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  1. #21
    The Lightbringer Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFromHumanResources View Post
    If person A is loyal to person B and person B is one of the main figureheads of a faction, I consider person A part of that faction.

    She is literally Anduin's personal spy, an asset to Anduin and acts in the interest of the Alliance by doing what he tells her, formal introduction or not.
    Let's say Anduin was removed from the position of High King and Genn or Tyrande takes over ... Valeera would go with Anduin, not stay.

    She isn't really Alliance because if the Wrynn line is either extinguished or removed from power, she may or may not continue to work with the Alliance.

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    On topic, in theory, any race could join either fraction, but it is unlikely they do in any large number to be meaningful. And the honest answer, the current Horde and maybe Thrall lead Horde would permit any race to join it ... the Alliance is less likely to let an orc walk in and declare himself a member of the Horde, but it is still in the realm of possibility.
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  2. #22
    The actual answer is no, "an orc" cant join alliance
    However if you are buddy buddy with one of the leaders of the alliance (or horde), you can join in regardless of your race.
    Like reallife lore

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Let's say Anduin was removed from the position of High King and Genn or Tyrande takes over ... Valeera would go with Anduin, not stay.

    She isn't really Alliance because if the Wrynn line is either extinguished or removed from power, she may or may not continue to work with the Alliance.
    I never argued that she would stay within the Alliance or continue to work with them if House Wrynn was ever to seceed. In fact I agree, should House Wrynn choose to leave the Alliance, I would no longer consider her as part of it.

    However until her employer, who is part of the Alliance, leaves the Alliance she is part of it. No matter how much she culturally still identifies with Blood Elves.
    Last edited by LarryFromHumanResources; 2020-02-16 at 01:32 PM.
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  4. #24
    There's a Goblin in a pretty high position in an Alliance organization. So I would guess it's possible in some cases.
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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFromHumanResources View Post
    Her actions absolutely prove that she's part of that faction. She is the personal spy of one of the most prominent members within it. Doesn't matter that she hasn't fought the Horde. She has pledged herself to serve House Wrynn. House Wrynn is a part of the Alliance.

    That the Horde allows her in their cities is irrelevant, it's due to it being pretty well known that she's Anduin's spy.

    That she on occasion is shown to be giving quests to Horde players is irrelevant she has still pledged herself to House Wrynn.
    If she were part of the Alliance, she would be actively taking part in the war effort which she is not. She only serves Wrynn and Wrynn only to the extent of making sure he is not killed. The Wrynn's are a noble family that rule over Stormwind. The Alliance is a gathering of several nations in a pact. The Wrynn's can rule even if they were to separate themselves from the Alliance. If the Wrynn's were to officially disconnect themselves from the Alliance, then what will your excuse be? Valeera only serves the noble family, that's it, nobody else. She doesn't take part in the Alliance wars.

    If she is a well known spy of Anduin, that should give the Horde more a reason to prevent her from entering their territory. No Alliance character would sit around in a Horde city and give quests to Horde players.

    No it's not irrelevant, it's meant to tell you that she plays on both sides of the fence and doesn't fight for either factions.

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Valeera_Sanguinar
    "I am neither Horde nor Alliance. What has either faction ever done for me?"

    or you know, World of Warcraft Comic: Stranger in a Strange Land:

    "She culturally identifies as a blood elf, taking pride in her people's traditions and defending their tribulations and loyalties. However, she herself acts independently of the Thalassian government, and has formally joined neither the Horde nor the Alliance since her introduction but is fiercely loyal to Varian and his son."

    Let me give you a real world example. Remember the Shah of Iran? Yeah, he had bodyguards that he hired from different countries, they swore no loyalty to Iran, but only to the Shah. After the Shah died, they left the country. Their duty was only to protect the Shah. So just because you got a bodyguard who is protecting a King, that in no way means they are also fighting for that faction.
    Last edited by gurutikka; 2020-02-16 at 01:46 PM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by gurutikka View Post
    If she were part of the Alliance, she would be actively taking part in the war effort which she is not.
    Proves nothing, just means that her being part of the Alliance is conditional, she will not partake in the war effort, she WILL however act as a spy, bodyguard and messenger to one of the factions figureheads. Still a part of the Alliance

    She only serves Wrynn and Wrynn only to the extent of making sure he is not killed.
    1. She serves as his spy as well
    2. If you pledge to serve as the bodyguard to members of a noble family that is part part of an Alliance you are then also a member of that Alliance. What do you think would happen if the Horde, an enemy of the Alliance her employer is part of, sent assassins to kill Anduin? Would she hesitate because she's neutral? Of course she wouldn't because she isn't neutral.

    The Wrynn's are a noble family that rule over Stormwind. The Alliance is a gathering of several nations in a pact. The Wrynn's can rule even if they were to separate themselves from the Alliance. If the Wrynn's were to officially disconnect themselves from the Alliance, then what will your excuse be?
    My excuse? Why would I need any excuse? I never said that she was unconditionally a part of the Alliance. If House Wrynn was to leave the Alliance she would cease to be a part of it, just like literally every Stormwind footsoldier.

    I never said she was LOYAL TO THE ALLIANCE, of course she is loyal to House Wrynn alone, and if House Wrynn were to.leave the Alliance, she would no longer be part of it. Simple.

    Valeera only serves the noble family, that's it, nobody else. She doesn't take part in the Alliance wars.
    Yes, she acts as an asset to a noble family that is one of the main driving forces behind an Alliance, a noble family that to a massive extent has the best interests of that Alliance in mind. As such, she serves the Alliance.

    If she is a well known spy of Anduin, that should give the Horde more a reason to prevent her from entering their territory. No Alliance character would sit around in a Horde city and give quests to Horde players.
    Why? If they know she is a spy they're able to control the flow of information, feeding your enemies false intel is pretty valuable

    No it's not irrelevant, it's meant to tell you that she plays on both sides of the fence and doesn't fight for either factions.
    Of course it's irrelevant, one quest litereally has her saying "I'm here on behalf of Anduin". She's not playing both sides, she's a messenger for a king of a house that's the most prominent member of an alliance.

    I don't really care about the stuff you added later, I've already adressed the main points they bring up and the rest don't strengthen your argument.

    I suspect we won't agrre though on this, I'd say it's been productive but it really hasn't.
    Last edited by LarryFromHumanResources; 2020-02-16 at 01:56 PM.
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  7. #27
    How many germans fought for the allies in WW2? I'm sure it happened but not many

  8. #28
    Stood in the Fire Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaito92 View Post
    The actual answer is no, "an orc" cant join alliance
    However if you are buddy buddy with one of the leaders of the alliance (or horde), you can join in regardless of your race.
    Like reallife lore
    By the looks of it, Lightbound Orcs will join the Alliance soon

  9. #29
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Honestly the Alliance and Horde are more inclusive than ever. These days it's more about what you can bring to the table.
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  10. #30
    A bodyguard's job is to protect a specific person. So even if the Horde sent assassins to kill the person she is protecting, she has to kill those assassins, but that still doesn't mean she is part of the Alliance nor does that mean she is at war against the Horde. For example, if the Horde sent assassins to kill a random Alliance character, she won't give a damn and will not do anything, but if it's a Wrynn, she will. Not sure why you are having trouble understanding this concept.

    Yeah pal, if she's not actively taking part in any of the Alliance war efforts nor engaging the Horde on behalf of the Alliance, than I fail to see how she is a member of the Alliance.

    Again, she doesn't serve the Alliance. If so, provide me proof from lore where she has done things on behalf of the Alliance. She has not done a single thing for the Alliance, she only acts if Anduin tells her to act and even then it's just for limited things such as delivering messages. Her main job has always been to make sure he doesn't die. That hardly makes you default to a faction that very noble family rules over.

    The Horde knows she is not affiliated with the Alliance, they also know that she has never fought against the Horde. Do you really think if she was legit part of the Alliance and then she decides to sit around in Zulzadar (giving quests to Horde players) and then again in Orgrimmar (during the Horde council meeting), the Horde will just sit around not caring about that? lol... I think the Horde clearly knows that she is not affiliated with the Alliance. And frankly, she is not. She hasn't done jack for the Alliance.

    She's a mediator between the Horde and Anduin. She literally does nothing for the Alliance. Even Jaina distrusted her when she saw Valeera pop up on the Alliance ship before the quest where Baine returns the undead Proudmoore to Boralus. Very little people know about her on the Alliance and those who do, distrust her. She's not part of the Alliance, she never was. She herself says this multiple times.

    Just you watch and see, as soon as Anduin dies, she's gone for good, she will leave Stormwind. She doesn't give jack shitt about the Alliance.

    At the end of the day, you can assume what you want to assume, but there clearly is no lore strong enough to prove that she is a member of the Alliance.
    Last edited by gurutikka; 2020-02-16 at 02:12 PM.

  11. #31
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    I'd say the Undead can't join any faction except Horde while everyone else is A-Ok.
    Calia Menethil and Derek Proudmoore kind of stand in rebuttal to that position, however. While Derek might be an outlier, Calia seems to have been embraced by the Alliance as a whole considered the High King of the Alliance was involved in her becoming undead in the first place.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    How many germans fought for the allies in WW2? I'm sure it happened but not many
    Around 10,000, according to historians - mostly German citizens who fled Nazi persecution early on for "political subversion" (AKA disillusionment with fascism) and joined the European Allied forces against Nazi Germany.
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  12. #32
    I'd say join, no. Be tolerated within, yeah. Even the Garrosh' Horde hired that Alliance-containing crew for that Vashj'ir mission. Pretty sure mercenaries of all races are everywhere. Though you probably want to avoid some areas alone, for your own safety.

    Joining though, that's something else. A neutral or normally hostile race like a Steamwheedle Goblin or a Centaur (Comic) might be accepted when swearing loyalty. But someone from the opposite faction? I don't see either faction burn their hands on that one. Not unless it's a whole race, tribe or faction that brings in very justifiable benefit.
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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by gurutikka View Post
    A bodyguard's job is to protect a specific person. So even if the Horde sent assassins to kill the person she is protecting, she has to kill those assassins, but that still doesn't mean she is part of the Alliance nor does that mean she is at war against the Horde.
    Of course she's not at war with the Horde, but I never said she needed to be to be part of the Alliance. Her relationship with it, association, being part of, is conditional. She has no quarrel with the Horde so will not fight them, but will act as a messenger, spy or bodyguard

    For example, if the Horde sent assassins to kill a random Alliance character, she won't give a damn and will not do anything, but if it's a Wrynn, she will.
    The same can literally be said about a baker in Stormwind, yet they're still equally as big a part of the Alliance. If the Horde sent assassins to kill Tyrande, or shit even Anduin a baker similarly wouldn't do anything because that's not their job or role within the Alliance, just like it also isn't Valeera's job to fight the Horde. I don't know if they'd care but that's irrelevant.

    Yeah pal, if she's not actively taking part in any of the Alliance war efforts nor engaging the Horde on behalf of the Alliance, than I fail to see how she is a member of the Alliance.
    Like mentioned above she doesn't need to fight the Alliance's wars to be a part of it.

    Again, she doesn't serve the Alliance. If so, provide me proof from lore where she has done things on behalf of the Alliance. She has not done a single thing for the Alliance, she only acts if Anduin tells her to act and even then it's just for limited things such as delivering messages. Her main job has always been to make sure he doesn't die. That hardly makes you default to a faction that very noble family rules over.
    Alright so you just mentioned yourself two cases where she serves the Alliance, by delivering messages for and protecting Anduin.

    Look, I think you're getting hung up on MEMBERSHIP of the Alliance which is never an argument I've made. I never said she was a member of the Alliance. She has never been formally introduced and she claims herself she isn't loyal or a member of the Alliance.

    She is however still part of it regardless of formalities and personal loyalties and beliefs.

    The Horde knows she is not affiliated with the Alliance, they also know that she has never fought against the Horde. Do you really think if she was legit part of the Alliance and then she decides to sit around in Zulzadar (giving quests to Horde players) and then again in Orgrimmar (during the Horde council meeting), the Horde will just sit around not caring about that?
    It does seem like that's the case that the Horde has a spy part of the Alliance hanging around their cities though. Guess they're not very smart, or they see an opportunity to use her to feed Anduin false information, who knows, and what the Horde does really doesn't matter. Because you can say ''Do you really think they'd do that?'' all you want but the fact is they ARE doing that. They are allowing someone loyal to a prominent figure within their rival faction to hang out in their cities.

    She's a mediator between the Horde and Anduin. She literally does nothing for the Alliance.
    She is a mediator EMPLOYED by Anduin to parley with the Horde, Anduin with House Wrynn being a member of the Alliance acts in the interest of the Alliance, as such, Valeera as a mediator between the Alliance and Horde acts in the interest of the Alliance, and as such, is a part of the Alliance.

    Even Jaina distrusted her when she saw Valeera pop up on the Alliance ship before the quest where Baine returns the undead Proudmoore to Boralus. Very little people know about her on the Alliance and those who do, distrust her.
    Doesn't matter. Just because she experiences distrust from members within the Alliance doesn't mean she's not part of it.

    She's not part of the Alliance, she never was. She herself says this multiple times.
    Like I've said I don't care what she says, and I don't care that she identifies more with Blood Elven culture. She may not be a MEMBER of the Alliance, OR LOYAL to it, I give you that, but that was never my argument, my argument was that she was a PART of the Alliance, she is ASSOCIATED with the Alliance because her employer is a part of the Alliance.

    Just you watch and see, as soon as Anduin dies, she's gone for good, she will leave Stormwind.
    I never said she wouldn't.

    She doesn't give jack shitt about the Alliance.
    I never said she needed to.

    At the end of the day, you can assume what you want to assume, but there clearly is no lore strong enough to prove that she is a member of the Alliance.
    Saying ''at the end of the day'' doesn't mean anything. There is a far stronger case to be made that she's part of the Alliance than one that she's not and if you'd read what I've been writing you'd see that, but with all the strawmen you're putting up that doesn't seem to be the case.
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Calia Menethil and Derek Proudmoore kind of stand in rebuttal to that position, however. While Derek might be an outlier, Calia seems to have been embraced by the Alliance as a whole considered the High King of the Alliance was involved in her becoming undead in the first place.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Around 10,000, according to historians - mostly German citizens who fled Nazi persecution early on for "political subversion" (AKA disillusionment with fascism) and joined the European Allied forces against Nazi Germany.
    More than I thought admittedly.

    On topic, another thing to consider is I'm sure the propaganda is strong from birth in both the alliance and horde. A young alliance member is obviously going to be repeatedly exposed to the idea that the horde are monsters/ savages etc, young horde would be exposed to ideas saying the alliance are honorless, cowardly etc - sure, people can make their own decisions when they get older. At most it seems races decide to not be members of their respective faction, not switch to the other

  15. #35
    Banned Syegfryed's Avatar
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    no, there is no reason the opposite faction would accept an enemy, who could be a spy doing double-agente job, he would never be accept as citizen to the people either

    and the game is better like that, with things/races set

  16. #36
    Stood in the Fire Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    no, there is no reason the opposite faction would accept an enemy, who could be a spy doing double-agente job, he would never be accept as citizen to the people either

    and the game is better like that, with things/races set
    Fogsail Pirates

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by gurutikka View Post
    Valeera is kinda tricky though, she claims that she doesn't belong to Horde yet she dresses up like one of theirs in their traditional red colors and rubs it in the face of the Alliance lol. I don't know about others, but seeing a character who dresses up as a Horde character in Alliance territory is kind of insulting.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You can consider what you want but she clearly says from her own mouth that she's not part of the Alliance.

    She protects Anduin, that's about it, she doesn't take part in Alliance war effort. She never has.
    its not horde red she is wearing.

    she is very proud to be a blood elf, but doesnt work for horde and has a powerful allegiance to wrynn blood line, which are the head of the alliance. she works for the alliance as seen on many quests (helping jaina and her brother ) and reed on books and the red she is wearing is the blood elf iconic crimson color.

  18. #38
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indres View Post
    Can an Orc join the alliance or a human join the horde or are warcraft factions just extremely racist and xenophobic

    I guess the races has a reason to hate each other but surely not everyone share the same views?

    With Calia ruling Lordaeron can undead rejoin the alliance?
    Individual exceptions can be made but there's almost always extenuating circumstances, like Valeera's personal loyalty to Varian and Anduin. Varian does a good job of explaining why so few people cross faction lines when the pandaren player character, Aysa, and Jojo first meet with him on joining the Alliance: the ongoing status of Alliance-Horde relations (read: fairly abysmal) means the factions have to take attempts to communicate cross-faction as a serious security risk that could directly lead to more lost lives. One would assume this also counts for defecting.

    Keep in mind that, as evidenced by the void elves, the Nightborne (to a certain extent given how long it'd been since they left night elf society), and the Alliance's short alliance of convenience with the Grimtotem, exiles are fair game for the other faction to poach.

    The blood elves are also an interesting note here, since they're typically fair-weather friends to their home faction, and have been since the high elves were part of the Alliance of Lordaeron. Lor'themar is pretty much always keeping his options open, since his loyalty is to the people of Quel'thalas first, and if the current faction puts undue risk on his people, the faction can get stuffed (this same 'Silvermoon First' line of thinking caused Sylvanas to hold the Ghostlands hostage, to force the blood elves into participating in the war in Northrend despite Lor'themar's protests that his people were exhausted and his troops depleted from just barely coming back from the brink of extinction, as beforehand he had only offered the most token of support).

    So in short, the potential is there, but oftentimes there's little incentive to do so. A blood elf in the Alliance suffers suspicion and xenophobia, especially when the night, high, and void elves all have a grudge with the blood elves. A human in Orgrimmar suffers suspicion and xenophobia because the humans and orcs have been violently at odds pretty much ever since they met. An undead Gilnean who refuses Sylvanas's offer and instead travels to Alliance lands to serve her king in death is going to be viewed with suspicion, as there's an extremely good chance she's a plant.

    Defectors are extremely likely to be suspected as being spies, and it's likely they'd have to do a lot to prove themselves before they can comfortably settle into their new faction.
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  19. #39
    Banned Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    Fogsail Pirates
    they didn't join

  20. #40
    I've got nothing to add other than the fact that I find it a very interesting question and enjoy reading the reply's to this.

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