BWL world first progression thread

[Tekkommo]

Only 81 guilds actually cleared Naxxramas before the 2.0 Burning Crusade pre-patch so 14 years ago it was definitely considered difficult.

With knowledge of how it works and modern knowledge of how to min-max it won't be too bad, but doing bosses like Loatheb and Kel'Thuzad without flasks and world buffs won't be easy at all.

Was a bit more than 81 https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/..._cleared_naxx/

World buffs are not important for Naxx, if you're progressing as a normal guild you'll die and lose them. When Naxx was released on the last good private servers, it was tuned higher and world buffs were turned off for the first week or 2. Consumes will be needed.

Would actually be really cool if one of the guilds who are going to breeze through it, did their first run with zero world buffs and consumes. We all know that won't happen though.

[Dasmerte]

Congrats APES! Pretty crazy stuff honestly.

[tmamass]

wow classic world first has nothing to do with wow world first. In classic the rules/circumstances for the world first raids are quite different.

ähm...no the raids are EXACTLY the same and 15 years old...

[Monster Hunter]

Naxx will go down sometimes around 1hr and 20 mins.

Which is the ball park it's been going down on p-servers.

[ellieg]

ähm...no the raids are EXACTLY the same and 15 years old...

Exactly? 16 debuffs, 1.12 talents, all strats known, bugs fixed, raid comps different, gear updated. But you dont see anything different?

[tmamass]

Exactly? 16 debuffs, 1.12 talents, all strats known, bugs fixed, raid comps different, gear updated. But you dont see anything different?

nothing of those change the LAUGHABLE "difficulty" of the raid.

[ellieg]

nothing of those change the LAUGHABLE "difficulty" of the raid.

But they are a change right? So classic is not exactly vanilla. So it's a different race. You dont have to enjoy it but you dont have to be ignorant about it.

[Sentynel]

MC = almost lfr difficulty
BWL = normal
AQ40 = hc
Naxx = mythic

What will you people say when Naxx will fall in no more than 2 hours after it opens?

Classic raiding was never hard. Never.

[Jimson]

What will you people say when Naxx will fall in no more than 2 hours after it opens?

Classic raiding was never hard. Never.

Classic raiding was hard when it was current. It's laughably easy now. Sort of like addition is hard when you're first introduced to it, but by the time you get to calculus it's a breeze.

[Nitros14]

What will you people say when Naxx will fall in no more than 2 hours after it opens?

Classic raiding was never hard. Never.

Even if Naxxramas was very hard it would 'fall' in two hours because world buffs and consumables are utterly broken in classic and tons of guilds have spent literally years farming this content on private servers.

It's not like it's new content that people don't have practice with.

It'll be a fun experience for your average guild not stacking world buffs and flasking the whole raid.

[Michh]

Watching videos is very different from executing the fight. There are also way more things going on in raid fights now than back then so to say classic raid fights are harder than current ones and some even on heroic level is truly laughable.

You're essentially going "eh I watched some vids and it looks easy" and on top of it admitting you haven't done any.

Yeah you’re exactly right. Ironically it’s one reason I quit retail and am now playing Classic, things are simpler and don’t require near as much as retail did to stay competitive as a DPS. Mythic raiding of course, but yeah normal is still hard on release. The amount of shit you have to do to keep up got to be too much for me, especially all of the stuff outside of the game to keep up with. Shitload of Weak Auras that we’re mandatory at cutting edge mythic.

Tbf I now play with a lot of people that haven’t raided in years and they are the same; really no idea how complex high level raiding is now.

If you like that sort of thing there’s no better time to play retail. Beware of burnout though.

[Millyraynge]

ähm...no the raids are EXACTLY the same and 15 years old...

For me vanilla world first and classic world first are totally different. Among many reasons the availability of information is the biggest point that changes everything.

The set of rules has changed. Every player has complete and easily accessible knowledge about WoW Classic. Every mechanism, every synergy, every encounter is known. Therefore other skills are required to prove than those from Vanilla WoW or a progress oriented world first.

There are hundreds of dedicated guilds, all of which are extremely prepared and have experience with private servers. But still there are half a handful of guilds that are miles better than the rest despite the same conditions. They show other skills that are more important for a classic world first than for a progress oriented world first.

[Akka]

What will you people say when Naxx will fall in no more than 2 hours after it opens?

Is Method still wiping for hours to clear the latest retail raid or are they facerolling it in 2 hours by now ? And yet, was said raid hard or not when it was released ?

Here is the answer to your stupid question. Not that it wasn't already given hundred of times and you just chose to ignore it.

[Ghostile]

Is Method still wiping for hours to clear the latest retail raid or are they facerolling it in 2 hours by now ? And yet, was said raid hard or not when it was released ?

Here is the answer to your stupid question. Not that it wasn't already given hundred of times and you just chose to ignore it.

Its not like they facerolled it with EP gear

[OrcsRLame]

Is Method still wiping for hours to clear the latest retail raid or are they facerolling it in 2 hours by now ? And yet, was said raid hard or not when it was released ?

Here is the answer to your stupid question. Not that it wasn't already given hundred of times and you just chose to ignore it.

The thing your side doesn't understand is the monumental tuning difference between retail and classic.

If you reset retail to the point where Ny'alotha came out, it wouldn't get cleared much faster even with the knowledge players have now. This is because Ny'alotha is tuned very tightly and item level and just general power creep increases much faster in retail than in vanilla/classic.

Vael can be killed in under 30 seconds with no gear from BWL. Vael progression kills, judging by videos on youtube like this one, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xlfiv8YrigY can last up to 3 and a half minutes.

That means better game knowledge led to the kill time being cut down to 1/7th of what it originally was. The first N'zoth kill was about 13 minutes. Even with Ny'alotha gear you will NOT see N'zoth dying in just under 2 minutes. And you would never, even if you had a super computer working the problem for an infinite amount of time, be able to kill N'zoth in less than 2 minutes with Eternal Palace gear. Hell, less than 11 minutes is probably completely impossible without Ny'alotha gear.

And before you get angry at me for comparing the second boss vs an end boss, Nefarian is not a dps check, and there is technically no reason you can't just drag out the fight and kill him very slowly, so it's not even that useful to conceptualize Nefarian in terms of how long he takes. And there's also no retail fight to compare Nefarian to, because every fight on retail is a massive dps check.

Keep in mind also, that the item level scaling on retail is crazy. One tier in retail is about equivalent in terms of item level to going from dungeon blues to full Naxx gear. And that's adjusting for relative values as well, not taking absolute values to make retail gear seem better than it is.

Compare this to Lich King private servers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9xI8blM0Go

That is a buffed version of LK with about 10% more health. This is a good comparison because vanilla private servers also had buffed mobs compared to original vanilla and classic. That kill takes around 17 minutes. Apes killing Vael on private servers is just a bit above 30 seconds. https://youtu.be/yucB9jPrQl4?t=394

And Lich King is still considerably easier than retail raiding. You will not however see thousands of heroic Lich King kills on the first week he is available if Blizzard ever does classic LK servers.

It's simply that by ever objectively measurable standard, vanilla/classic had the easiest raids in the history of wow. It just got harder and harder every expansion until the bosses were so difficult they were teetering on impossible with the likes of Kil'jaeden in ToS.

[Akka]

The thing your side doesn't understand is the monumental tuning difference between retail and classic.

On the contrary, I perfectly understand them and that's why I can point where the comparisons fail.
- Unnerfed initial version vs nerfed and patched version.
- Highest difficulty vs medium difficulty (mythic difficulty shouldn't even be compared to anything below Naxx - and I'm not saying Naxx will be as hard as the hardest mythic bosses, just that it's nonsensical to compare the highest difficulty tier with anything but another highest difficulty tier, it simply has no meaning).
- Execution vs preparation.
And so on.

I agree with many of your points (that item power inflation is much bigger today, so the difficulty between "no gear" and "geared" is vastly different ; that Blizzard tuned fights tighter and tighter with the top guilds being more and more hardcore), heck I even somewhat agree with your reasoning in general (though you still ignore several aspects, like more powerful classes and items and unpatched/unnerfed content and so on, and you take for granted that LK on a pserver works the same as on retail). I'm just pointing at the usual stupid strawmen that sprout everywhere.

It's simply that by ever objectively measurable standard, vanilla/classic had the easiest raids in the history of wow.

They certainly hadn't the easiest raids when it came to roster management or consumable farm
Notice that I don't (and I've never) pretend that Classic/Vanilla had the hardest raids. As I said, I just poke holes at the idiocy displayed by so many shitposters, who make absurd comparisons or goes complete retard with exagerated claims (like BWL being easier than LFR).

[Shibito]

Congrats APES! Pretty crazy stuff honestly.

Congrats for coming in second?

[Poe]

Congrats for coming in second?

third actually