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  1. #801
    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    Can't wait for naxx to also get blown over so that this "but it's 1.12" can go away.

    Sure if it wasn't 1.12 it would take slightly longer but it would just be a minor inconvenince. The real reasons are the knowledge and the raids themselves were not that hard to begin with.
    nah, 1.12 plays a major role, that and servers doesnt have as high altency combined with ppl doesnt play on 0.5mbit adsl anymore wich probobly amounts for around 15%-25% more dps compared to vanilla.
    None of us really changes over time. We only become more fully what we are.

  2. #802
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    Only 81 guilds actually cleared Naxxramas before the 2.0 Burning Crusade pre-patch so 14 years ago it was definitely considered difficult.
    Not really. It's just that if you didn't start raiding early on you didn't have a chance to get through Naxxramas. You first had to get gear from MC for 40-60 people in order to do BWL, then you had to get gear from BWL to do AQ and then you had to get gear from AQ to do Naxx. Gearing up an entire raid roster took a very long time.

    It was a time gate of epic proportions. If you started late you could just forget about Naxx, of course you didn't end up knowing that until TBC was released and you had just cleared AQ.

  3. #803
    Elemental Lord Tekkommo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    Only 81 guilds actually cleared Naxxramas before the 2.0 Burning Crusade pre-patch so 14 years ago it was definitely considered difficult.

    With knowledge of how it works and modern knowledge of how to min-max it won't be too bad, but doing bosses like Loatheb and Kel'Thuzad without flasks and world buffs won't be easy at all.
    Was a bit more than 81 https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/..._cleared_naxx/

    World buffs are not important for Naxx, if you're progressing as a normal guild you'll die and lose them. When Naxx was released on the last good private servers, it was tuned higher and world buffs were turned off for the first week or 2. Consumes will be needed.

    Would actually be really cool if one of the guilds who are going to breeze through it, did their first run with zero world buffs and consumes. We all know that won't happen though.
    Last edited by Tekkommo; 2020-02-20 at 04:35 PM.

  4. #804
    Congrats APES! Pretty crazy stuff honestly.

  5. #805
    Quote Originally Posted by Millyraynge View Post
    wow classic world first has nothing to do with wow world first. In classic the rules/circumstances for the world first raids are quite different.
    ähm...no the raids are EXACTLY the same and 15 years old...

  6. #806
    Naxx will go down sometimes around 1hr and 20 mins.

    Which is the ball park it's been going down on p-servers.

  7. #807
    Quote Originally Posted by tmamass View Post
    ähm...no the raids are EXACTLY the same and 15 years old...
    Exactly? 16 debuffs, 1.12 talents, all strats known, bugs fixed, raid comps different, gear updated. But you dont see anything different?

  8. #808
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Exactly? 16 debuffs, 1.12 talents, all strats known, bugs fixed, raid comps different, gear updated. But you dont see anything different?
    nothing of those change the LAUGHABLE "difficulty" of the raid.

  9. #809
    Quote Originally Posted by tmamass View Post
    nothing of those change the LAUGHABLE "difficulty" of the raid.
    But they are a change right? So classic is not exactly vanilla. So it's a different race. You dont have to enjoy it but you dont have to be ignorant about it.

  10. #810
    Quote Originally Posted by collax View Post
    MC = almost lfr difficulty
    BWL = normal
    AQ40 = hc
    Naxx = mythic
    What will you people say when Naxx will fall in no more than 2 hours after it opens?

    Classic raiding was never hard. Never.

  11. #811
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sentynel View Post
    What will you people say when Naxx will fall in no more than 2 hours after it opens?

    Classic raiding was never hard. Never.
    Classic raiding was hard when it was current. It's laughably easy now. Sort of like addition is hard when you're first introduced to it, but by the time you get to calculus it's a breeze.
    Did you think we had forgotten? Did you think we had forgiven? Behold, now, the terrible vengeance of the Forsaken!

  12. #812
    Quote Originally Posted by Sentynel View Post
    What will you people say when Naxx will fall in no more than 2 hours after it opens?

    Classic raiding was never hard. Never.
    Even if Naxxramas was very hard it would 'fall' in two hours because world buffs and consumables are utterly broken in classic and tons of guilds have spent literally years farming this content on private servers.

    It's not like it's new content that people don't have practice with.

    It'll be a fun experience for your average guild not stacking world buffs and flasking the whole raid.
    Last edited by Nitros14; 2020-02-27 at 10:36 PM.

  13. #813
    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Watching videos is very different from executing the fight. There are also way more things going on in raid fights now than back then so to say classic raid fights are harder than current ones and some even on heroic level is truly laughable.

    You're essentially going "eh I watched some vids and it looks easy" and on top of it admitting you haven't done any.
    Yeah you’re exactly right. Ironically it’s one reason I quit retail and am now playing Classic, things are simpler and don’t require near as much as retail did to stay competitive as a DPS. Mythic raiding of course, but yeah normal is still hard on release. The amount of shit you have to do to keep up got to be too much for me, especially all of the stuff outside of the game to keep up with. Shitload of Weak Auras that we’re mandatory at cutting edge mythic.

    Tbf I now play with a lot of people that haven’t raided in years and they are the same; really no idea how complex high level raiding is now.

    If you like that sort of thing there’s no better time to play retail. Beware of burnout though.

  14. #814
    Quote Originally Posted by tmamass View Post
    ähm...no the raids are EXACTLY the same and 15 years old...
    For me vanilla world first and classic world first are totally different. Among many reasons the availability of information is the biggest point that changes everything.

    The set of rules has changed. Every player has complete and easily accessible knowledge about WoW Classic. Every mechanism, every synergy, every encounter is known. Therefore other skills are required to prove than those from Vanilla WoW or a progress oriented world first.

    There are hundreds of dedicated guilds, all of which are extremely prepared and have experience with private servers. But still there are half a handful of guilds that are miles better than the rest despite the same conditions. They show other skills that are more important for a classic world first than for a progress oriented world first.

  15. #815
    Quote Originally Posted by Sentynel View Post
    What will you people say when Naxx will fall in no more than 2 hours after it opens?
    Is Method still wiping for hours to clear the latest retail raid or are they facerolling it in 2 hours by now ? And yet, was said raid hard or not when it was released ?

    Here is the answer to your stupid question. Not that it wasn't already given hundred of times and you just chose to ignore it.

  16. #816
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Is Method still wiping for hours to clear the latest retail raid or are they facerolling it in 2 hours by now ? And yet, was said raid hard or not when it was released ?

    Here is the answer to your stupid question. Not that it wasn't already given hundred of times and you just chose to ignore it.
    Its not like they facerolled it with EP gear

  17. #817
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Is Method still wiping for hours to clear the latest retail raid or are they facerolling it in 2 hours by now ? And yet, was said raid hard or not when it was released ?

    Here is the answer to your stupid question. Not that it wasn't already given hundred of times and you just chose to ignore it.
    The thing your side doesn't understand is the monumental tuning difference between retail and classic.

    If you reset retail to the point where Ny'alotha came out, it wouldn't get cleared much faster even with the knowledge players have now. This is because Ny'alotha is tuned very tightly and item level and just general power creep increases much faster in retail than in vanilla/classic.

    Vael can be killed in under 30 seconds with no gear from BWL. Vael progression kills, judging by videos on youtube like this one, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xlfiv8YrigY can last up to 3 and a half minutes.

    That means better game knowledge led to the kill time being cut down to 1/7th of what it originally was. The first N'zoth kill was about 13 minutes. Even with Ny'alotha gear you will NOT see N'zoth dying in just under 2 minutes. And you would never, even if you had a super computer working the problem for an infinite amount of time, be able to kill N'zoth in less than 2 minutes with Eternal Palace gear. Hell, less than 11 minutes is probably completely impossible without Ny'alotha gear.

    And before you get angry at me for comparing the second boss vs an end boss, Nefarian is not a dps check, and there is technically no reason you can't just drag out the fight and kill him very slowly, so it's not even that useful to conceptualize Nefarian in terms of how long he takes. And there's also no retail fight to compare Nefarian to, because every fight on retail is a massive dps check.

    Keep in mind also, that the item level scaling on retail is crazy. One tier in retail is about equivalent in terms of item level to going from dungeon blues to full Naxx gear. And that's adjusting for relative values as well, not taking absolute values to make retail gear seem better than it is.

    Compare this to Lich King private servers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9xI8blM0Go

    That is a buffed version of LK with about 10% more health. This is a good comparison because vanilla private servers also had buffed mobs compared to original vanilla and classic. That kill takes around 17 minutes. Apes killing Vael on private servers is just a bit above 30 seconds. https://youtu.be/yucB9jPrQl4?t=394

    And Lich King is still considerably easier than retail raiding. You will not however see thousands of heroic Lich King kills on the first week he is available if Blizzard ever does classic LK servers.

    It's simply that by ever objectively measurable standard, vanilla/classic had the easiest raids in the history of wow. It just got harder and harder every expansion until the bosses were so difficult they were teetering on impossible with the likes of Kil'jaeden in ToS.

  18. #818
    Quote Originally Posted by OrcsRLame View Post
    The thing your side doesn't understand is the monumental tuning difference between retail and classic.
    On the contrary, I perfectly understand them and that's why I can point where the comparisons fail.
    - Unnerfed initial version vs nerfed and patched version.
    - Highest difficulty vs medium difficulty (mythic difficulty shouldn't even be compared to anything below Naxx - and I'm not saying Naxx will be as hard as the hardest mythic bosses, just that it's nonsensical to compare the highest difficulty tier with anything but another highest difficulty tier, it simply has no meaning).
    - Execution vs preparation.
    And so on.

    I agree with many of your points (that item power inflation is much bigger today, so the difficulty between "no gear" and "geared" is vastly different ; that Blizzard tuned fights tighter and tighter with the top guilds being more and more hardcore), heck I even somewhat agree with your reasoning in general (though you still ignore several aspects, like more powerful classes and items and unpatched/unnerfed content and so on, and you take for granted that LK on a pserver works the same as on retail). I'm just pointing at the usual stupid strawmen that sprout everywhere.
    It's simply that by ever objectively measurable standard, vanilla/classic had the easiest raids in the history of wow.
    They certainly hadn't the easiest raids when it came to roster management or consumable farm
    Notice that I don't (and I've never) pretend that Classic/Vanilla had the hardest raids. As I said, I just poke holes at the idiocy displayed by so many shitposters, who make absurd comparisons or goes complete retard with exagerated claims (like BWL being easier than LFR).
    Last edited by Akka; 2020-02-29 at 02:15 PM.

  19. #819
    Quote Originally Posted by Dasmerte View Post
    Congrats APES! Pretty crazy stuff honestly.
    Congrats for coming in second?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tennisace View Post
    In other countries like Canada the population has chosen to believe in hope, peace and tolerance. This we can see from the election of the Honourable Justin Trudeau who stood against the politics of hate and divisiveness.

  20. #820
    Quote Originally Posted by Shibito View Post
    Congrats for coming in second?
    third actually
    "I feel bad for Limit , they put in so many hours only to come in second place" - Methodjosh

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