Horde Catapults too OP

[Minikin]

pffft , haven't your heard ? Mages can now sraight up teleport the catapults's projectiles directly inside the target. The vindicaar will never be safe.

or

teleport the vindicaar inside the projectile!


modern problems require modern solutions

[Mehrunes]

I hae the game as a source and the fact the alliance won without even pulling half its trump cards.

You have a few badly written books. Stuff that's easily medan'ed if they want to.

Not even the book, just a line from a book. That ignores basicly everything in game.

A book that is canon. While you have your heartfelt desire to pretend that canon lore that doesn't suit your fancy stops being canon because you wish that to be the case. All the while completely ignoring the fact that in-game lore can and has been retconned just as well. And only in some hypothetical future where it's "medan'ed". In other words, you have nothing.

Especially since, as I already pointed out, there is no actual source, in-game or otherwise, that would support your claims in regards to the Horde navy. And you have less than nothing in regards to your claim about the naval balance of power because you didn't even attempt to make any arguments about the Alliance fleet. Meaning that even if one put aside you conjuring out numbers about Horde losses out of thin air, you are still utterly missing half of the equation to talk about the balance. Never mind that Alliance characters talked about the losses their navy took in the war against the Legion. Which they did in-game. So there's nothing for my "line from a book" to actually ignore from the game.

Also the alliance haven't lost any zones.
Have u not seen the new darkshore ending fml

Have you missed the part we were talking about the previous faction war there?

[Antero]

A wizard did it.

[Mehrunes]

they have done this many times...
its not an enchant its literally just guiding fire like you would for a normal spell.
and dont do it all the time cause usually they can reach what they need to shoot without problem.

Are you still clinging to your argument about spells in-game auto-homing on target because WoW isn't a shooter?

Is there any war the Horde won since the beginning? The first one maybe? Since they established a foothold on Azeroth?

The First War, yes. Though it was only against Stormwind. On the other hand, it was only a handful of Clans from the effectively scouting team. The main body of the Horde hasn't set foot on Azeroth until the Second War (and even then they still left many Clans on Draenor). And since then, the only way for the Alliance to ever survive a war against the Horde has been the Horde imploding on itself. Or in the case of the last one, given the very few rejects actually rebelling this time, the Horde simply suffering from severe amnesia and forgetting that they stood behind Sylvanas and her war for a reason just because she said a mean thing.

War against the alliance?
No, as most of the wars ended in mutral peace treaties.
neither faction has "won a war" against the other, as they all ended in treaties, not one wiping out the other.

You have a very novel view on winning a war.

Several demi-gods if push comes to shove.

Khadgar, magni, malfurion, the Lich king bolivar.

The hords "freinds" and allies arn't even in the same league of power as what the alliance could call on if bfa had started going badly for the alliance.

The strongest one of these is Bolvar and he was soloed by Sylvanas despite Bolvar having reinforcements. Not that Khadgar, Bolvar or even Magni gave a shit about the faction war.

Mehrunes is trying to argue super weapons but even in the front the hord looses.

The night well is dead and gone after Legion it was shut down because it was poised

The sun well is infused with light nit arcane now, light from a naruu, allied to an alliance race, infused by velan the leader of an alliance race, and the alliance being steeped in the light as well as having the very army of the light on its side..... I wouldn't go counting the light as an effective weapon against the alliance.

Is any of what you said here supposed to make the Alliance immune to the Light or what? The Legion was steeped in Fel. Illidan still used Fel to fight them. Never mind that your claim that the Sunwell is infused with the Light and not Arcane is outright wrong as it's infused with both, which was, you know, the point of what Velen did. A point so explicitly stated he flat out said it. But hey, it's book material so with your flippant attitude to book canon lore I guess it's natural you missed that. Oh, wait, it's in-game lore. Whoopsie.

And no one said a word about the Nightwell. Also, the very point of my reply to @Specialka was that was that both factions have super weapons that were unused because plot convenience, so way to miss it.

And the gun is goblin tech, shitty, never fired, and its payload unless Azerite infused is likely not big enough to level even one of Stormwind districts, its comparable to the guns the Germans had in ww1 to bombard Paris. Only storming has mages to make shields.

Except for, you know, the Blackfuse's company tech that allowed Garrosh to put up a fight against the Alliance and stark majority of the Horde combined. For which the Bilgewater Cartel got the blueprints in WoD (and then they got the Iron Horde remnant as well). Also, you're conjuring your claims about Azerite payloads from thin air in real time while pretending you got an argument here. And Theramore had Mages to make shields too. Weirdly enough, Theramore ended up being a crater.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I don't really get this example. What's so special about the Lich King rising Sindragosa that would require extra justification? She's just a bigger than average dragon. Random twerps raised dragons en masse in both the Obsidian and Ruby Dragonshrines

It’s not that it needs extra justification it’s that wow never really goes into details on magic when in cut scenes or even in game there’s no real setup arthas just stabs the ice and boom a dragon. Within the actual lore we know why just like we knows shamans/mages were involved with catapults.

Blowing planets up with portals was used twice. And Illidan planned to do it to Argus as well. The Lich King completely backfired on the Legion. Same with Varian splitting for the Black Dragonflight (not that I get what was the intended purpose to begin with). Plus it was fucking stupid so it's actually better left forgotten.

Unless I’m remembering wrong which is possible the two planets blew up for different reasons and neither is used a second time though your right illidan was planning to. Outland more or less got ripped by tomany portals while illidan blew up his portal while putting the whole explosion on one side I believe.

[Mehrunes]

Except demanding sylvan's head.

You really think when push comes to shove those guys would have Sat back and let sylvanas win? When they out right hate her?

If you think that your as delusional as hitter was thinking Britain would stay neutral when he invaded Poland.

Except for the part where Great Britan had a defensive treaty with Poland, which is somehow missing in the Scourge-Alliance relations (and even then, they didn't actually do anything to help Poland other than declaring war).

You think bolvar wouldnt have made an intervention if sylvanas looked like she was going to win, with him knowing what she was really up to?

He clearly did not know what she was up to as per the Shadowlands cinematic.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

That is only because of "plot". Khadgar is clearly a member of the Alliance, but isn't due to gameplay purposes. If his homeland/people were to be attacked LOREWISE he would rush to defend it. Just because he was buddies with Xx_Illidanbloodelfdh_xX doesn't mean he wouldn't protect his own people from an attacking force.

I means that’s just not true khadgar has been around since tbc and has never acted in an alliance manor even when the people he know have been under attack. Mabye if he wasn’t in tbc and just showed up in legion you can say this but at this point it’s incredibly clear that he doesn’t have any faction bias.

[FelPlague]

So the allies dint win ww1 or 2 cos Germany still exists?

Wars don't have to end in genocide. Its about who capitulates first usualy is the looser and that's been the hord twice.

Yes they did, the literally said "hey we are taking all your shit and limiting what you can do" they had full control over what hapepned with germany.
meanwhile alliance and horde just said "no more fighting" one faction didnt force laws, limits, or disarm the other faction.

- - - Updated - - -

To win, you do not need to wipe out the opposite party. If so, the Germany would not longer exist. You need to force the opposite party to have peace with you with YOUR terms. And as far as I know, the Horde never won a war. The Alliance always had the upper hand.

Same as above ^^^

[Mehrunes]

To win, you do not need to wipe out the opposite party. If so, the Germany would not longer exist. You need to force the opposite party to have peace with you with YOUR terms. And as far as I know, the Horde never won a war. The Alliance always had the upper hand.

The Alliance always managed to miraculously survive after the Horde repeatedly kicked their teeth in. And in the last two wars they didn't force anything on the Horde. After MoP they offered Azshara to the Horde so that the Horde would willingly leave Ashenvale (and didn't even mention all the zones Sylvanas forced Alliance out of in EK). And in this one the factions signed their treaty that no one forced on anyone, after the Horde went "meh, with Sylvanas leaving we won't fight you", with both Alliance and Horde traitors talking about how Sylvanas' army would have destroyed them otherwise.

[Specialka]

The Alliance always managed to miraculously survive after the Horde repeatedly kicked their teeth in. And in the last two wars they didn't force anything on the Horde. After MoP they offered Azshara to the Horde so that the Horde would willingly leave Ashenvale (and didn't even mention all the zones Sylvanas forced Alliance out of in EK). And in this one the factions signed their treaty that no one forced on anyone, after the Horde went "meh, with Sylvanas leaving we won't fight you", with both Alliance and Horde traitors talking about how Sylvanas' army would have destroyed them otherwise.

First, Baine and co are not traitors but Heroes. And second, I would like to remind you that Sylvanas allied herself (and so the Horde) to a scion of an Old God, enemy of all life on Azeroth, to trick the Alliance Navy into a trap, killing a lot of Horde troops in the process leading to the release of said Old God and the death of even more Horde Troops and endangering the world itself.

[Mehrunes]

First, Baine and co are not traitors but Heroes. And second, I would like to remind you that Sylvanas allied herself (and so the Horde) to a scion of an Old God, enemy of all life on Azeroth, to trick the Alliance Navy into a trap, killing a lot of Horde troops in the process leading to the release of said Old God and the death of even more Horde Troops and endangering the world itself.

They literally betrayed the Horde, killed multiple Horde members on their way and in the end stood against it hand in hand with their masters in the Alliance, i.e. the enemy of the Horde after they crawled over to god-boiking to kiss his ass. So they most certainly are traitors because words mean things. And I'm not sure what your remark about Sylvanas is supposed to add here. Though as to that bit about endangering the world, the same Alliance and would-be-Alliance characters that fawned over the size of Sylvanas' army also said that it was capable of fighting N'Zoth.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

First, Baine and co are not traitors but Heroes. And second, I would like to remind you that Sylvanas allied herself (and so the Horde) to a scion of an Old God, enemy of all life on Azeroth, to trick the Alliance Navy into a trap, killing a lot of Horde troops in the process leading to the release of said Old God and the death of even more Horde Troops and endangering the world itself.

Your not a hero just because after tens if not hundreds of thousands of deaths you change sides that just makes you a monster with nonsensical limits. Bane betrays his “morals” betrays his people and betrays his leader he is a traitor in every to sense of the word rather that be for the good or bad of Azeroth.

Saurfang is even worse.

[Specialka]

They literally betrayed the Horde, killed multiple Horde members on their way and in the end stood against it hand in hand with their masters in the Alliance, i.e. the enemy of the Horde after they crawled over to god-boiking to kiss his ass. So they most certainly are traitors because words mean things. And I'm not sure what your remark about Sylvanas is supposed to add here. Though as to that bit about endangering the world, the same Alliance and would-be-Alliance characters that fawned over the size of Sylvanas' army also said that it was capable of fighting N'Zoth.

Tell that to every ppl that succeeded at a coup. They are not seen as traitor but whatever. We know you are biaised.

And Sylvanas (and those who followed her) betrayed the world. And before that genocide a ppl (NE), lead a war because she thought peace was not possible (though it was mostly to increase the death count to empower her), etc...

I can't see Baine and co as traitors sorry. They stood firm for their beliefs, they think they can live in peace with the Alliance and they want to protect the world. If some ppl that are blind, followers of a lunatic genocidal maniac have to die to achieve that, so be it, they won't be missed.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Tell that to every ppl that succeeded at a coup. They are not seen as traitor but whatever. We know you are biaised.

And Sylvanas (and those who followed her) betrayed the world. And before that genocide a ppl (NE), lead a war because she thought peace was not possible (though it was mostly to increase the death count to empower her), etc...

I can't see Baine and co as traitors sorry. They stood firm for their beliefs, they think they can live in peace with the Alliance and they want to protect the world. If some ppl that are blind, followers of a lunatic genocidal maniac have to die to achieve that, so be it, they won't be missed.

Bane is one of those followers of that lunatic genocidal maniac. He is the same cow that stood with garrosh even though he knew what he was doing was wrong, he’s the same cow who stuck with sylvanas after the night elf genocide after the horde own troops were blighted and after the horde were pinning civ’s to walls in kul tiras. He’s not some one rising up to over throw a tyrant he’s a co conspirator who broke one day his hands are just as stained in blood as any other follower or sylvanas.

[Specialka]

Bane is one of those followers of that lunatic genocidal maniac. He is the same cow that stood with garrosh even though he knew what he was doing was wrong, he’s the same cow who stuck with sylvanas after the night elf genocide after the horde own troops were blighted and after the horde were pinning civ’s to walls in kul tiras. He’s not some one rising up to over throw a tyrant he’s a co conspirator who broke one day his hands are just as stained in blood as any other follower or sylvanas.

And that is why he rebelled, as he said it: "My heart can't bear it no longer". He knows his hands are stained with blood (like most of the cast, and they know it).

If you can't see that, well, there is nothing I can hope from you.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

And that is why he rebelled, as he said it: "My heart can't bear it no longer". He knows his hands are stained with blood (like most of the cast, and they know it).

If you can't see that, well, there is nothing I can hope from you.

Being aware that you are a blood stained monster doesn’t suddenly make you a hero. This is one if not the biggest flaw with the faction wars one side soaks it self in rivers of blood and once they get tired of it they are treated as if they did nothing wrong and were “just following orders”.

[Specialka]

Being aware that you are a blood stained monster doesn’t suddenly make you a hero. This is one if not the biggest flaw with the faction wars one side soaks it self in rivers of blood and once they get tired of it they are treated as if they did nothing wrong and were “just following orders”.

Yes, that is most of the Horde, but I fail to see Baine as a blood stained "monster". But whatever.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Yes, that is most of the Horde, but I fail to see Baine as a blood stained "monster". But whatever.

Ya when you and your people support two separate genocidal leader and openly defend them against the victims of said genocides your a spotless hero.

[Specialka]

World is not black or white, there are grey areas.

And when your ppl face annihilation if you rebel, you don't. But sometimes, when your leader goes too far as Sylvanas did, you have no other choice.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

World is not black or white, there are grey areas.

And when your ppl face annihilation if you rebel, you don't. But sometimes, when your leader goes too far as Sylvanas did, you have no other choice.

Ah yes the “just following orders” defense. Who cares about genocide who cares about killing your own men or spreading plague all over the earth mother as long as your “just following orders” it’s A-okay!

The world ain’t black and white but when you go as far as bane does you lose any claim to being in the grey even if you try and back out.