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  1. #141
    I am Murloc!
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    I have to wonder what even is the argument in the last few dozen posts. Who cares if BFA or Legion had a higher degree of "borrowed power". The problem is exactly the same in both cases. When the next expansion comes, all of this will be gone and your character will be a shadow of their former self. It happened in Legion prepatch, where they had to nerf the raid by some insane amount, because it was impossible to kill bosses with nerfed characters. BFA was slightly different, since the power loss only happened at level 116, but it was still a major blow to our characters.

    Legion had the advantage of Artifact weapons augmenting the character base abilities, in most cases giving them additional ability. Azerite used to be dominated by generic, non-class specific traits and damage procs. It's been somewhat improved for certain specs, but plenty of them are still pretty weak. Corruptions are just crazy powerful trinket effects, way stronger than any tier sets. Again, most Legendaries had the advantage of amplifying class specific abilities.

    Either way, the actual % of this "borrowed power" does not matter. What matters is classes were gutted at their core and are only "fixed" by gear for the duration of the expansion. Yeah, sure, Blizzard claims we'll have some of our "iconic" abilities back in Shadowlands, but who know how that will work out. We know for a fact that Covenants will be yet another borrowed power and it remains to be seen how strong that ends up being.

    And perhaps the most annoying part of this new system is feeling that you constantly have to work for something that will be completely irrelevant within next few patches. It was fine when this was only the case with gear, but losing your actual toolkit is far more annoying. Especially when gear came naturally from playing, but AP was quite a grind and only became relatively easy in 8.3. I don't know if I want to spend months farming "Anima Points" through thousands of repetitive World Quests, only to throw them all away at the end.

    At very least, some of that stuff could be used to make a new talent row. There's a ton of stuff that was created and then completely abandonded. Even from design point of view, it feels like a colossal waste of resources to not utilize them in future expansions in any way.
    Last edited by KaPe; 2020-02-05 at 05:46 AM.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    Either way, the actual % of this "borrowed power" does not matter. What matters is classes were gutted at their core and are only "fixed" by gear for the duration of the expansion.
    We have always been "fixed" by gear. There is a reason why item level has increased and been squished. Because every expansion we are "borrowing" power. I don't really get this fixation on rental or borrowed power as if it is anything new. It is just the latest buzzword people use to make their argument seem like it has more weight and brand new. When it is the same old stuff.

    Every expansion our characters have a reset. Stats are now based on level cap. Top gear is now no longer top. We earn everything back over the course of an expansion. Only to have it reset. Crying over it now is dumb since it has always been this way. Artifacts, Azerite, and Corruption doesn't change that at all. It shouldn't matter if it is "magnified" since it is still borrowing power.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  3. #143
    I am Murloc!
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    We have always been "fixed" by gear. There is a reason why item level has increased and been squished. Because every expansion we are "borrowing" power. I don't really get this fixation on rental or borrowed power as if it is anything new. It is just the latest buzzword people use to make their argument seem like it has more weight and brand new. When it is the same old stuff.

    Every expansion our characters have a reset. Stats are now based on level cap. Top gear is now no longer top. We earn everything back over the course of an expansion. Only to have it reset. Crying over it now is dumb since it has always been this way. Artifacts, Azerite, and Corruption doesn't change that at all. It shouldn't matter if it is "magnified" since it is still borrowing power.
    No, this wasn't the case in every expansion. Other than set bonuses (which were far weaker than the stuff from Legion/BFA) and the gear itself, there wasn't really any "your key abilities will stop working after next major patch". Pre-patches used to completely trivialize final raid tier and Legion was the first time things turned out to be different, with characters becoming massively weaker and feeling incomplete.

    There's a reason why Blizz is claiming that they'll be bringing some of baseline abilities back - because people want their core class to be improved, not merely getting things they'll throw out after few months. I'm still fairly skeptical in how it will turn out, but we'll see.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Why even bother showing you sims when you don't want to respect the time and effort someone do to actually prove something. While you come here and are excusing overpowered stuff in Legion, but in BfA there is no such thing when it's in front of you. Overpowered Artifact gave you what, 8% damage increase? While corruption do this at max ilvl:
    .
    You still haven't showed sim. Where is the profile? Without it you can spam images all you want and they are not going to be credible at fukken all.

    And now, funny thing

    DH with one infinite stars rank 3 = 91K
    DH with double infinite stars rank 3 = 102K
    DH without borrowed power = 41K

    Quick calcs = 59% of borrowed power still not close to 70%


    DH with triple infinite stars rank 3 = 118K (OH BABY ITS TRIPPLE)

    65% of borrowed power. Legion artifact alone gave you like 66%
    And no matter how you look at it, you need 3 items and 225 corruption, good luck with that.

    This time im even gonna include full report: https://suspicious-montalcini-33e6af.netlify.com/

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    No, this wasn't the case in every expansion. Other than set bonuses (which were far weaker than the stuff from Legion/BFA) and the gear itself, there wasn't really any "your key abilities will stop working after next major patch". Pre-patches used to completely trivialize final raid tier and Legion was the first time things turned out to be different, with characters becoming massively weaker and feeling incomplete.
    Talents have changed every expansion since Cataclysm at least. Classes have changed abilities. Some more than others. Rotations and end game play is always changing. Azerite, and artifacts before it, is nothing new for changing rotations with a new expansion. Of course Blizzard is bringing some abilities back. Because things always change. How delusional are you that you think abilities have only been changed with Legion and BfA?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  6. #146
    Corruption what. Remove the system, anything good gets nerfed anyway, it doesn't even feel like a power, more like a punishment.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    We have always been "fixed" by gear. There is a reason why item level has increased and been squished. Because every expansion we are "borrowing" power. I don't really get this fixation on rental or borrowed power as if it is anything new. It is just the latest buzzword people use to make their argument seem like it has more weight and brand new. When it is the same old stuff.

    Every expansion our characters have a reset. Stats are now based on level cap. Top gear is now no longer top. We earn everything back over the course of an expansion. Only to have it reset. Crying over it now is dumb since it has always been this way. Artifacts, Azerite, and Corruption doesn't change that at all. It shouldn't matter if it is "magnified" since it is still borrowing power.
    Because it reached insane levels in legion, that is the problem. When you build a class based around artifact that compelled the class so much, it felt like losing a core part of it when it was gone.

    Actually, essences are example of "good" borrowed power as they do not have a part in class integrity. They are generic.
    Whereas some azerite traits does interfere with your class.
    And we have legion artifact that basically was core part of your class, it didn't "interfere" with it, it was a part of it..
    Same goes for legiondaries which were basically talent-items.

    So long story short, borrowed power is fine as long as it's not that powerful and doesn't compel you class or worse, is a part of it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Talents have changed every expansion since Cataclysm at least. Classes have changed abilities. Some more than others. Rotations and end game play is always changing. Azerite, and artifacts before it, is nothing new for changing rotations with a new expansion. Of course Blizzard is bringing some abilities back. Because things always change. How delusional are you that you think abilities have only been changed with Legion and BfA?
    It is not the same. Changing classes by reworking it or rearranging talents means no matter what gear or ilvl or luck you have, it will feel the same through entire expansion.
    But with gear, not only you will be getting stronger but also the feeling will change.
    It was mostly noticeable with legion legendaries, for almost a year you didn't get your bis, then suddenly BAM! your class feels different.
    And the same thing happened with tier sets with the exception, everyone got their set within about a month or so.
    While some lucky guy could get that BiS at start of expansion and you didn't get yours for a year.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    So long story short, borrowed power is fine as long as it's not that powerful and doesn't compel you class or worse, is a part of it.
    But Legion and BfA just added the typical expansion abilities as part of gear rather then baseline. It isn't anything different at all. Most expansions have added something that changed rotations or how a class has played. Some specs have had a ton of over hauls like Demonology Warlocks as well. It didn't reach insane levels with Legion it just changed the packaging.

    Also essences that give us abilities (or the Mechagon one that directly impacts class abilities) are the exact same thing as artifact traits. It doesn't matter if it has flavor text to make it identify with a class. It is still the same thing. Are you really going to argue that a Fireball and a Shadowbolt are different abilities just because of their names? And that flinging an Azerite bolt is some how less "borrowed" power then flinging a deathbolt? This seems to be the core issues with a lot of players of late. Perception.

    Sure it can be important. But when you are arguing that X is bad when it is the same as Y it is an issue.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    It is not the same. Changing classes by reworking it or rearranging talents means no matter what gear or ilvl or luck you have, it will feel the same through entire expansion..
    And yet Artifacts were not based on luck. They were fixed. No matter what gear or item level you had Artifacts were fixed for the entire expansion. Yes they added to them during the expansion but that is no different then adding new class abilities mid expansion. Same thing with Azerite. The traits stay fixed to a small degree (they change but the pool is fixed and relatively easy to always get). Corruption is the only difference but is hardly an issue in this regard because it is a small part of the expansion.

    Expansions have always given us borrowed power. If artifacts and Azerite are to be considered borrowed power then spell modifications, glyphs, talents, rotations, etc that have all changed have to be considered borrowed power as well. There is a lot of hand waving and eye covering going on here just to support arguments that the past was better than now.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    I have actually not said that. I know you have said it like 2 or 3 times, but you might confuse me with the other poster who did indeed right something about overpowered stuff. I am just saying how it is. It's powerful, just like legendaries was for example
    I know you haven't said that which is the problem. I'll say it again to see if you finally understand this time but You Cannot Compare An End Of Expansion Power Spike To A Start Of Tier Spike If you are going to look at Corruption with a cloak resistance of 125 then you have to compare it to Legion artifacts when they were 'Overpowered" Yes these give you too much borrowed power but thats the design. Its meant to make you too strong to nerf the content so you can do it before Shadowlands releases

    This is the big mistake you are doing. So extra skill levels you can sim at 120ish? So 15 below total corruption resistence? So you are saying that you think people, with extra skill will be below the total corruption? LMAO! I mean, come on, stop with the nonsense. Extra skill level players will play with 50-60 total corruption, and maybe even more. That is 180-190 corruption. That you even try to make sense to this is astonishing. People use like 70-80 total corruption already, just check the logs in Ny'alotha. People go with 1 max infinite stars and 1 max echoing void already and it does 20-25% of their damage. Now! Already! What do you think we can do when we can equip even more?
    Its amazing how you can continue to take comments out of context to misrepresent the argument. As I said if you want to compare like to like you would compare Non 'overpowered' legion artifacts with Corruption level resist 50 cloak (the max level without doing masks or N'zoth) that plus the essence gives you 60 resistance. so 99 gross corruption gives you 39 net or 120ish give you 60ish hey look thats the number you said high skill play will get you to glad you agree.


    Just look at this. 1 infinite star rank 3 does 23% of his damage. How much do you think it can do when he got 2, or even 3 of those when we get more corruption resistance when he don't have to deal with the shit that comes with 100+ corruption now? Same player use 1 corruption effect on the mythic version and that stars is 24.57% of his damage. You understand how powerful it is right now and how powerful it will be when we can equip 3 of them?
    What was the boss length, what boss was it, what was his rotation. you liked 3 cropped lines of a parse which makes me think the rest of the parse discredits the point or you would have just linked the parse.

    Why even bother showing you sims when you don't want to respect the time and effort someone do to actually prove something. While you come here and are excusing overpowered stuff in Legion, but in BfA there is no such thing when it's in front of you. Overpowered Artifact gave you what, 8% damage increase? While corruption do this at max ilvl:

    Oh wait, like, 36% of damage still? See that wooping 8.8% the extra item level do? see the 36k ish dps infinite stars rank 3 times 2, + 1 rank 1, + lash of the void do? So still 36%. 185 corruption, negated with 135 resistence, so 55 total corruption. Seeing the extra gear also helps with extra surviveability, it just becomes easier to have higher corruption. I am at 48 now, no problem whatsoever. It shows at 450 item level, but the lowest is my live character, the one above with higher item level, no corruption, and the one on top is max item level, and the corruption.


    Here it is with 3 times rank 3 echoing void:

    Bit less dps, but still 31%.
    So from your own sims even with an unrealistic level of corruption you've proven that total 'borrowed power is 36.5% of total dps. What happened to 70% dude. or even the 60% it was before

    Please correct me if I'm interpreting this wrong but as you said the top number is full BiS with max corruption and the middle number is that gear set with no corruption, essences or traits.

    You know, I was actually writing a big rant on how posters like you just wave off real proof when you get proven wrong. You know that traits like Echoing Void and Twilight Devastation scale with item level? Because its based on HP. So the longer we get into the expansion, the more damage they will do. Probably why they are getting nerfed a bit now, while Infinite Stars doesn't have that scaling, and it's only really good(aka op af) for single target, but mediocre elsewhere.
    You realize that Infinite Stars does scale with Item level right. It was changed to do so like day 2 of the patch. a 475 Infinite stars piece does more than and 440 one. If you are going to preach about the issues with a system you should probably know the details of said system.
    While you come here and are excusing overpowered stuff in Legion, but in BfA there is no such thing when it's in front of you.
    This is the line that I have the most issue with because it clearly shows that you are not reading the responses and rebuttals that you are receiving. You have an opinion and you refuse to change you mind or look at other possibilities. This was pretty clear from the start when you were 100% sure that Legion had less when you had no idea how much legion had by you own admission. But this line specifically irks me because you claim that I have a set opinion and will just wave off evidence that is put in front of me when I do have a set opinion AND ITS THE SAME AS YOURS. BFA's borrowed power is worse that Legions as I said in a previous post but it has nothing to do with the damage it gives you it has to do with the control that you have over that damage. I honestly don't know which gives you more I've never stated that Legion did or didn't give more I have in fact several times made it clear that I didn't have numbers for legion. I used the other guys numbers in a post because he had them and you didn't so I used the numbers in front of me.

    However the main issue isn't the numbers. Its that I can't increase Infinite Stars Damage with skill. I can't increase Echoing Void's damage with skill. You can make the argument that You can gain a benefit by wearing more pieces and outskilling the downsides but I still can't interact with the effects them selves I just get more passive effects. None of the expansion systems change the way I play my character.

    99% of my power in legion could have been borrowed and I still wouldn't have cared because the way the system was designed I got to interact with those power changes. When I got bracers I got to change my rotation, I got to play around bracer procs timings with RoP and Combustion, When I got Shard as frost I got to spen more time in Icy Veins Double ILing. I never player arcane but IIRC the kilt 100% changed your rotation it was a massive difference.

    The issue in BFA is that its all Passive.

    You need to stop getting defensive and acting like an attack on your argument is an attack on you. Your argument, especially initially, was very flawed you were asserting points with no evidence to support them. Its better now though I still think you are approaching it from a flawed viewpoint and not comparing like to like.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Tantaburs View Post
    You need to stop getting defensive and acting like an attack on your argument is an attack on you. Your argument, especially initially, was very flawed you were asserting points with no evidence to support them. Its better now though I still think you are approaching it from a flawed viewpoint and not comparing like to like.
    Yes, Infinite Stars scale with ilvl, but not from the actual HP like Echoing Void and Twilight Devastation. Infinite stars is also almost useless with more than one target. But on single target it does a huge amount of damage, and with 3 of them it does 36% of your damage, with and without the ilvl you asked for. But you just come with excuse after excuse. Because you are not objective. It's easy to read that you think it was worse in Legion because you openly says so. So you try your best to keep those rental power numbers in BfA as low as you can. But you talk about how it affects your gameplay. I have been discussing the power it gives. And are you saying that the sims are lying? Are you saying that actual logs lie? That part from warcraftlogs was made little because it made the point without using half a page on this forum just because you "don't believe this to be true". It is true, and if you go on the site and check rankings you know for yourself it is true. Because showing real sims and logs here isn't good enough for some reason.

    And no, I get annoyed that people like you get proven wrong with actual numbers then just find excuses for why they are not relevant. It's a joke. You can go and check warcraftlogs.com and do sims yourself. You'll understand that I was right the whole time, with proof from sims and without. Show some respect from someone that actually gives you real numbers and don't wave them off as not relevant.

    Rental gear in BfA is as powerful as rental gear in Legion, or even more. I'm gonna end it there and pretend this discussion didn't happen.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    You still haven't showed sim. Where is the profile? Without it you can spam images all you want and they are not going to be credible at fukken all.

    And now, funny thing

    DH with one infinite stars rank 3 = 91K
    DH with double infinite stars rank 3 = 102K
    DH without borrowed power = 41K

    Quick calcs = 59% of borrowed power still not close to 70%


    DH with triple infinite stars rank 3 = 118K (OH BABY ITS TRIPPLE)

    65% of borrowed power. Legion artifact alone gave you like 66%
    And no matter how you look at it, you need 3 items and 225 corruption, good luck with that.

    This time im even gonna include full report: https://suspicious-montalcini-33e6af.netlify.com/
    Yeah that link isn't suspicious at all. Nice job there. And nice coming with numbers without the proof, again.

    So once again, legendaries in legion was only 4%? You are joking right? Where are those numbers? So far you do math from numbers you pull out yourself. Where is the numbers behind the numbers you come out with?

    Did you do the disclaimer btw? Because it's needed. Someone that doesn't know how corruption gear works and how powerful it is AND how much you can use in the following months shouldn't do what you do. People gets misguided and will do lower damage.

    Check warcraftlogs.com btw. All the proof you need.
    - Everything that lives is designed to end. We are perpetually trapped in a never ending spiral of life and death. Is this a curse? Or some kind of punishment? I often think about the god who blessed us with this cryptic puzzle… and wonder if we’ll ever get the chance to kill him.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Harbour View Post
    Artifacts, Azerite, Essences, Corruption.

    All these powers came for an expansion and then got taken away with a few "player-favorite" traits implemented into the classes' core, and leaving us with the feeling of bland class depth.

    They replace one another, buy the feeling of "class complexity" but sometimes (especially in BFA and 8.2/8.3) they are so powerful, that it makes me feel like im playing not my class, but the rental power Blizzard gave me for two years.

    Can we just get, i dont know, the big pool of talents, PvE/PvP/Legendary/Essences/Corruptions combined, like, 80+ talents for each class that could be unlocked 1 per level?

    Then the player can choose the set of ~10 talents they pick from the unlocked pool. On the cap they will get full variety of PvP/PvE combinations they can use for PvE and PvP content.

    Someone would mention the balance, but its essentially the same pool we have now, but combined, without split on PvP and PvE. Tune the numbers and we will be fine. Class balance isnt perfect anyway.

    Just stop giving us toys and then taking them from us and replacing with another (as practice tells - way worse) toys.
    The game has gotten too big to continually add new abilities and talents. All u will end up is with a bunch of bloat.

    I think the “rental” abilities as u call it is fine. Blizzard just needs to find the right way to do it. Baseline classes need to be better. Fortunately shadowlands does look promising in this regard.

  12. #152
    Well, that rental power is getting nerfed anyway as Echoing is going to get nerf soon.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Yes, Infinite Stars scale with ilvl, but not from the actual HP like Echoing Void and Twilight Devastation. Infinite stars is also almost useless with more than one target. But on single target it does a huge amount of damage, and with 3 of them it does 36% of your damage, with and without the ilvl you asked for. But you just come with excuse after excuse. Because you are not objective. It's easy to read that you think it was worse in Legion because you openly says so. So you try your best to keep those rental power numbers in BfA as low as you can. But you talk about how it affects your gameplay. I have been discussing the power it gives. And are you saying that the sims are lying? Are you saying that actual logs lie? That part from warcraftlogs was made little because it made the point without using half a page on this forum just because you "don't believe this to be true". It is true, and if you go on the site and check rankings you know for yourself it is true. Because showing real sims and logs here isn't good enough for some reason.

    And no, I get annoyed that people like you get proven wrong with actual numbers then just find excuses for why they are not relevant. It's a joke. You can go and check warcraftlogs.com and do sims yourself. You'll understand that I was right the whole time, with proof from sims and without. Show some respect from someone that actually gives you real numbers and don't wave them off as not relevant.

    Rental gear in BfA is as powerful as rental gear in Legion, or even more. I'm gonna end it there and pretend this discussion didn't happen.
    Again You haven't proven anything. You literally CANNOT prove your point without sourcing information on how much damage Legion gave which you haven't done. You can prove how much damage BfA has added but with no comparison you cannot say it was more or less

    Im not saying your Sims Lie Im saying your sims are set up in specific ways. Still to this point you have not provided a single sim comparison of Full BiS DPS with and Without added power.

    You have shown a Sim with Middling gear and over BiS corruption, You have shown a sim with BiD gear and No corruption but still having traits and Essences. You haven't provided a whole number yet.

    I take issue with you linking a cropped photo of a parse because you have posting misleading information in the past. You have established a history of not showing the full picture.

    a single parse also doesn't prove anything BTW outliers exist thats why sims are run through 10's of thousands of iterations in order to minimize variance and why sims are a better metric to compare the effect of gear than parses are.

    Without the linked parse (which you still haven't provided it doesn't take up half a page its a link) we can't extrapolate anything. We don't know what he's attacking how optimal his rotation is. For all we know he didn't push half his buttons.

    You say that its obvious that I think Legion added more power despite me saying MULTIPLE times that I don't I have never asserted that one does more than the other if I have please show me where I did. You can make assumptions from what I'm saying but that not the same as me saying things.

    Again you say im not objective. Please show me evidence of me being subjective. I have provided, what I believe to be, fair rational for why I've made the claims and chosen the comparison points that I have and have, wherever possible, used math to back up my estimations.

    You say that I am ignoring evidence that is in front of my face while IN THE SAME POST claiming that a simulation report is fraudulent with no evidence that it is.

    You say lets use warcraft logs as all the evidence you need. So lets.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=4

    This is a parse for the rank one fight on Shad'har, the closest thing to a target dummy in Nya'lotha

    Total DPS is 88k
    Infinite Stars is 25k
    Lethal Stikes is 1.5k.
    So we have 26.5k clearly Identifiable dps from 'renta gear' This rest we kinda have to extrapolate
    The mage has 3x blaster master traits on one 460 and two 475 pieces we can take the dps gains from Blood mallet to get ~9k dps from blaster master
    Lucid Dreams is averaged at 13kdps
    2 overwhelming Power traits is ~4500
    One elemental whirl is 900
    One Wildfire trait is 2500
    One Firemind is 1700
    The other two minor are worth ~6k

    This gets you to a total of 55.1k Damage from 'rental gear'

    55.1/88 gets you 62.5% which isn't the 70% number thrown around a few times but is fairly close. Its worth noting when looking at this comparison that the sim numbers assume near perfect play which isn't realistic as there will be movement on the fight so i'd estimate it closer to 60% but those are the best number I can come up with. Rank one Parses are also always going to be outliers in data sets and this set up has 55 corruption which is above a comfortable limit (for the record Gingi in method opted to run 45 instead of 55 in order to not deal with the extra corruption though he likely would have run 55 with this set up)

    So using what you say is Proof in multiple places; Sims, provided by you, and warcraft logs parses (I could do more but it took be ~ 15 minutes to add up one and I'm lazy) It seems pretty Objectively clear that Legion provided more of a damage boost to your character as shown by the sims posted earlier with full profiles which Allowed me to verify that his numbers were accurate.

    Is that objective enough for you?

  14. #154
    Think about the synergy of the artifact weapons, azerite gear, legion legendaries, raid set bonuses etc. It would be a nightmare to balance, and make sure they aren't introducing a hundred ways of making broken builds.
    Mother pus bucket!

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Harbour View Post
    Artifacts, Azerite, Essences, Corruption.

    All these powers came for an expansion and then got taken away with a few "player-favorite" traits implemented into the classes' core, and leaving us with the feeling of bland class depth.

    They replace one another, buy the feeling of "class complexity" but sometimes (especially in BFA and 8.2/8.3) they are so powerful, that it makes me feel like im playing not my class, but the rental power Blizzard gave me for two years.

    Can we just get, i dont know, the big pool of talents, PvE/PvP/Legendary/Essences/Corruptions combined, like, 80+ talents for each class that could be unlocked 1 per level?

    Then the player can choose the set of ~10 talents they pick from the unlocked pool. On the cap they will get full variety of PvP/PvE combinations they can use for PvE and PvP content.

    Someone would mention the balance, but its essentially the same pool we have now, but combined, without split on PvP and PvE. Tune the numbers and we will be fine. Class balance isnt perfect anyway.

    Just stop giving us toys and then taking them from us and replacing with another (as practice tells - way worse) toys.
    But, this is nothing new? This has been the case since the beginning. Case in point, Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros. This mace, there was NOTHING like this mace!!!
    It was big. It had a whopping 80 DPS! It was slow. It hit like a truck. It was legendary....! https://classic.wowhead.com/item=171...nd-of-ragnaros

    It got basically replaced the next tier with Ashkandi, Greatsword of the Brotherhood. https://classic.wowhead.com/item=193...he-brotherhood

    This is within the next tier. Hello! Replaced by a mere epic weapon.
    Sure, Thuderfury was a weapon of such amazing threat capabilities it remained viable a good while into TBC but that's quite a freak occurance.
    Sulfuras wasn't even good by the time AQ40 came around and even less so in Naxxramas where some of the weapons there leave it in the dust.

    So there you have your MS/2H fury warrior decked out in the best gear obtainable during MC with the raghammer etc only to be just, well geared when the next few tiers drop.

    And TBC? TBC greens were better than most of the Vanilla raidgear was. Made it obsolete....

    So...what, was your point exactly?
    "DIE, INSECT!" - words to live by

  16. #156
    Elemental Lord Lahis's Avatar
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    Never.

    Adding permanent abilities and talents would sooner or later lead into another round of pruning and we know how well that went the last time. Tying abilities into systems that last only for one expansion mean they don't need to consider the future when doing them.

  17. #157
    Lol at how people are so intensely debating if it's 30 or 60%.
    Does not matter! What matters is the progression gets taken away at the end of the expansions, wich makes it feel pointless.

  18. #158
    I am Murloc!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Never.

    Adding permanent abilities and talents would sooner or later lead into another round of pruning and we know how well that went the last time. Tying abilities into systems that last only for one expansion mean they don't need to consider the future when doing them.
    All this means is that we're getting ability purge every expansion. I don't see how this is any better.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Yeah that link isn't suspicious at all. Nice job there. And nice coming with numbers without the proof, again.

    So once again, legendaries in legion was only 4%? You are joking right? Where are those numbers? So far you do math from numbers you pull out yourself. Where is the numbers behind the numbers you come out with?

    Did you do the disclaimer btw? Because it's needed. Someone that doesn't know how corruption gear works and how powerful it is AND how much you can use in the following months shouldn't do what you do. People gets misguided and will do lower damage.

    Check warcraftlogs.com btw. All the proof you need.
    The link is a personal randomly generated subdomain of a free html hosting platform of https://www.netlify.com/
    But it looks like it has been removed wtf.
    No matter: https://www.sendspace.com/file/8e31do

    And even so, I pasted profiles, ready to be simmed, go ahead and try yourself. Just don't tell me you don't know how to add/remove corruption.

    You can also sim legion part yourself, I provided profiles, check them, don't try to undermine math.

  20. #160
    Fluffy Kitten Aurora's Avatar
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    Never, it's modular design that makes it simple and easy to replace those parts each expansion and appear as "new" content. It saves on time, cost and effort from the developer and the player will accept it anyway. It's the Activision way.

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