your wishes for subtlety rogues in shadow lands.

[shoegazing]

shoegazing i support your efforts but i don't think we are being taken seriously. we are just wasting time; blizzards a big nothing Berger on everything about the products and support..

The game director already stated in an interview that they are looking at Subtlety's identity and rolling back some of the shadow magic nu-Rogue garbage to bring in more of the 'classic PvP archetype' of the Subtlety Rogue.

After the interview, I tweeted at him directly asking if it was indeed legit and he responded by liking my tweet.

I think the current tuning of the spec is also consistent with the view that they are unhappy with the current design and planning to make significant changes in 9.0.

We'll know a lot more soon.

[ymirsson]

without ever making a substantive statement about Subtlety Rogue.

Honestly, all you ever make are subjective posts about the "superior spec" that was "destroyed". I could quote thousands of other useless hyperbolish opinions of yours, but it all comes down to this. The last 15 years of your life, destroyed by the ever changing nature of a computer game.

Im not even poking fun at your goal per se, but fanatical zeal and your ever constant expression that vast legions of devoted sub rogues all over the world are tormented by these outrageous mutilation of "their" spec.

[shoegazing]

Honestly, all you ever make are subjective posts about the "superior spec" that was "destroyed". I could quote thousands of other useless hyperbolish opinions of yours, but it all comes down to this. The last 15 years of your life, destroyed by the ever changing nature of a computer game.

Im not even poking fun at your goal per se, but fanatical zeal and your ever constant expression that vast legions of devoted sub rogues all over the world are tormented by these outrageous mutilation of "their" spec.

I can simply quote my own posts to prove you wrong:

The spec was an awesome version of itself in WoD. It wasn't 100% perfect but had many great things going for it and was beloved in PvP and PvE. It had strong Rogue class identity, while also being completely unique among 36 specs in the game for the Find Weakness / Shadow Dance playstyle.

This is type of cycle is exactly what made the old Find Weakness playstyle so interesting and cool, except it was much better than what you have described, because you also had core rogue tools and concepts to fall back outside of the burst phase, giving a playstyle that both felt very connected to the greater Rogue class but also totally unique to Subtlety in the way that Find Weakness interacts with the core Rogue mechanics of the energy bar (pooling) and openers from Stealth/Dance.

If you want to argue about the game design, then let's argue about the game design. But it seems like you don't have anything substantive to say so you attack my style instead. To that I say, GTFO. Nobody cares.

Infracted.

[ymirsson]

If you want to argue about the game design, then let's argue about the game design. But it seems like you don't have anything substantive to say so you attack my style instead. To that I say, GTFO. Nobody cares.

Thats what i said, yes. Your way of expressing your possibly valid opinion is self indulgent, egocentric, full of assumptions and subjective perceptions. And if you dont like what i say, well, i dont like what you say.

Infracted.

[Naiattavain]

ymirsson your annoying go away. i don't respond to you because im ignoring everything you say.

Infracted.

[Razion]

Maybe Subtlety, if it's focusing on using shadow magic or ninjutsu-type of magic, could use mana instead of energy, and replenish mana based on the finishers it uses?

[Naiattavain]

rogues use energy. but perhaps reducing the costs of abilities is needed.

[Niwes]

my wishes: playable spec that not relies on st only and therefore is not shit bottom of pack.
after that, we can talk about details, like APM, niches, mechanics and what else.

[Finear]

i enjoyed sub in tbc and in legion

either of them would be fine imo

but also full redesign to something completely different could be fun

like a ranged spec

[Razion]

rogues use energy. but perhaps reducing the costs of abilities is needed.

Well, some free filler ability that can always be pressed can help the class feel like it always has something to press, even when energy isn't available. But, more on point, if spells are being cast, wouldn't it be a little weird if they cost energy? Sure dark magic drains casters of vitality often enough, but that kind of vibe seems more like it's in the warlock wheelhouse. I guess I'd rather see rogue abilities be completely free or cost combo points for finishers, and then see the niche or situational abilities cost mana like we see on the other casters... but maybe that's just me. Maybe most rogues wouldn't want to see mana when they cast spells.

I guess part of my initial thought process there was that warlocks would probably react negatively to rogues wielding magic and it costing some idea of vitality but not health in the mechanical way that has made fighting with them so detrimental in the past - it kind of seems like warlocks would be angry that rogues would be getting their fantasy of resource that they always wanted but better... but maybe that's presumptuous of me, maybe warlocks will be okay with rogues having energy for spells since they've always been using energy all along.

Still seems a little weird in principle for spells being cast to cost energy, but maybe that's just because it hasn't been done before. I guess there's no reason that can't be the case, and maybe it makes the most sense in practice and in gameplay for the class thematically in terms of it taking the drain on the wielder that frequently because they're not experienced casters, despite all the physical training not allowing them to draw on any more energy from themselves... but maybe they can do something with that. Like, thinking about which rogue specs have more base energy or faster energy regeneration than another, or how they can get energy back on their own that isn't passive, that kind of thing.

[shoegazing]

Maybe Subtlety, if it's focusing on using shadow magic or ninjutsu-type of magic, could use mana instead of energy, and replenish mana based on the finishers it uses?

that's a great idea, delete energy. while we are at it let's also delete stealth, and rename the class to something else since it won't even be a rogue anymore.

:|

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Thats what i said, yes. Your way of expressing your possibly valid opinion is self indulgent, egocentric, full of assumptions and subjective perceptions. And if you dont like what i say, well, i dont like what you say.

Yup, you have nothing at all to say about Subtlety Rogues. Why are you even here?

[Razion]

that's a great idea, delete energy. while we are at it let's also delete stealth, and rename the class to something else since it won't even be a rogue anymore.

:|

But seriously, let's talk about it. Let's say energy sticks around, and mana is introduced as well. If energy or mana (or even combo points) were to be used for situational or utility abilities (much in the way mages or warlocks or other dps casters use mana now), provided you had a large enough pool of the resource of each if either were used to use however many felt good with enough regeneration, which resource would be better fit for those shadow/ninja magic ability themes? Would combo points be necessary in this method for finishers as well, or would it be at all interesting to see finishers be tied to any other resource for a different spec?

[Varolyn]

Problem with sub, and to an extent, assassination, is that both specs conceptually are very similar in an RPG sense of things. Yes, they made assassin focus more on poisons while sub got upgraded stealth, they both still used stealth to attack enemies, both used underhanded tactics to take enemies out, both used daggers, and both were bursty specs (though the way the burst was done was different). Problem with this approach is that it often meant that one or the other would suffer in certain aspects of the game, which pretty much only made one of them viable in either pvp or pve (mostly pvp for sub, pve for assassin).

Blizz tried the shadow-dancer route back in Legion and still in BFA, but imo, they failed horribly at it. The spec plays more like a submachine gun rather than a sniper rifle, and even numbers aside, doesn't really have a niche in pve while really just being a nuisance in pvp. If blizz actually wanted sub to be "mystical" they probably had to do a little more, but I don't think wanted to go too overboard with the magic theme.

What I don't want is for blizz to turn Sub into "assassination B" as issues from the first point will arise again. HFC era sub was pretty fun, while mostly being absolved from that issue, but that current iteration would be unplayable in M+, which as much people hate to admit it, is more popular than pvp.

[Razion]

Problem with sub, and to an extent, assassination, is that both specs conceptually are very similar in an RPG sense of things. Yes, they made assassin focus more on poisons while sub got upgraded stealth, they both still used stealth to attack enemies, both used underhanded tactics to take enemies out, both used daggers, and both were bursty specs (though the way the burst was done was different). Problem with this approach is that it often meant that one or the other would suffer in certain aspects of the game, which pretty much only made one of them viable in either pvp or pve (mostly pvp for sub, pve for assassin).

Blizz tried the shadow-dancer route back in Legion and still in BFA, but imo, they failed horribly at it. The spec plays more like a submachine gun rather than a sniper rifle, and even numbers aside, doesn't really have a niche in pve while really just being a nuisance in pvp. If blizz actually wanted sub to be "mystical" they probably had to do a little more, but I don't think wanted to go too overboard with the magic theme.

There are some elements to take away from this. Rogues in the past have built on dancing in shadows, but dancing in and of itself isn't really a motif that is used in any other class at all. And yet when people think of a class that dances, most people tend to think of either Dancers specifically or even Bards. The idea of a dancer using their charm and guile to move gracefully and sneakily charm enemies to lower their guard and increase their weakness and make them vulnerable to subtle or fluid dancing-type attacks kind of lends itself to a bit of the established fantasy of the spec already.

Yet when people imagine a Dancer type class in other RPGs (like Primrose, in Octopath Traveler), usually the token weaponry this kind of role uses would be swords in the vein of scimitars or other curved swords. I wonder if subtlety went this route of using swords or fist weapons, or axes, or maces, if people would be receptive to it. Are subtlety rogues really attached to daggers? Should daggers be made slower like the other weapons so they can still be part of all three specs?

There's a lot of fantasy to pull from for dancing moves that would visually be very distinct and hard to confuse for what Assassination does (mostly a Poison fantasy), so in principle it would probably solve the problem a lot better than shadow or ninja magic which does sometime have some crossover with Assassination. But perhaps all these elements of dancing, shadow magic, and ninja magic can be blended together as well. Specifically, Kunoichi in other MMO depictions (like in BDO, awakening to Chakram) have a bit of blending with dancing elements as well in their fighting styles, and as mentioned earlier, Dancers in RPGs like Octopath Traveler are pretty recognizable as well. However, with ninja and shadow magic so ubiquitous and popular across the board and with so many more examples in other RPGs and MMOs, I wonder if people wouldn't feel more inclined to play Rogues, or even Subtlety specifically, if it went that route. But there is something to be said for the appeal of a Dancer spec as well.

One other thing that came to mind that doesn't really get thrown around a lot is thrown weapons. Should a spec focus on these? Thrown weapon abilities haven't really seemed to be all that popular, and there isn't a lot of outcry for any kind of Juggling spec that throws around a lot of projectile-type weapons or even knives specifically. Is there a place for it?

[Kaver]

It's super popular as proven by the spec's high popularity currently. LOL

To be fair, the popularity of specs in retail wow are mainly determined by the performance and forgiveness. Specs like BM hunter and Havoc DH which perform really well and are very easy and forgiving to play will always be popular no matter what they do to them. The main reason Sub is not popular right now with the mainstream player-base of WoW is because it has a very punishing gameplay and is low performing at the same time. A spec like that would be unpopular no matter what (with the mainstream player-base). If Sub performed like Havoc DH you would see a lot more people playing it.

[shoegazing]

But seriously, let's talk about it. Let's say energy sticks around, and mana is introduced as well. If energy or mana (or even combo points) were to be used for situational or utility abilities (much in the way mages or warlocks or other dps casters use mana now), provided you had a large enough pool of the resource of each if either were used to use however many felt good with enough regeneration, which resource would be better fit for those shadow/ninja magic ability themes? Would combo points be necessary in this method for finishers as well, or would it be at all interesting to see finishers be tied to any other resource for a different spec?

The problem with that concept is that it has nothing at all to do with the Subtlety Rogue that I've been playing for 15 years.

You can come up with all kinds of ideas that sound fine for a new spec on paper, but that doesn't mean they are going to be accepted be people who have played THEIR SPEC for so many years and have expectations about what its strengths, weaknesses, and playstyle are going to be.

I have no problem with the concept as a newly introduced spec. I have a massive problem with the concept of deleting my Subtlety Rogue and replacing it with something that I don't even recognize.

Blizzard specifically stated in the Shadowlands interviews and panels that "it's important not to disrupt players who have found a level of comfort in their spec." This is clear proof that they understand how badly they fucked up with these huge redesigns in Legion.

So even if you think your idea is a good one, and even if you don't care that a lot of Rogues would reject it because they want traditional Rogue gameplay, it's still pointless to talk about your idea in this thread because Blizzard has made it very clear that they aren't going to do anything like that.

What we do know is that they believe they went too far with the shadow magic nonsense, and they want to bring back the Rogue class identity and bring back more of the "PvP archetype of a Subtlety Rogue that is focused on burst, control, and Stealth".

- - - Updated - - -

To be fair, the popularity of specs in retail wow are mainly determined by the performance and forgiveness. Specs like BM hunter and Havoc DH which perform really well and are very easy and forgiving to play will always be popular no matter what they do to them. The main reason Sub is not popular right now with the mainstream player-base of WoW is because it has a very punishing gameplay and is low performing at the same time. A spec like that would be unpopular no matter what (with the mainstream player-base). If Sub performed like Havoc DH you would see a lot more people playing it.

Do you really think it's an accident that Subtlety is tuned so unfavorably? Or do you think it's intentional because they don't want people getting attached to a playstyle that is getting removed in 9.0 ? They have done that with the past, for example with Demonology warlocks in WoD which Blizzard admitted were deliberately and intentionally undertuned because of dramatic changes Demo would receive in Legion.

What I do know for certain is that the game director Ion Hazzikostas gave an interview around Blizzcon time with a german magazine in which he stated that they weren't happy with the way Subtlety turned out in Legion and BFA and they are planning changes to it in Shadowlands. Keeping that in mind, it seems obvious that the undertuning is deliberately done with the intention of discouraging players from even playing the current iteration of Subtlety.

[Razion]

The problem with that concept is that it has nothing at all to do with the Subtlety Rogue that I've been playing for 15 years.

You can come up with all kinds of ideas that sound fine for a new spec on paper, but that doesn't mean they are going to be accepted be people who have played THEIR SPEC for so many years and have expectations about what its strengths, weaknesses, and playstyle are going to be.

I have no problem with the concept as a newly introduced spec. I have a massive problem with the concept of deleting my Subtlety Rogue and replacing it with something that I don't even recognize.

Blizzard specifically stated in the Shadowlands interviews and panels that "it's important not to disrupt players who have found a level of comfort in their spec." This is clear proof that they understand how badly they fucked up with these huge redesigns in Legion.

So even if you think your idea is a good one, and even if you don't care that a lot of Rogues would reject it because they want traditional Rogue gameplay, it's still pointless to talk about your idea in this thread because Blizzard has made it very clear that they aren't going to do anything like that.

What we do know is that they believe they went too far with the shadow magic nonsense, and they want to bring back the Rogue class identity and bring back more of the "PvP archetype of a Subtlety Rogue that is focused on burst, control, and Stealth".

Well they have (in addition to the other themes they've mentioned for subtlety) also brought up concerns of Subtlety being too close to Assassination in a lot of respects. While I do think for Shadowlands we probably wouldn't see any immediate disruption, I don't think that necessarily means they won't take these long breaks to think about what players want for the direction of the spec to address those areas where they think Subtlety can improve. So I think it would probably be best to focus on what people who play Subtlety would like to see, or if there's another archetype that Subtlety players can or want to latch onto. (Illusions? Dancing? Throwing?)

Like, more on point, if Subtlety players are saying they look and/or feel too similarly to Assassination, do they want only the visuals of Subtlety to change? To what? Would they rather have their visuals stay the same and have Assassination have even more of a poison focus? What do Assassination rogues think of that poison focus being even more prominent - do they even feel like stabby rogues anymore? Is part of the problem with what Subtlety and Assassination want is that they both want to be the stabby dagger Rogue spec but they both want to be the only one? If one spec is going to be about just the stabbing, what is the other going to be about? It seems like the Assassination fantasy is more or less locked in with poisons, and getting them into enemies with weaponry and in some cases vials or concoctions.

But also that's a great point, that Stealth is pretty under-utilized in terms of the regular moment to moment gameplay of Subtlety. You kind of only get those periodic Shadow Dance moments (where a lot of openers can be used), and maybe Stealth isn't part of the effective moment to moment gameplay as much as it should be. There are some other depictions of rogues in other MMOs that use Stealth more regularly in their combat - like Wildstar's Stalker - that will disorient enemies when it uses that Stealth while being hidden and keeping the targets it was in combat with in combat, and reappear with all these different openers. And to that end, if the WoW Subtlety rogue wants that, what do they want it to look like, and feel like? Like Shadow Dance? Something different? Also, if Subtlety really wants a focus on PvP viability that focuses on control and burst, what kinds of control are dedicated Subtlety rogues looking for, that can also appeal to what current Subtlety players expect from them out of M+? If in M+ a lot of the group expects Subtlety to just bring Cloaks for invulnerability and Concealment for group passage, but Subtlety wants to burst and control enemies, should Concealment also turn into a group-wide kind of stunning and group-buffing kind of tool? If Stealth changes to accommodate these kinds of changes, would Subtlety and rogues in general be happy with it, or is Stealth an area that can't be changed?

[Kaver]

Do you really think it's an accident that Subtlety is tuned so unfavorably? Or do you think it's intentional because they don't want people getting attached to a playstyle that is getting removed in 9.0 ? They have done that with the past, for example with Demonology warlocks in WoD which Blizzard admitted were deliberately and intentionally undertuned because of dramatic changes Demo would receive in Legion.

What I do know for certain is that the game director Ion Hazzikostas gave an interview around Blizzcon time with a german magazine in which he stated that they weren't happy with the way Subtlety turned out in Legion and BFA and they are planning changes to it in Shadowlands. Keeping that in mind, it seems obvious that the undertuning is deliberately done with the intention of discouraging players from even playing the current iteration of Subtlety.

I don’t want to discuss speculation. Further, it is besides my point. You use the popularity of a spec as an argument for your cause, but throughout the history of WoW the main factor for popularity has been performance. For most classes people will play the spec that performs the best (with a few exceptions). Forgiveness of the spec will of course also play a large role. The current low number of Sub parses are based on performance and forgiveness more than anything else.

[Naiattavain]

just please fix subtlety and then leave it alone like it was for the 15 years. this is why we love subtlety because it stay the same.

[Lazuli]

Literally just roll it back to any pre-legion patch and there ya go I fixed sub and would play rogue again.
Its crazy this spec has been unplayable for 2 xpacs now.
Maybe the 3rd one is the charm, but I wouldn't put my money on the fucking retards making decisions at activisionBlizztard.