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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    That's very interesting and all but there's a difference between senseless kill quests and creating a narrative in your game that frames a genocide as a necessary evil or even morally neutral (because of the 'right motivations' yadda yadda). It's just incredibly tone deaf and I don't really understand why out of all the possible stories you would choose to tell that one.
    Each to their own I guess. I understand people get upset about it, I just don't get why. It's victimless storytelling.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2020-02-06 at 02:43 PM.

  2. #42
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Each to their own I guess. I understand people get upset about it, I just don't get why. It's a victimless storytelling.
    Probably because Genocide is a pretty fucking big deal no matter what.
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  3. #43
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    Which is why it would be very toxic if Blizzard dared push the idea that the Burning of Teldrassil (genocide) was done "for the greater good". Not even the Starcraft writing team did this, in fact Kerrigan accepts to carry the burden of Xel'naga precisely to atone for the countless innocent lives she's killed.
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  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Probably because Genocide is a pretty fucking big deal no matter what.
    So is killing... it's a form of killing in fact. A big point of games and story tellings in all sorts of media is to tell stories we don't want to happen in real life.

    Lots of exclamations, very little explanations.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    Yogg Saron is dead and he isn't a literal "God of Death". Don't take old god boss voicelines meant to belittle the player and instill fear literally and come up with connections that aren't there.
    Why does everyone keep saying "He's dead" like that ends the discussion? Yes, he's dead. And we're literally going to the land of the dead this expansion. It's not a hard concept to grasp.

    As for his voicelines, that's like saying we shouldn't have taken the Puzzle Box seriously about Ny'alotha. Except now it's the final raid of BfA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MatadorMedia View Post
    The spirit of Yogg-Saron would've returned to Nya'lotha when he died, just like how demons go to the Twisting Nether when they die. The Shadowlands is for us mortals.
    So, by that logic, N'Zoth returned to Ny'alotha when killed him? That doesn't make any sense and isn't mentioned anywhere in the lore. In fact, the devs have been cagey about what happens to the Old Gods after death.
    Last edited by AbalDarkwind; 2020-02-06 at 03:15 PM.
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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Each to their own I guess. I understand people get upset about it, I just don't get why. It's victimless storytelling.
    Whether intended or not, stories always carry with them ideas that usually reflect upon certain ideological or moral frameworks. If you decide to tell a story in which committing a genocide is ennobled through some made up necessity and therefor displayed as a logical and morally justified action, then what kind of morals and ideas does that story promote?
    Look, I'm not saying that this would have some demonstrably negative effect on whoever watches that story unfold and Blizzard's writing team is free to do whatever they want but at the same time you have to ask yourself: who are they writing this for? Who would find such a narrative relatable or valuable on any level?

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Whether intended or not, stories always carry with them ideas that usually reflect upon certain ideological or moral frameworks. If you decide to tell a story in which committing a genocide is ennobled through some made up necessity and therefor displayed as a logical and morally justified action, then what kind of morals and ideas does that story promote?
    That sometimes bad deeds are done for good reasons? It all depends on how it's told... take note I don't argue if it's good storytelling or not. But saying that just because it's genocide then suddenly context don't matter, context is everything. We do that with killings, we do that with literally all other topics.
    If Sylv gets redeemed you think the point of the story is to say "WOO GENOCIDES ARE GOOD"... hardly. Doing something for greater good doesn't mean the action isn't bad.

    Look, I'm not saying that this would have some demonstrably negative effect on whoever watches that story unfold and Blizzard's writing team is free to do whatever they want but at the same time you have to ask yourself: who are they writing this for? Who would find such a narrative relatable or valuable on any level?
    Desperation and good intentions is a common theme across all forms of media.It seems like all you see is genocide and not a narrative tool to drive home another point, just like with every other tool which isn't allowed or celebrated in the real world.

    I can't relate to murder, not in the least... it's everywhere in media though. Can i find murder stories relatable? Absolutely, because the bigger picture is rarely about the specific action of killing someone and instead of the emotions revolving around it. Frankly, reason why murder and death is used so much is because it's a tool that's easily used to show how severe or big someones emotion is. It magnifies it.

    So why is genocide exempt from this? To me the answer is the same as with any other horrible action we accept in media.

    Once again, I'm not saying it will be good story telling or that blizzard will pull it off and frankly I stopped caring about the story a long time ago.

  8. #48
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Once again, I'm not saying it will be good story telling or that blizzard will pull it off and frankly I stopped caring about the story a long time ago.
    If you stopped caring why would you even enter a thread like this?


    So, by that logic, N'Zoth returned to Ny'alotha when killed him? That doesn't make any sense and isn't mentioned anywhere in the lore. In fact, the devs have been cagey about what happens to the Old Gods after death.
    It may not be Ny'alotha but I can bet they aren't gone for good, not as easy as the rest of us.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbalDarkwind View Post
    I think it's hard to argue that Sylvanas deserved this fate at this point in her career.
    It's really not, she's been a baddie since WC3TFT, even back in vanilla WoW, quests you can see right now on Classic, she ordered the creation of the Blight, with the intent being "plaguing an entire world", and it's use being on "the rest of Azeroth"...

    She also authorized testing this in development chemical weapon on captured civilians.

    She openly fought the Lich King
    For her own revenge, not to protect the rest of the world... And she pursued that revenge regardless of how many bodies of innocents and people she claimed to care for (the forsaken, her subjects) she had to trample to get there.

    hand in the Battle of the Wrathgate
    Was just icing on the cake of her villainy.


    I'd argue this is evidence that the mechanism of Death broke in Wrath as we know Kael'thas, who died late-TBC, went to Revendreath while Illidan went to Helheim. There are only two events that could have caused this in Wrath: the death of Yogg-Saron or the death of Arthas.
    Unfortunately for your theory, this is incorrect, as Cairne Bloodhoof died shortly before Cataclysm started and he's not in the Maw, as shown by our being able to commune with and interact with his spirit during the Tauren heritage armor questline.
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  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    It's really not, she's been a baddie since WC3TFT, even back in vanilla WoW, quests you can see right now on Classic, she ordered the creation of the Blight, with the intent being "plaguing an entire world", and it's use being on "the rest of Azeroth"...

    She also authorized testing this in development chemical weapon on captured civilians.

    For her own revenge, not to protect the rest of the world... And she pursued that revenge regardless of how many bodies of innocents and people she claimed to care for (the forsaken, her subjects) she had to trample to get there.

    Was just icing on the cake of her villainy.
    And Kael'thas sold out the world to the Burning Legion and went to Revendreth, not the Maw. Doing villainous things doesn't mean you go to the Maw. Being irredemable is what sends you to the Maw. I find it hard to believe that Sylvanas was irredeemable (At the time; now is more debatable) but Kael'thas can be redeemed.

    Unfortunately for your theory, this is incorrect, as Cairne Bloodhoof died shortly before Cataclysm started and he's not in the Maw, as shown by our being able to commune with and interact with his spirit during the Tauren heritage armor questline.
    That's fair, and it does track with other comments saying the mechanism of death broke during Legion rather than in Wrath. As an alternative, perhaps the Jailer broke the mechanism of death at the beginning of Legion in order to combat an increasingly more powerful Yogg by manipulating Vol'jin at the time of his death to make Sylvanas Warchief.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    It may not be Ny'alotha but I can bet they aren't gone for good, not as easy as the rest of us.
    I agree, which is why I made the theory in the first place. My theory is that Yogg entered the Shadowlands in a way similar to him entering the Emerald Dream. If I had to guess, it was through ICC being made of his living blood, and it being a direct mirror of Torghast.
    Last edited by AbalDarkwind; 2020-02-06 at 07:05 PM.
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbalDarkwind View Post
    And Kael'thas sold out the world to the Burning Legion and went to Revendreth, not the Maw. Doing villainous things doesn't mean you go to the Maw. Being irredemable is what sends you to the Maw. I find it hard to believe that Sylvanas is irredeemable but Kael'thas can be redeemed.



    That's fair, and it does track with other comments saying the mechanism of death broke during Legion rather than in Wrath.
    Kael'thas wanted to save his people, he was just misguided. Sylvanas has always been a bitch who only cared about revenge. Her people were just tools to get her revenge.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    That sometimes bad deeds are done for good reasons? It all depends on how it's told... take note I don't argue if it's good storytelling or not. But saying that just because it's genocide then suddenly context don't matter, context is everything. We do that with killings, we do that with literally all other topics.
    If Sylv gets redeemed you think the point of the story is to say "WOO GENOCIDES ARE GOOD"... hardly. Doing something for greater good doesn't mean the action isn't bad.



    Desperation and good intentions is a common theme across all forms of media.It seems like all you see is genocide and not a narrative tool to drive home another point, just like with every other tool which isn't allowed or celebrated in the real world.

    I can't relate to murder, not in the least... it's everywhere in media though. Can i find murder stories relatable? Absolutely, because the bigger picture is rarely about the specific action of killing someone and instead of the emotions revolving around it. Frankly, reason why murder and death is used so much is because it's a tool that's easily used to show how severe or big someones emotion is. It magnifies it.

    So why is genocide exempt from this? To me the answer is the same as with any other horrible action we accept in media.

    Once again, I'm not saying it will be good story telling or that blizzard will pull it off and frankly I stopped caring about the story a long time ago.
    Murder is usually not really portrayed as morally justified in stories. Stories that involve murder usually explore the reasoning behind that action, what led to person A murdering person B etc. but it's really rare that it's actually depicted as the "right" course of action.
    With killing it's a bit different because people find it way easier to justify killing people e.g. in self-defense, as an act of war which of course makes sense but even then, there's a point to be made about the glorification of violence that is often involved in showing the act of killing.

    With genocide it's totally different. Most people can't even conceive a good enough reason that would justify something like a genocide. Again, this is not about not depicting a genocide or telling a story about it, it's about telling the story in a way that makes genocide the only "right" course of action.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    That is an intersting theory, though I despise the idea of Sylvanas secretly having good intentions, the way you tied Shadowlands with WotLK is good. However, they already confirmed at Blizzcon that:

    1) They are not continuing the Sylvanas Loyalist questline, she does not care about her former Loyalists.

    2) The engine of Death broke around the time of Legion, not WotLK. Sylvanas going to the Maw is what the Arbiter wanted. Already in Classic she was doing very evil things like experimenting on the living or waging war on humans, whom she called an "infestation".

    Also I would argue that thousands of ghostly night elf civilians wouldn't really be of much use against an Old God.... just saying. So if Sylvanas wants an army to oppose Yogg-Saron, she might want to rethink her strategy.
    Not the jailer??

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbalDarkwind View Post
    And Kael'thas sold out the world to the Burning Legion and went to Revendreth, not the Maw. Doing villainous things doesn't mean you go to the Maw. Being irredemable is what sends you to the Maw. I find it hard to believe that Sylvanas is irredeemable but Kael'thas can be redeemed.
    Depends entirely why they did what they did. Maybe Kael thought he was doing the right thing for whatever reason, Kael was trying to save his people (doing the wrong thing for the right reasons)... Sylvanas didn't, even admitted she didn't care what happened to the world from that point on in Edge of Night, all she cared about was revenge, she wasn't trying to protect or save anything, she just wanted to kill Arthas and didn't care how many others she got killed along the way.
    Last edited by Schattenlied; 2020-02-06 at 07:07 PM.
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    Not the jailer??
    No. The Arbiter is the one who sends souls to their destined plane in the Shadowlands after reading all aspects of their souls. So the Arbiter read Sylvanas' soul and deemed she belonged in the Maw.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    No. The Arbiter is the one who sends souls to their destined plane in the Shadowlands after reading all aspects of their souls. So the Arbiter read Sylvanas' soul and deemed she belonged in the Maw.
    Right sorry i entirely forgot about her death in edge of night. I thought you meant in the Shadowlands feature trailer and thought blizzard had given some info on the arbiter about wanting her to break the viel or something.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    Right sorry i entirely forgot about her death in edge of night. I thought you meant in the Shadowlands feature trailer and thought blizzard had given some info on the arbiter about wanting her to break the viel or something.
    Ah No, No, that's the opposite of what the Arbiter wants. She'll be our main ally against the Jailer.
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  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    Kael'thas wanted to save his people, he was just misguided. Sylvanas has always been a bitch who only cared about revenge. Her people were just tools to get her revenge.
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Depends entirely why they did what they did. Maybe Kael thought he was doing the right thing for whatever reason, Kael was trying to save his people (doing the wrong thing for the right reasons)... Sylvanas didn't, even admitted she didn't care what happened to the world from that point on in Edge of Night, all she cared about was revenge, she wasn't trying to protect or save anything, she just wanted to kill Arthas and didn't care how many others she got killed along the way.
    Not true. Sylvanas, even as late as Stormheim in Legion, tried to enslave Eyir to create more Forsaken, long after she got her revenge on Arthas. She even says she wanted to spare the Forsaken their fate in Legion and in BfA. And at the end of the Loyalist questline, she essentially says they're on the right side of history. Why would she care and what is her motive if that's the case?
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  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    Ah No, No, that's the opposite of what the Arbiter wants. She'll be our main ally against the Jailer.
    That is what i assumed why i got real confused when i misunderstood your post :P

    I do reckon with blizzards recent push of making traditional good forces like the light more grey i reckon the Arbiter will become an antagonist during patch content.

  20. #60
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbalDarkwind View Post
    Not true. Sylvanas, even as late as Stormheim in Legion, tried to enslave Eyir to create more Forsaken
    For her own ends, not out of care for others... She wants an immortal army so she can kill even more people.

    long after she got her revenge on Arthas
    Yes, because she's working for the Jailor now.
    She even says she wanted to spare the Forsaken their fate in Legion and in BfA.
    What she says to others and what she does for herself are two very different things. She also says that she only thinks of her subjects as arrows in a quiver, meaning tools to be used and discarded.


    And at the end of the Loyalist questline, she essentially says they're on the right side of history. Why would she care and what is her motive if that's the case?
    A lie to keep loyalty of her most efficient killer, and probly the only person on Azeroth that could be a legitimate threat to her if they found out the truth.
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