knowledge - excepting Cenarius, whom he corrupted via the Nightmare but didn't actually fight outright. That's really part of the issue one has when doing these types of comparisons because "defeating" someone doesn't necessarily imply you are more powerful than that person in a 1:1 context. It's entirely possible that Cenarius could just stomp on and kill Xavius if they fought head to head, as it were; but they didn't - Xavius used his poisonous connection to the Dream to weaken and subvert Cenarius well ahead of time, and then enslaved the poor sot and made Cenarius temporarily fight on his behalf. If a weedy 100 lb. nerd managed to get the drop on a 300 lb. Olympic weightlifter you wouldn't say the nerd was "more powerful" than the weightlifter, they just managed to surprise and take them down via stealth.

I don't know about your hypothetical fights between Khadgar, Jaina, Velen, or Guldan vs. Xavius either. I don't really think Xavius is anywhere near as powerful as you think, so I think most of those characters could probably make a good showing against him. He'd win some matches, and he'd lose others. Xavius by virtue of his Nightmare connection has a special bonus vs. Druids, but he has powers of his own besides this. Personally I'd think he'd lose more often than he'd win, although sometimes he might prevail through guile or cunning use of his powers.

When Xavius met with Ursoc, Ursoc told him that he could not defeat the demigod and Xavius said that he could, due to the strength of the Ancient Gods, and capture Ursoc. There was no battle and Ursoc had no chance. Xavius just came and took him. So yes, he is much stronger than the wild gods.

I can’t imagine that Khadgar, Jaina, Velen and Gul'dan could so easily defeat Ursoc. A nightmare also affects living things not related to Dream and even Undead, you know. Read ''Stormrage''. So Xavius could just as easily defeat even the Lich King.

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The servants of Old Gods have always lost their power when their master died. The power is DIRECTLY linked to the Old God that granted them the power.

Examples please?

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The servants of Old Gods have always lost their power when their master died. The power is DIRECTLY linked to the Old God that granted them the power.

Examples please?

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Can you prove that he was there?

You are trying to prove that Mannoroth is stronger than Ultthales. Your only argument is that Mannoroth was not in Mardum. According to you, the most powerful primordial demon is Mannoroth. And according to your logic, Sargeras, FOR ANY REASON that you stubbornly refuse to name, ignored the invasions of the annihilian king and the strongest demon of all and allowed him to walk free?

[Onvious]

why people always talk about wild gods or titan keepers ? I mean our lovely boy Lei Shen toyed with them so hard

[darkoms]

why people always talk about wild gods or titan keepers ? I mean our lovely boy Lei Shen toyed with them so hard

You mean Lei Shen, who defeated Ra only because he was depressed, and defeated the wild gods only because he already had the power of the Keepers, and even so he had to fight Xuen for 30 days?
Keepers> Wild Gods, yes, but the strongest of them, like Malorne and Xuen, may well be on the same level with Keepers

[Aucald]

When Xavius met with Ursoc, Ursoc told him that he could not defeat the demigod and Xavius said that he could, due to the strength of the Ancient Gods, and capture Ursoc. There was no battle and Ursoc had no chance. Xavius just came and took him. So yes, he is much stronger than the wild gods.

I can’t imagine that Khadgar, Jaina, Velen and Gul'dan could so easily defeat Ursoc. A nightmare also affects living things not related to Dream and even Undead, you know. Read ''Stormrage''. So Xavius could just as easily defeat even the Lich King.

Ursoc had already been corrupted by the Old Gods and cleansed in the events of WotLK, making him doubly susceptible to further corruption - like Cenarius and the other entities connected to the Dream he was weak against the power Xavius specifically wielded. Ursoc was also already dead at the time, a spirit-like inhabitant of the corrupted Dream and easy prey in that sense - he was still recovering from his previous death in WotLK, convalescing in the Dream. This is not the same thing as Xavius contending with a Wild God in the fullness of their power on the physical plane.

A raid of adventurers and champions also defeat Ursoc in the Nightmare, so I think it quite possible that Khadgar, Jaina, Velen, or Gul'dan could make a decent showing against him. The Nightmare being able to effect things isn't quite the same thing as it specifically corrupting and breaking the connection a certain class uses to fuel its very powers, either. It does not change the fact that Druids and entities connected to the Dream are specifically weak against the Nightmare's power (and as said before, Xavius had powers of his own beyond this). I also don't think Xavius is quite the equal of the Lich King - the undead do not dream, and have resistance even to the call of the Old Gods (the source of Xavius' power). Xavius would have to rely mostly on his own skill as a spellcaster, and I don't think that would be quite up to snuff against the Lich King in the fullness of his power.

[darkoms]

Ursoc had already been corrupted by the Old Gods and cleansed in the events of WotLK, making him doubly susceptible to further corruption - like Cenarius and the other entities connected to the Dream he was weak against the power Xavius specifically wielded. Ursoc was also already dead at the time, a spirit-like inhabitant of the corrupted Dream and easy prey in that sense - he was still recovering from his previous death in WotLK, convalescing in the Dream. This is not the same thing as Xavius contending with a Wild God in the fullness of their power on the physical plane.

A raid of adventurers and champions also defeat Ursoc in the Nightmare, so I think it quite possible that Khadgar, Jaina, Velen, or Gul'dan could make a decent showing against him. The Nightmare being able to effect things isn't quite the same thing as it specifically corrupting and breaking the connection a certain class uses to fuel its very powers, either. It does not change the fact that Druids and entities connected to the Dream are specifically weak against the Nightmare's power (and as said before, Xavius had powers of his own beyond this). I also don't think Xavius is quite the equal of the Lich King - the undead do not dream, and have resistance even to the call of the Old Gods (the source of Xavius' power). Xavius would have to rely mostly on his own skill as a spellcaster, and I don't think that would be quite up to snuff against the Lich King in the fullness of his power.

I am more and more surprised when I read you. That is, if I get the flu and recover, then will I be doubly vulnerable to the flu? Every time when I argue with you, you simply take some nonsense from the nothing and claim that it is an lore without providing any evidence other than your strange logical circuits, after which I have to point out inconsistencies and contradictions in these logical circuits. Please stop.
Yes, Ursoc was dead and he fell into the Emerald Dream after death. Would you like to tell me that the elemental in the Elemental Plan or the demon in the Twisting Nether is weaker than in the real world? Provide evidence that he never regained strength because of his death. This was never mentioned, and Ursoc says nothing about the fact that he is weak or something else. Stop inventing the lore and argue with me only with the help of what is really in the lore.
That is, Jaina, Khadgar and Gul'Dan >>> raid? It is interesting, considering that the Jaina raid boss is not on its own, and she is helped by the Kul'Tiras fleet, which fires at players, and Gul'Dan could not defeat the raid even in the hulk mode and with the Eye of Aman'Thul.
Undead does not dream, but at the same time the Nightmare acted on Sylvanas, I already told you to read the book ''Stormrage''. Also, resisting whispers is a stupid myth. The whisper of Yogg-Saron did not act on the Scourge, because their will was suppressed by the Lich King and they heard his voice. Free undead never showed any particular resistance to the whispers of the Old Gods and the Horde even has a quest where the Forsaken in the Stormsong Valley says that he hears some kind of dark whisper.

[Aucald]

I am more and more surprised when I read you. That is, if I get the flu and recover, then will I be doubly vulnerable to the flu? Every time when I argue with you, you simply take some nonsense from the nothing and claim that it is an lore without providing any evidence other than your strange logical circuits, after which I have to point out inconsistencies and contradictions in these logical circuits. Please stop.
Yes, Ursoc was dead and he fell into the Emerald Dream after death. Would you like to tell me that the elemental in the Elemental Plan or the demon in the Twisting Nether is weaker than in the real world? Provide evidence that he never regained strength because of his death. This was never mentioned, and Ursoc says nothing about the fact that he is weak or something else. Stop inventing the lore and argue with me only with the help of what is really in the lore.
That is, Jaina, Khadgar and Gul'Dan >>> raid? It is interesting, considering that the Jaina raid boss is not on its own, and she is helped by the Kul'Tiras fleet, which fires at players, and Gul'Dan could not defeat the raid even in the hulk mode and with the Eye of Aman'Thul.
Undead does not dream, but at the same time the Nightmare acted on Sylvanas, I already told you to read the book ''Stormrage''. Also, resisting whispers is a stupid myth. The whisper of Yogg-Saron did not act on the Scourge, because their will was suppressed by the Lich King and they heard his voice. Free undead never showed any particular resistance to the whispers of the Old Gods and the Horde even has a quest where the Forsaken in the Stormsong Valley says that he hears some kind of dark whisper.

Argue your points without stooping to strange personal insults in the process - if you want to attack the argument do so with lore, not by trying to claim them as "contradictions" or "inconsistencies" with zero evidence of either. This isn't an effective method of countering an argument and it doesn't look very good on a personal level, either; it weakens your overall position.

Old God corruption isn't the flu, either; those who fall victim to it tend to exhibit further weakness to it as evidenced by multiple characters in WoW (e.g. Ursoc himself, the Dragons of Nightmare, Ysera, etc. etc.) There is an element of the existing lore and can't really be combated by just shaking one's head and going "nope." This is also venturing pretty far afield from the actual topic of the thread, which isn't about Xavius, the Nightmare, or the majority of what we've been discussing. This makes your accusations toward me seem doubly odd as you keep venturing into deeper and more distant tangents in your goal to "win," I suppose? I'm not really sure what you're angling for here, to be honest. I mean, use basic logic here and tell me if you think a Wild God that recently died and is recovering in the Dream is at full strength here? Does that makes sense to you, does it scan? We know that Wild Gods who die in the physical plane return to the Dream to recover and eventually re-manifest physically - do you think that recovery process doesn't effect them in the slightest or something?

As for the rest of it, we're already far off track without having to get into extrapolations of whether a raid is the equal of a major NPC. Unless you have something substantive and clear to say about the actual thread topic or something at least adjacent to it, I consider this matter closed for my part.

[darkoms]

Argue your points without stooping to strange personal insults in the process - if you want to attack the argument do so with lore, not by trying to claim them as "contradictions" or "inconsistencies" with zero evidence of either. This isn't an effective method of countering an argument and it doesn't look very good on a personal level, either; it weakens your overall position.

Old God corruption isn't the flu, either; those who fall victim to it tend to exhibit further weakness to it as evidenced by multiple characters in WoW (e.g. Ursoc himself, the Dragons of Nightmare, Ysera, etc. etc.) There is an element of the existing lore and can't really be combated by just shaking one's head and going "nope." This is also venturing pretty far afield from the actual topic of the thread, which isn't about Xavius, the Nightmare, or the majority of what we've been discussing. This makes your accusations toward me seem doubly odd as you keep venturing into deeper and more distant tangents in your goal to "win," I suppose? I'm not really sure what you're angling for here, to be honest. I mean, use basic logic here and tell me if you think a Wild God that recently died and is recovering in the Dream is at full strength here? Does that makes sense to you, does it scan? We know that Wild Gods who die in the physical plane return to the Dream to recover and eventually re-manifest physically - do you think that recovery process doesn't effect them in the slightest or something?

As for the rest of it, we're already far off track without having to get into extrapolations of whether a raid is the equal of a major NPC. Unless you have something substantive and clear to say about the actual thread topic or something at least adjacent to it, I consider this matter closed for my part.

Sorry, it's hard for me to give a refutation when there is no evidence other than your fantasies.
Can you prove that Ursoc lost to Xavius ​​because he had already sweated before? Because even Cenarius, the stronger wild god, was corrupted, although he had not been corrupted before. Ysera has also never been spoiled before.
What does it mean recently? Do you have information on how long it takes to restore power to a wild god? Somewhere it was said) Somewhere it was said that Ursoc was not at full strength during a meeting with Xavius?
Xavius ​​is also stronger than Cenarius, as evidenced by the fact that he is the last raid boss after Cenarius. In raids, a stronger boss always comes after a weaker one.

[Aucald]

Sorry, it's hard for me to give a refutation when there is no evidence other than your fantasies.
Can you prove that Ursoc lost to Xavius ​​because he had already sweated before? Because even Cenarius, the stronger wild god, was corrupted, although he had not been corrupted before. Ysera has also never been spoiled before.
What does it mean recently? Do you have information on how long it takes to restore power to a wild god? Somewhere it was said) Somewhere it was said that Ursoc was not at full strength during a meeting with Xavius?
Xavius ​​is also stronger than Cenarius, as evidenced by the fact that he is the last raid boss after Cenarius. In raids, a stronger boss always comes after a weaker one.

Logical supposition from existing lore and, well, pretty basic cause and effect is not tantamount to "fantasies." Considering that much of what we're talking about and/or debating is entirely opinion-based, it's also pretty bad form to try to call it objectively flawed when there's quite literally no objective basis to be had for many things. Few to none of these characters have ever had any canon 1:1 fight we can refer to, and the basis we use to judge these things tends to be speculative, based on external circumstances, or comparative to the few match-ups we *do* know have conclusive winners and losers (e.g. Lei Shen vs. the Lich King, Death Knight Arthas vs. Illidan, etc. etc.)

So no, I can't "prove" Ursoc lost to Xavius because of his prior death and corruption, but the supposition makes logical sense based on what we already know - you don't know if Ursoc and Xavius even fought to any real capacity, either; the events of Ursoc's corruption aren't shown to us, just the result of it. It's entirely plausible that Xavius just hit Ursoc with a bolt of Nightmare energy and corrupted him without fanfare or even a fight to speak of - Ursoc was already compromised, it couldn't have taken that much effort. Same with Xavius and Cenarius as the two are never shown to actually fight, Cenarius just succumbs to the corruption of the Dream via the Nightmare and is taken into the Nightmare entirely, his mind addled and confused when we later find him and free him from said corruption. We know it took Malorne from until his death in the War of the Ancients until the events of Cata to fully return to the physical world, so I'd say while variable it takes a good long time for the Wild Gods to recover their strength - and since Ursoc had only been dead a few years at most, since WotLK, it's a safe bet he wasn't done convalescing.

Position in a raid isn't an indicator of strength, either; it's a gameplay mechanic that really has no bearing on such things, especially since in many cases raid bosses can be fought in the order of one's choosing, depending on which wing you want to go through or if you want to skip certain bosses. That's a lazy metric for determining actual strength in lore.

[darkoms]

Logical supposition from existing lore and, well, pretty basic cause and effect is not tantamount to "fantasies." Considering that much of what we're talking about and/or debating is entirely opinion-based, it's also pretty bad form to try to call it objectively flawed when there's quite literally no objective basis to be had for many things. Few to none of these characters have ever had any canon 1:1 fight we can refer to, and the basis we use to judge these things tends to be speculative, based on external circumstances, or comparative to the few match-ups we *do* know have conclusive winners and losers (e.g. Lei Shen vs. the Lich King, Death Knight Arthas vs. Illidan, etc. etc.)

So no, I can't "prove" Ursoc lost to Xavius because of his prior death and corruption, but the supposition makes logical sense based on what we already know - you don't know if Ursoc and Xavius even fought to any real capacity, either; the events of Ursoc's corruption aren't shown to us, just the result of it. It's entirely plausible that Xavius just hit Ursoc with a bolt of Nightmare energy and corrupted him without fanfare or even a fight to speak of - Ursoc was already compromised, it couldn't have taken that much effort. Same with Xavius and Cenarius as the two are never shown to actually fight, Cenarius just succumbs to the corruption of the Dream via the Nightmare and is taken into the Nightmare entirely, his mind addled and confused when we later find him and free him from said corruption. We know it took Malorne from until his death in the War of the Ancients until the events of Cata to fully return to the physical world, so I'd say while variable it takes a good long time for the Wild Gods to recover their strength - and since Ursoc had only been dead a few years at most, since WotLK, it's a safe bet he wasn't done convalescing.

Position in a raid isn't an indicator of strength, either; it's a gameplay mechanic that really has no bearing on such things, especially since in many cases raid bosses can be fought in the order of one's choosing, depending on which wing you want to go through or if you want to skip certain bosses. That's a lazy metric for determining actual strength in lore.

A logical supposition based on what? On your imagination? You did not provide any evidence that he lost due to the fact that he was previously influenced by the Nightmare or that he did not fully restore his strength.
No, this does not make logical sense. You just want your fantasies about a weak Xavia to look true and therefore try to prove that it is not Xavius ​​too strong, but Ursoc was weakened. And all this in order to prove that N'zoth does not give much strength to his servants, although Xavius ​​in his last form showed much more feats and showed much more power than Xavius ​​the night elf or Xavius ​​satyr. He didn’t just pump Ursoc with a Nightmare during their meeting. He just took him, and already in the raid the players meet with Ursoc after Xavius ​​corrupted him. Another stupid example. We have no idea how much Malorne restored his strength, just no one tried to resurrect him before the Cataclysm. He did not return himself, he was called. By your logic, Cenarius was not in full power in the Cataclysm, because 10 thousand years have not passed since his death?
What does the battle of Cenarius and Xavius ​​have to do with it? Xavius-LAST BOSS IN THE RAID. He comes after Cenarius, which means he is stronger than Cenarius. Last bosses are always the strongest. But now you, of course, will begin to prove that the last boss of the raid is not always the strongest, and I, of course, will ask for examples where the weaker boss comes after the stronger one and you, of course, will not be able to provide me with proofs other than your own fantasies.
Our disputes always goes according to one scenario. I ask for proof, but I get fantasies and assumptions that are not based on anything.

[Aucald]

A logical supposition based on what? On your imagination? You did not provide any evidence that he lost due to the fact that he was previously influenced by the Nightmare or that he did not fully restore his strength.

No, this does not make logical sense. You just want your fantasies about a weak Xavia to look true and therefore try to prove that it is not Xavius ​​too strong, but Ursoc was weakened. And all this in order to prove that N'zoth does not give much strength to his servants, although Xavius ​​in his last form showed much more feats and showed much more power than Xavius ​​the night elf or Xavius ​​satyr. He didn’t just pump Ursoc with a Nightmare during their meeting. He just took him, and already in the raid the players meet with Ursoc after Xavius ​​corrupted him. Another stupid example. We have no idea how much Malorne restored his strength, just no one tried to resurrect him before the Cataclysm. He did not return himself, he was called. By your logic, Cenarius was not in full power in the Cataclysm, because 10 thousand years have not passed since his death?

What does the battle of Cenarius and Xavius ​​have to do with it? Xavius-LAST BOSS IN THE RAID. He comes after Cenarius, which means he is stronger than Cenarius. Last bosses are always the strongest. But now you, of course, will begin to prove that the last boss of the raid is not always the strongest, and I, of course, will ask for examples where the weaker boss comes after the stronger one and you, of course, will not be able to provide me with proofs other than your own fantasies.

Our disputes always goes according to one scenario. I ask for proof, but I get fantasies and assumptions that are not based on anything.

Based on how both reality and the fantasy world of the Warcraft universe functions, more or less. I already said there is no evidence of the type you seem to be requiring - there's no canon "proof" of their fight, as there was no fight we were ever witness to. I cannot prove or disprove anything for which empirical evidence doesn't exist, nor can I prove a negative. The fact that you continue to require such "proof" points more to the fact you have no argument beyond what you want to be true. This isn't how debate or even conversation functions.

I never said Xavius was "weak," I simply said he wasn't as strong as you implied and supplied evidence to back up that conclusion. Your continued vehemence pretty adequately sums up why I seldom get involved in conversations of this kind - people have their favorite characters and always angle for them to be the most powerful, or the best, or able to always win every encounter. This isn't true for Xavius, just as it isn't true for nearly every character depending on who they're fighting. We can agree to disagree, as apparently you aren't going to be dissuaded and will just keep moving the goalposts eternally insofar as "proof" is concerned. There's nothing I can prove to you, be it with evidence-backed speculation or even canon lore in some cases. You'll just reinterpret whatever I say or claim to suit you, or discount it if you can't. There's no progress to be made in a self-sealing argument with an opponent who doesn't want their opinion challenged. As I said before, I don't how much time it takes for a Wild God or Ancient to restore themselves in the Dream - I simply surmised it takes a goodly degree of time. Perhaps Cenarius wasn't at full power when he was defeated either, perhaps that was why he could be defeated - who really knows. You call the example "stupid" only because you dislike what it implies, not because it doesn't make logical sense.

Again, there is no "proof" of the type you'll accept, because you won't accept a dissenting opinion. In a real sense we're not even having a debate - just a back and forth without the possibility of consensus. I think you're wrong, you think I'm wrong, and that's pretty much how it will be. Other people can make up their own minds.

[Oneirophobia]

The ocean is due to the tidestone, probably other things too. She relies on artifacts others have created.

I'm talking about in her War Bringer's cinematic. She didn't have a tidestone.

[Aucald]

The ocean is due to the tidestone, probably other things too. She relies on artifacts others have created.

The ocean was due to the massive disturbance caused by the Well of Eternity imploding in on itself, at that point Azshara had broken the Tidestone as an act of vengeance on Prince Farondis and Aszuna, causing them all to become ghosts cursed to dwell on the Broken Isles forever. She held back the tides all on her own, at least for a small while - an impressive show of magical force, but also futile in the end.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

No, we knew how strong Sargeras was. We've always known how strong he was, only before the Chronicles he was much weaker, so much so that it's stated he would've pleaded for a swift death if N'Zoth ever broke free. In old lore, Old Gods >>>>> Sargeras, which made more sense if Azshara was around Sargeras' level of power (lower obviously, but around there), since she was empowered by N'Zoth, and conversely Archimonde and Kil'jaeden were empowered by someone who was below Old Gods.

Hmm, okay, doesn't change the fact that Deathwing could've destroyed the entire world, making him a planet buster.

Nope. Sargeras was always the big bad even before Chronicles.

I know there were lots of Old God fans who wanted them to be the all powerful evil force, but there are no lore examples of this ever being the case. It was all headcanon based on a vague quote in an old novel written by Knaak (who's famous for writing ridiculous characters and twisting/making up his own lore).


Sure, the Old Gods were more menacing in the old lore when they were their own masters instead of puppets of the Void Lords, but their power wasn't any greater. They still lost instantly when the Pantheon arrived on Azeroth in the old lore aswell...

[matrix123mko]

You are trying to prove that Mannoroth is stronger than Ultthales. Your only argument is that Mannoroth was not in Mardum. According to you, the most powerful primordial demon is Mannoroth. And according to your logic, Sargeras, FOR ANY REASON that you stubbornly refuse to name, ignored the invasions of the annihilian king and the strongest demon of all and allowed him to walk free?

According to Chronicles, there were still demons that were dangerous to universe. I guess Sargeras didn't find Mannoroth in vast universe.

Annihilan are said to be stronger demons than nathrezim. It was once stated that only eredar are superior to them.

[DemonHunter18]

According to Chronicles, there were still demons that were dangerous to universe. I guess Sargeras didn't find Mannoroth in vast universe.

Annihilan are said to be stronger demons than nathrezim. It was once stated that only eredar are superior to them.

maybe on general basis, yeah.

but the strongest Dreadlords > strongest Pit Lord.

Dreadlords use Fel and Void and damp in forbidden arts.

Pit Lords are huge savages and physically intimidating.