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  1. #21
    The Insane General Zanjin's Avatar
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    that is not how you spell anduin.
    #tracerisawesomelycute
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ght=shada%27in
    Mods are bias
    "I believe in honor but when it comes to war i will do whatever it takes to protect or save my family" -General Zanjin

  2. #22
    Nice bait, at least 1 page of people falling for it

  3. #23
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    Don't act like Blizzard hasn't been disneyifying all their IPs by using a "safe" formula.

    Sylvanas will be dealt with in this expansion and will be forgotten about immediately after. Whether she dies or just mysteriously disappears like the rest of the cast of main characters.
    until they use the horde as a punching bag again, take another one of its leaders completely retcon their thoughts and hit them with the evil bat again. I am hoping it doesnt happen again, or at least hoping that the next time they make the alliance take the first shot rather than horde looking like lunatics and the alliance playing world police again.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    I'm begging for Blizzard to try and redeem Blizzard. It's gonna be a laugh.
    they are also stuck at a crossroad, yet again, and they keep dragging the horde there along with them XD.
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    I don't think so. She's going to be the Gul'dan of Shadowlands like Azshara in BfA.
    Well, any story teller with any competence wouldn't make an anti-hero based on unrepentant use of pointless mass murder.

    But I'm not sure that means Blizzard wouldn't do it.

    But, given how Blizzard does it, she will be pure evil for an expansion or two. Then either a) we kill her in a raid, or b) Blizzard does a 180 like with Ilidian.

    But I don't see her as anything but a villian in BfA...

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    I don't think so. She's going to be the Gul'dan of Shadowlands like Azshara in BfA.

    She committed genocide on the night elves. If they try to twist that into misunderstood, and tragic figure, the player base is going to reject it the way they complained about Thrall during Cataclysm.
    Unless they go the route that after the Jailer is defeated (which will be revealed to be Sylvanas plan all along) and she takes his spot, she then releases all the trapped souls back into the world. She would then leave Forsaken in the care of someone, while other LF Forsaken come under the care of Calia (sorry, can’t see Calia being a Forsaken leader as she is clearly Alliance aligned).
    Is this shitty writing design? I don’t know, as Blizzard could try and put a great story for it. Is this likely to happen? Probably not, but I can see something along those lines since they keep saying she isn’t just another Garrosh.

  6. #26
    I am Murloc! Maxrokur's Avatar
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    Moshi moshi baitheramore san
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    No, she is my waifu. Stop posting and delete this thread immediately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Voted Baine because... Well, Baine. Total nonsensical character, looks like World War II Italy, nobody really understands what role he's supposed to fill, not even himself

  7. #27
    I hope so.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  8. #28
    No. She is a villain and was always a villain. She is not Kerrigan at all. Kerrigan was mind-controlled and was always a good person, so much so that she ultimately redeems herself. Syvlanas was always a twisted lunatic and has no interest in redemption.

    Also, the main character is you. The story is told through your eyes.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    She's not getting this power up and feared by the Void Lords for no reason.
    True, the reason is that she is afraid of death and the just fate of eternal torment awaiting her in the Maw, so she is collecting power to prevent that from happening. If she has to murder the entire Planet for that, then so be it.
    And no, the Void Lords do not fear her. They fear Death itself because it is the enemy of everyone. Though considering how overpowered Sylvanas is these days, she probably could solo a few Void Lords, should be no big deal, she will wipe out their armies, smirk and kill them.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    The shifting focus has gone from Illidan, to Arthas, to Illidan again, to Anduin, to Saurfang, and now to her. I think Sylvanas may even be an early avatar of Azeroth and Death itself also influenced her birth. She will have a big role to play and I don't see her going anywhere anytime soon.
    Early Avatar of Azeroth? What? Where are you getting this? She was just a snide elf with deep seated sociopathy and a superiority complex. Then she met Arthas and started her way of becoming a worse monster then he ever was. She is now ready to claim that title.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    She is the Black Knight/Batman of WoW. A misunderstood and tragic figure that is neither a hero or villain.
    1) Yes, I vividly remember that time when Batman torched a tree full of innocents. Great moment. He had just beaten the Joker, but the Joker told him he could never kill hope. So Bats growled "Can't I?" and lit the tree on fire. Incidentally Squirrel Girl died in the flames too.

    2) She is not misunderstood. That myth is just spread by the fanboys that want there to be some higher purpose that justifies everything she has done. Newsflash: There is no justification for any of her crimes. She murdered and blighted because she does not care about the living (she said so herself) and barely cares about the undead either. She did everything ever only for herself, her vengeance, her survival.

    3) She was a tragic figure and then she decided that because of her tragedy she can now do whatever she wants, so as soon she was freed she started developing her blight with human test subjects. Everything so she could get her vengeance. At that point she stopped being tragic and deserving any pity or mercy, she started becoming a villian and she will be put down like a villian. The only baffling thing is how she survived so long in the Horde.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Unless they go the route that after the Jailer is defeated (which will be revealed to be Sylvanas plan all along) and she takes his spot, she then releases all the trapped souls back into the world. She would then leave Forsaken in the care of someone, while other LF Forsaken come under the care of Calia (sorry, can’t see Calia being a Forsaken leader as she is clearly Alliance aligned).
    Is this shitty writing design? I don’t know, as Blizzard could try and put a great story for it. Is this likely to happen? Probably not, but I can see something along those lines since they keep saying she isn’t just another Garrosh.
    I have no doubt that Sylavanas wants to kill the Jailer and take his powers. She never had any loyalties to anyone, at best she has a common purpose with him or a deal that will keep her out of the Maw if she helps him, but she will betray him as soon as there is an option that does not put herself in any danger (probably after we defeated him she will swoop in).

    And yes, maybe she does release the souls, which I doubt as those are apparently empowering her, but... so what? A big chunk of them is only in the Maw because Sylvanas personally send them there. They did not need to be there at all, if it wasn't for her genocidal acts. Releasing them into another realm of death does not make these any less dead nor does it retroactively excuse burning children do ash.
    Even if she gains power over life and death, that would allow her to revive these people, it does not just undo her crimes, it only makes her an even more dangerous psychopath.
    Last edited by Raisei; 2020-02-11 at 08:30 AM.

  10. #30
    They've pretty much wrote her into dying as a villain at this point. At the very least if she finds any measure of redemption it needs to be in death or otherwise something that will remove her from the story without overtures of being able to break her out the next time we cross a danger threshold like we did with Illidan.

    By having the Burning of Teldrassil be an act that was implicitly done out of petty spite instead of something well intentioned or not being herself because of outside corruption, and then doubled down on that and everything else she's done by revealing her allegiance to the Jailer, she's crossed a line where if the writers DO try to redeem her - regardless of their intention or not - it's going to be them implicitly saying that someone committing an act of hatred driven racial genocide (and near succeeding) is something that can be forgiven. Within both real life subtext and in the context of WoW (Daelin Proudmoore and Garithos springs to mind) that's a very dangerous line to let your narrative walk.

    If justifying the burning as "Morally grey, just wait and see" wasn't already enough to be an Albatross hanging around the storytelling's neck in hindsight of the context of the rest of BfA, redeeming Sylvanas in any way that leaves her still an active player would be adding a pelican to that and throwing the story into the ocean.
    Last edited by Veluren; 2020-02-11 at 08:29 AM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    No. She is a villain and was always a villain. She is not Kerrigan at all. Kerrigan was mind-controlled and was always a good person, so much so that she ultimately redeems herself. Syvlanas was always a twisted lunatic and has no interest in redemption.
    Do you really believe that 2020 Blizzard cannot pull out a "the Jailer mind-controlled her all along" sort of plot-twist to instantly redeem her from everything since LK ?

  12. #32
    Old God Orby's Avatar
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    If Tyrande doesnt deliver the final blow on Sylvanas then there is no justice for Night Elves in WoW. Blizzard really do hate them now... Where are the Night Elves of Warcraft 3? We saw a bit of it in Darkshore Warfront cinematic, I was pumped... I want more of these Night Elves again. Blizzard have done them so dirty since WoW began.

    It finally took 6 expansions to get the Night Elves of old back :P

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    True, the reason is that she is afraid of death and the just fate of eternal torment awaiting her in the Maw, so she is collecting power to prevent that from happening. If she has to murder the entire Planet for that, then so be it.
    And no, the Void Lords do not fear her. They fear Death itself because it is the enemy of everyone. Though considering how overpowered Sylvanas is these days, she probably could solo a few Void Lords, should be no big deal, she will wipe out their armies, smirk and kill them.



    Early Avatar of Azeroth? What? Where are you getting this? She was just a snide elf with deep seated sociopathy and a superiority complex. Then she met Arthas and started her way of becoming a worse monster then he ever was. She is now ready to claim that title.



    1) Yes, I vividly remember that time when Batman torched a tree full of innocents. Great moment. He had just beaten the Joker, but the Joker told him he could never kill hope. So Bats growled "Can't I?" and lit the tree on fire. Incidentally Squirrel Girl died in the flames too.

    2) She is not misunderstood. That myth is just spread by the fanboys that want there to be some higher purpose that justifies everything she has done. Newsflash: There is no justification for any of her crimes. She murdered and blighted because she does not care about the living (she said so herself) and barely cares about the undead either. She did everything ever only for herself, her vengeance, her survival.

    3) She was a tragic figure and then she decided that because of her tragedy she can now do whatever she wants, so as soon she was freed she started developing her blight with human test subjects. Everything so she could get her vengeance. At that point she stopped being tragic and deserving any pity or mercy, she started becoming a villian and she will be put down like a villian. The only baffling thing is how she survived so long in the Horde.



    I have no doubt that Sylavanas wants to kill the Jailer and take his powers. She never had any loyalties to anyone, at best she has a common purpose with him or a deal that will keep her out of the Maw if she helps him, but she will betray him as soon as there is an option that does not put herself in any danger (probably after we defeated him she will swoop in).

    And yes, maybe she does release the souls, which I doubt as those are apparently empowering her, but... so what? A big chunk of them is only in the Maw because Sylvanas personally send them there. They did not need to be there at all, if it wasn't for her genocidal acts. Releasing them into another realm of death does not make these any less dead nor does it retroactively excuse burning children do ash.
    Even if she gains power over life and death, that would allow her to revive these people, it does not just undo her crimes, it only makes her an even more dangerous psychopath.
    There’s a misunderstanding. I’m not saying she releases them to another realm of death. I’m saying she basically releases them and they are resurrected, thereby negating the whole genocide thing. It’s basically the Pain story arc where he killed almost the entire Hidden Leaf Village and then resurrected them after Naruto got thru to him. Or another Illidan story arc where he enslaved people, killed countless others, became a demon embued with the power he seeks to destroy, yet he gets some redemption arc where he helps imprison Sargeras and suddenly he’s forgiven for everything he’s done. Illidan’s story is one of the worst redemption arcs because nothing in the story revealed anything as to why he was necessary other than he helped a bit in the final battle and trained DHs (who also were shown to not be necessary except in some battle against a Void Lord).

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    There’s a misunderstanding. I’m not saying she releases them to another realm of death. I’m saying she basically releases them and they are resurrected, thereby negating the whole genocide thing. It’s basically the Pain story arc where he killed almost the entire Hidden Leaf Village and then resurrected them after Naruto got thru to him. Or another Illidan story arc where he enslaved people, killed countless others, became a demon embued with the power he seeks to destroy, yet he gets some redemption arc where he helps imprison Sargeras and suddenly he’s forgiven for everything he’s done. Illidan’s story is one of the worst redemption arcs because nothing in the story revealed anything as to why he was necessary other than he helped a bit in the final battle and trained DHs (who also were shown to not be necessary except in some battle against a Void Lord).
    Yes, I went over that in my last sentence. Even if she gains the power to bring back the dead, that does not undo her crimes. She still damned innocent children to die in flames for no reason, she still murdered people in her plague experiments for her vengeance alone and she still knowingly left them to suffer in the Maw for month and years when she herself experienced 2 minutes of it.
    Reviving her victims does not make any of this go away, besides, we have to wonder if the people that get send to the Maw can even be revived and what state they come back in. If they return with the memory of all the suffering they experienced they will return with severe psychological damage, none of them would be able to lead a normal life again. Remember, Sylvanas experienced barely a glimpse and she got so scared that she is now doing anything to stay alive. That kind of suffering over an extended period will break people.

    For comparison, read the story of Green Lantern Hal Jordan, a hero that went mad through severe tragedy and in a quest for the power to make that tragedy go away went on a killing spree always excusing his actions by saying that he would make everything right again. He went so far to eradicate the universe after aquiring enough power, with the intent of making a new and better one, where all his victims would live again.
    In the end he was of course stopped, by his friends, because you can't redeem yourself by unkilling people even if you think you are a god. His redemption came much later, when he sacrificed his life to save the earth and even after that he was still not trusted by many people. He got a second redemption when the spirit of vengeance posessed his soul (which again saved the earth) and some time later it was retconned that all his crimes were because of an alien entity controlling him.
    The point is: Redemption does not come from trying to make your crimes go away. It is not that easy.

    The Naruto example you bring up is correct, but I would argue that that series is by far to lenient with it's villians. Pain was a mass murderer and got redeemed just because he revived a few dozen of his victims, Obito who has murdered and manipulated even more (with the sole reason being that he lost his childhood love) with not a twitch of regret gets a stern talking to and dies a hero... what...?

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    She is the Black Knight/Batman of WoW. A misunderstood and tragic figure that is neither a hero or villain.
    Which part is misunderstood and which part is not a villain?

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Do you really believe that 2020 Blizzard cannot pull out a "the Jailer mind-controlled her all along" sort of plot-twist to instantly redeem her from everything since LK ?
    They can pull anything, if they want they can even say that Alleria was a Light Elf painted purple all along. It doesn't change the fact that the narrative is not trying t set up Sylvanas as a hero.
    How could I ever have loved someone so weak? Let us hope Arator did not inherit your cowardice.

  17. #37
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    She is the Black Knight/Batman of WoW. A misunderstood and tragic figure that is neither a hero or villain.
    You sound like you're comparing her to Ozymandias or something. The difference between the two is that Ozy actually had good intentions and a somewhat noble goal: by creating fake monsters and causing widespread destruction (or by emulating Dr. Manhattan's energy signature in the film), he was able to unite the world, end the quickly-escalating Cold War, and avoid nuclear war that would have brought about the end of humanity.

    Sylvanas has caused countless deaths, sending even civilians who did literally nothing wrong to the Maw (basically Warcraft's version of Hell), in order to amass power and avoid that Hell herself. She, like Thanos from the MCU, isn't an 'antihero/antivillain,' she's a charismatic psychopath with delusions of grandeur. She's as villainous as it gets given her modus operandi is 'wipe out entire civilian settlements and move on to the next population center before the smoke clears.'
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  18. #38
    Orcboi NatePsy's Avatar
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    Dunno man, in the upcoming novel she pretty much tried to assassinate Talanji with her loyal followers. Her targets seem to be pretty significant too based off of that assassination attempt, Bwonsamdi is also in her sights via Nathanos and that Warden chick, dunno how they're going to pull off killing Bwonsamdi but we'll see. She's nowhere NEAR Batman-esque or a tragic story figure. She committed genocide on the Night Elves and burnt down their capital. Then there's Nazjatar where she basically lead Horde into a trap as a way of collecting more souls all for the sake of fulfilling her bargain with Death, Batman doesn't do that to innocents lol.

    She's too far gone dude, you Sylvanas fans are nuts if you think she gets out of this clean, she's going to be in the same raid as Death or have her own major raid with her as the last boss. She can't escape that fate, if they want to appease her fanbase, then MAYBE she flee's and is never heard of again after losing all of her powerbase, but she definitely isn't getting off scotfree lol.

    If their intentions were a "Batman" or "Illidan" type, then they kinda wrote themselves into a corner by making her do some pretty damning shit lol. She basically pulled a Lich King by murdering innocents in their own capital then razing it, remember what happened to the Lich King in WotLK? He was killed, his original intentions however pure were tainted the moment he picked up that sword. The moment she made that bargain with Death, she was doomed. If you're expecting a "mind control" bs story explanation then you could pretty much say "Oh the Lich King did nothing wrong, it was the sword!"
    Last edited by NatePsy; 2020-02-11 at 03:12 PM.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Yes, I went over that in my last sentence. Even if she gains the power to bring back the dead, that does not undo her crimes. She still damned innocent children to die in flames for no reason, she still murdered people in her plague experiments for her vengeance alone and she still knowingly left them to suffer in the Maw for month and years when she herself experienced 2 minutes of it.
    Reviving her victims does not make any of this go away, besides, we have to wonder if the people that get send to the Maw can even be revived and what state they come back in. If they return with the memory of all the suffering they experienced they will return with severe psychological damage, none of them would be able to lead a normal life again. Remember, Sylvanas experienced barely a glimpse and she got so scared that she is now doing anything to stay alive. That kind of suffering over an extended period will break people.

    For comparison, read the story of Green Lantern Hal Jordan, a hero that went mad through severe tragedy and in a quest for the power to make that tragedy go away went on a killing spree always excusing his actions by saying that he would make everything right again. He went so far to eradicate the universe after aquiring enough power, with the intent of making a new and better one, where all his victims would live again.
    In the end he was of course stopped, by his friends, because you can't redeem yourself by unkilling people even if you think you are a god. His redemption came much later, when he sacrificed his life to save the earth and even after that he was still not trusted by many people. He got a second redemption when the spirit of vengeance posessed his soul (which again saved the earth) and some time later it was retconned that all his crimes were because of an alien entity controlling him.
    The point is: Redemption does not come from trying to make your crimes go away. It is not that easy.

    The Naruto example you bring up is correct, but I would argue that that series is by far to lenient with it's villians. Pain was a mass murderer and got redeemed just because he revived a few dozen of his victims, Obito who has murdered and manipulated even more (with the sole reason being that he lost his childhood love) with not a twitch of regret gets a stern talking to and dies a hero... what...?
    There’s also the fact that in most stories, at least that I am familiar with, whenever someone is brought back from the dead they either don’t have memories of their experience or they are taken from them. They usually come back with no memory of the experience. One example against this was Buffy the Vampire Slayer TV series when she was depressed and it was found out she was actually in Heaven and they ripped her from it. She was quick to get over it once she talked about it. Sylvanas was scared of her fate after her death she would receive once she was dead, not just being dead.
    You have a perfect example of things being done to redeem people with Hal Jordan, in that it took 3 explanations but was finally forgiven by some kind of retcon.
    The Naruto is also another great example.
    The point is Blizzard could do any type of storytelling to redeem her. I never once stated it would be good storytelling in doing so.

  20. #40
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NatePsy View Post
    Dunno man, in the upcoming novel she pretty much tried to assassinate Talanji with her loyal followers. Her targets seem to be pretty significant too based off of that assassination attempt, Bwonsamdi is also in her sights via Nathanos and that Warden chick, dunno how they're going to pull off killing Bwonsamdi but we'll see. She's nowhere NEAR Batman-esque or a tragic story figure. She committed genocide on the Night Elves and burnt down their capital. Then there's Nazjatar where she basically lead Horde into a trap as a way of collecting more souls all for the sake of fulfilling her bargain with Death, Batman doesn't do that to innocents lol.
    Well, we don't really know if Sylvanas is specifically the one who tried to assassinate Talanji in the "Shadows Rising" excerpt - it's definitely a possibility, even a high one, but it's not 100% guaranteed. Talanji doesn't enjoy the full support of her own people, given her association with Bwonsamdi due to her father's deal with the Loa, and former servants of Zul still likely dwell in her court having wisely opted to hide their plumage when Zul was killed in Uldir. So while Sylvanas may indeed prove to be the culprit, it's also possible her assassination attempt was an adjacent or even an unrelated plot coming from some disenfranchised element of her own people. Time will tell.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
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