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  1. #561
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    I am very pleased that the Ren'dorei are now one of the two main races of the Alliance (alongside the LF Draenei). Just as High Exarch Turalyon sits on the throne of Stormwind, Alleria Windrunner co-leads from the War Room next to the throne.

    From exiles in the Ghostlands to leadership of the Alliance, perfect and a natural outcome for a race comprised of the first mortals in the history of the Cosmos to successfully defy the Shadows' whispers.

    I have no doubt that, under the co-leadership of the Ren'dorei and LF Draenei, the Alliance shall prosper and heal from the wounds of war.
    Alleria isn't co-leader of the Alliance. She is essentially an advisor to Turalyon and that's it. She has no title and holds no political sway within the Alliance, cause many people still distrust her and her kin, as shown in Shadows Rising. Shaw doesn't trust her at all and I bet SI:7 spies are watching her closely ever since.

  2. #562
    Quote Originally Posted by BaumanKing View Post
    Alleria isn't co-leader of the Alliance. She is essentially an advisor to Turalyon and that's it. She has no title and holds no political sway within the Alliance, cause many people still distrust her and her kin, as shown in Shadows Rising. Shaw doesn't trust her at all and I bet SI:7 spies are watching her closely ever since.
    The Alliance is not a democracy. Alleria is the second highest-ranking member of the Alliance, as High Regent Turalyon's chief advisor and advisor of the room next to the Throne Room.

  3. #563
    Quote Originally Posted by BaumanKing View Post
    Alleria isn't co-leader of the Alliance. She is essentially an advisor to Turalyon and that's it. She has no title and holds no political sway within the Alliance, cause many people still distrust her and her kin, as shown in Shadows Rising. Shaw doesn't trust her at all and I bet SI:7 spies are watching her closely ever since.
    She is the leader of the Ren'dorei - furthermore, would she need to hold a title specifically, she is a hero for the alliance clearly respected amongst all the original alliance races, including the blood elves. She has brought the might and magic of hte high elves back into the alliance. And she is both wife and advisor to the leader of the alliance. I mean, do you doubt her influence?

    Even i f it's not been stated exactly, given what they've shown currently, she's right there, both as a racial leader and in the faction.

  4. #564
    New nightborne weapons look surprisingly good with Void Edge illusion. It fits our heritage quite well... but I still hope we would get void elf weapons eventually too.

    Last edited by Vaedan; 2021-12-13 at 11:39 AM.

  5. #565
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    New nightborne weapons look surprisingly good with Void Edge illusion. It fits our heritage quite well... but I still hope we would get void elf weapons eventually too.

    If only that void enchant could have purple star and deep face effect like the void wings on the heritage armor.

  6. #566
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    If only that void enchant could have purple star and deep face effect like the void wings on the heritage armor.
    Yes, that would look awesome. Perhaps Wild Soul illusion (night fae) will be closer to that, but I'll be able to try it once I reach renown 80 on my DH.

  7. #567
    I wouldn't be surprised if many of the blood elf astromancers who didn't join the Legion are the ones who went on to investigate the void.



    Think about it, studying the stars and the void of space - look at the progression of Star Augur Etraeus, he starts with arcane, then falls to the Legion and fel, and then the void - kinda like the void elves, arcane, then the fel with Kael and Illidan and the legion in TBC, and then after leaving Kael'thas, the void and returning to the alliance.

  8. #568
    It should also be noted that not all who were part of Magister Umbric's group were scholars (magisters, astromancers, arcanists, researchers, etc.) since we can also see Ren'dorei Umbral Rangers (hunters) and Ren'dorei Veiled Riftblades (warriors). Which is evidence that Magister Umbric's followers were far more than what some people here might think.

    Hence why it's not surprising that the Ren'dorei were able to field significant and considerable military forces in BfA...

  9. #569
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if many of the blood elf astromancers who didn't join the Legion are the ones who went on to investigate the void.



    Think about it, studying the stars and the void of space - look at the progression of Star Augur Etraeus, he starts with arcane, then falls to the Legion and fel, and then the void - kinda like the void elves, arcane, then the fel with Kael and Illidan and the legion in TBC, and then after leaving Kael'thas, the void and returning to the alliance.
    I think it is possible. Even though we do not have any real evidence, there are several facts that suggest they might be former Sunfury, or at least connected to them somehow.

    1) Research of the Void
    We have seen Sunfury Astromancers studying the Void in Netherstorm. Astromancy was originaly focusing on power of celestial bodies, but Kael's followers possibly pushed that field further into the study of the dark void of the space. We have seen them experimenting with the Void, resulting in a disaster at manaforge Ultris. It is quite a mystery for me that Umbric took up Dar'khans (who was a user of Death magic, not Void) research instead of let's say, research of High Astromancer Solarian, who turned herself into a void being. There is lot of potential for void elves in this part of blood elf history.
    It also seems that Astromancy was abandoned by sin'dorei after Kael's betrayal, since we've not seen any Astromancer since that time. We know that this is ancient magical practise which dates back to kaldorei empire, so I can understand that Umbric's followers would like to restore this ancient tradition of their people as a means to protect their people.

    2) Relations to the Horde
    When blood elves joined the Horde, it was only out of convenience. They wanted to reach Outland and rejoin Kael. Their relations with the Horde improved greatly when they learned of Kael's betrayal. It was that time that Horde provided help to blood elves in their darkest hour, when they had to overcome their addiction and fought to restore their homeland. Sunfury were not part of that society at that time. They joined the Horde at the time when Sunwell was restored, so their reception of the Horde might not be the same as of azerothian elves.
    Umbric also says that he and his followers were never really loyal to the Horde and they do not share it's values and feel more home within the Alliance. Now, Sunfury could not feel very well towards the Alliance as well, but after some years of reflection, they might feel that Alliance is more similar to their worldview then the Horde.

    3) Mistrust from Silvermoon society
    Being former Sunfury, they might not be fully trusted by rest of blood elves. Being mistrusted might only lead to be distanced from the society. That makes only easier for Umbric to accept help of the Alliance and join them afterwards.

    All of these are just theories and speculations. We don't really know what have become of Sunfury who rejoined Silvermoon. On the other hand, they are the only elves who focused on the Void. Sin'dorei society is centered around arcane, fire and light magic lately, other forms of magic are not really focused on. Interest in studies of the Void is being punished, as we've seen, so there is a good question why some individuals might want to focus on this magic. Easy explanation is that they had some experience with the Void already. I don't think we will ever get some explanation, but it's a fun theory to discuss.

  10. #570
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    We don't really know what have become of Sunfury who rejoined Silvermoon.
    We do get something.
    The Sunfury were helping the Farstriders keep Quel'Thalas secure
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Sun..._Quel.27Thalas

    But, there's no ruling out that if those Sunfury were Mages and Warlocks, then they might feel that they have traded a "grand" sort of life from the Mechanar and Netherstorm to fumbling through trees and forests for a group of forest-dwelling Farstriders in Quel'Thalas, where they are under high watch from the Ranger General and Captains.

    Some might be disgruntled by being tasked with something that could be seen as "menial" work, rather than allowing their powers and knowledge to flourish.

  11. #571
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    We do get something.
    The Sunfury were helping the Farstriders keep Quel'Thalas secure
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Sun..._Quel.27Thalas

    But, there's no ruling out that if those Sunfury were Mages and Warlocks, then they might feel that they have traded a "grand" sort of life from the Mechanar and Netherstorm to fumbling through trees and forests for a group of forest-dwelling Farstriders in Quel'Thalas, where they are under high watch from the Ranger General and Captains.

    Some might be disgruntled by being tasked with something that could be seen as "menial" work, rather than allowing their powers and knowledge to flourish.
    Yes, you're right, I recall it now. They might feel that their potential is wasted. Sunfury were Kael's finest, they might definitely feel frustrated being assigned to Ghostlands for years. That is another reason for them to feel bitter towards sin'dorei leadership and not obey Rommath when he forbid Void studies.

  12. #572
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    Yes, you're right, I recall it now. They might feel that their potential is wasted. Sunfury were Kael's finest, they might definitely feel frustrated being assigned to Ghostlands for years. That is another reason for them to feel bitter towards sin'dorei leadership and not obey Rommath when he forbid Void studies.

    ???

    Not sure where your logic is here...should the soldiers of Stormwind who are sent into the more dangerous zones of the Kingdom like for example Duskwood, feel bitter toward the Alliance leadership because they were...simply sent there defending their Kingdom ??? Should they rebel/leave/betray the Alliance simply because of that?

    And I think I have already told you this, but if the Sunfury dislike the Horde (no real evidence of it more than assumptions), they absolutely despise the Alliance and especially the Humans, as they felt their betrayal on their very own skin as Garithos almost killed all of them in cold blood and without a fair trial, including their Prince.

    In addition, I know you are only looking at the situation with the Void Elf glasses, but for veteran Blood Elves just like the Sunfury, defending their lands and people and especially the Sunwell should be a honor. And no, just because the Void Elves were exiled there and there are still some lesser undead walking around, Ghostlands ARE NOT the Azeroth version of the Maw. It can be a dangerous territory, but nothing that the Blood Elves (especially veterans like the Sunfury) can't handle. If the Ghostlands are left mostly empty, it is because the great majority of the civilians live in Eversong anyway.

    And, why do you want the Sunfury to become Void Elves anyway? Don't you think it is time for the Void Elves to start developing their own stuff ? Why do they always have to take from the parent race, giving nothing back in return? Just because they were former Blood Elves, it doesn't mean they have to take everything, otherwise there will always be bitter Sin'dorei players who consider the Void Elves "thieves" for this reason, or a meme/Mary Sue race that was given to the Alliance only because of aesthetics, and that's not good for the Void Elves, at all.

    Starting to develop your own Void Elves without taking from the Blood Elves all the time is the first step. The narrative arc of the Sunfury is OVER, anyway, since a long time ago. Sadly I don't think Blizzard even remember about them, and therefore they will not be showed among the Sin'dorei military and new lore anytime soon. But exactly for this reason, they should NOT join the Void Elves and get a prominent role among them either. Leave them be, Silvermoon have forgiven them of their blame for what happened in BC, and just because a few of them used the Void, it doesn't mean they would join the Void Elves at all, especially considering Void users like Shadow Priests and Warlocks are still allowed in Quel'thalas, just not the ones who want to delve too much into the study of it, and are now a part of the Alliance...
    Last edited by Synvanas; 2021-12-19 at 07:06 PM.

  13. #573
    Quote Originally Posted by Synvanas View Post
    ???

    Not sure where your logic is here...should the soldiers of Stormwind who are sent into the more dangerous zones of the Kingdom like for example Duskwood, feel bitter toward the Alliance leadership because they were...simply sent there defending their Kingdom ??? Should they rebel/leave/betray the Alliance simply because of that?

    And I think I have already told you this, but if the Sunfury dislike the Horde (no real evidence of it more than assumptions), they absolutely despise the Alliance and especially the Humans, as they felt their betrayal on their very own skin as Garithos almost killed all of them in cold blood and without a fair trial, including their Prince.
    Sunfury wanted power and the legion, it's very likely they despised Garithos for his treatement and Arthas for what he did.. shouldn't htey have despised illidan a night elf, for what the Darnassians did and never joined him? He is a night elf afterall.

    If they are going to forever despise all humasn for what one did, surely tehy'll despie all elves for what 1 did.. but wait, they didn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Synvanas View Post

    In addition, I know you are only looking at the situation with the Void Elf glasses, but for veteran Blood Elves just like the Sunfury, defending their lands and people and especially the Sunwell should be a honor. And no, just because the Void Elves were exiled there and there are still some lesser undead walking around, Ghostlands ARE NOT the Azeroth version of the Maw. It can be a dangerous territory, but nothing that the Blood Elves (especially veterans like the Sunfury) can't handle. If the Ghostlands are left mostly empty, it is because the great majority of the civilians live in Eversong anyway.
    I don't htink the Sunfury were defending hteir lands when they fled to Outland and Kaelt'has made the blood elves join the horde to get them all to their "new home"

    Then when the Sunfury joined the Legion and wanted to use the Sunwell to bring Kil'jaeden and SArgeras, I also don't think they were defending their home. But was that all sunfury? No! Some returned home to help defend, others could have done anything, we just don't know. On e person says it's possible, and pausible, you say it didn't happen, but we both know you can't prove it.


    Logic really dicaates that defending your home is doing what it takes either by gaining the weapons and power and/or allegiances to do so. Everyone has known the blood elves could have re-joined the allinace. The story told is to explain them joining the horde for reasons that have nothing to do with the story.

    You can defend your lands by teaming up with the alliance that never tried to destroy your lands nor wipe you out but with whom you have mutaully helped each other in a 3,000 year long friendship.



    Quote Originally Posted by Synvanas View Post
    And, why do you want the Sunfury to become Void Elves anyway? Don't you think it is time for the Void Elves to start developing their own stuff ? Why do they always have to take from the parent race, giving nothing back in return? Just because they were former Blood Elves, it doesn't mean they have to take everything, otherwise there will always be bitter Sin'dorei players who consider the Void Elves "thieves" for this reason, or a meme/Mary Sue race that was given to the Alliance only because of aesthetics, and that's not good for the Void Elves, at all.
    Blatantly

    Quote Originally Posted by Synvanas View Post

    Starting to develop your own Void Elves without taking from the Blood Elves all the time is the first step. The narrative arc of the Sunfury is OVER, anyway, since a long time ago. Sadly I don't think Blizzard even remember about them, and therefore they will not be showed among the Sin'dorei military and new lore anytime soon. But exactly for this reason, they should NOT join the Void Elves and get a prominent role among them either. Leave them be, Silvermoon have forgiven them of their blame for what happened in BC, and just because a few of them used the Void, it doesn't mean they would join the Void Elves at all, especially considering Void users like Shadow Priests and Warlocks are still allowed in Quel'thalas, just not the ones who want to delve too much into the study of it, and are now a part of the Alliance...
    You sound bitter, whether you like it or not, void elves come from blood elves. Doesn't matter if the sunfury arc is over or not, as they were around in the past and are likely candidates for void studies, it is plausible, and likely even.

    But speculating is poitnless, no way of ever proving or knowing, but the liklihood is enough.
    Last edited by Mace; 2021-12-19 at 09:03 PM.

  14. #574
    Quote Originally Posted by Synvanas View Post
    And I think I have already told you this, but if the Sunfury dislike the Horde (no real evidence of it more than assumptions), they absolutely despise the Alliance and especially the Humans, as they felt their betrayal on their very own skin as Garithos almost killed all of them in cold blood and without a fair trial, including their Prince.
    To be honest, blood elves were willing to rejoin the Alliance even after Garithos. It was a dwarf spy and night elf incursions in their lands that alienated them from the Alliance in the first place. Even Lor'themar wanted to rejoin the Alliance, and eventually a group of blood elves who claim to did not like the Horde did rejoin the Alliance few years later - void elves. So, you repeating that blood elves can't forget Garithos is mute argument, because blood elves never pulled that argument themselves. Even when his memory was still fresh (TBC introduction).

    In the same logic, I can say that blood elves would never side with orcs, who burned Eversong during Second War, or with trolls who butcher their kin for centuries, or undead who only recently brought the apocalypse to their homeland. I'm sure you'd argue, that it was not the same Horde who invaded Quel'thalas, it was not the same trolls and that undead were enslaved by Lich King... that is right and blood elves are certainly aware of that. In the same logic, human faction in the current Alliance are not the same human as Garithos and his followers.

    And, why do you want the Sunfury to become Void Elves anyway? Don't you think it is time for the Void Elves to start developing their own stuff ? Why do they always have to take from the parent race, giving nothing back in return? Just because they were former Blood Elves, it doesn't mean they have to take everything, otherwise there will always be bitter Sin'dorei players who consider the Void Elves "thieves" for this reason, or a meme/Mary Sue race that was given to the Alliance only because of aesthetics, and that's not good for the Void Elves, at all.
    Why? They are the last known group which used Void and gathered knowledge of it. High Astromancer Solarian even turned herself into a void beign. Why wouldn't these elves become void elves afterwards? They learned about the Void, decided to learn more, continued with their studies and got banished for that. That's the point. And yes, it is just a speculation, but as you see, more people find it possible. I don't understand what is so controverse about it.

    Starting to develop your own Void Elves without taking from the Blood Elves all the time is the first step. The narrative arc of the Sunfury is OVER, anyway, since a long time ago. Sadly I don't think Blizzard even remember about them, and therefore they will not be showed among the Sin'dorei military and new lore anytime soon. But exactly for this reason, they should NOT join the Void Elves and get a prominent role among them either. Leave them be, Silvermoon have forgiven them of their blame for what happened in BC, and just because a few of them used the Void, it doesn't mean they would join the Void Elves at all, especially considering Void users like Shadow Priests and Warlocks are still allowed in Quel'thalas, just not the ones who want to delve too much into the study of it, and are now a part of the Alliance...
    First of all, I'm not saying void elves should get everything blood elves have. They should not. Secondly, Sunfury are only briefly mentioned to rejoin Silvermoon and after that, they are not used anymore, so it's not like they made crucial part of sin'dorei society.

    You also need to understand that void elves are still thalassians. The history of blood elves is their history too. Sure, they changed their focus, which is OK... but don't you think that if there is a group of elves known for their knowledge and use of the Void, it should be developed on void elves rather then blood elves now? One of things void elves are lacking is proper background. This could be part of their story, part of their shared legacy with other thalassians. It does not hurt or rob blood elves of anything, so I don't see the reason to get so mad about it. Nobody is saying that ALL of Sunfury would immediately join the Alliance and become void elves. Clearly not... but there is fair chance some would, because they have connection to the Void while they were in Kael's service.

  15. #575
    So, you repeating that blood elves can't forget Garithos is mute argument, because blood elves never pulled that argument themselves. Even when his memory was still fresh (TBC introduction).
    Oh, the Blood Elves pulled that card more than once, they did...maybe not the ones who are more forgiving like Lor'themar or Liadrin, or the ones who are likely completely oblivious to it like Magister Umbric since he was all comfortable sleeping in Quel'thalas while the Sunfury were suffering, but the ones who were THERE in Lordaeron fighting for the Alliance, they do pull that card, and they get very angry too...just like Rommath, who, like all the Sunfury, was there that fateful day, and in Lor'themar's short story he becomes extremely angry recalling it, talking about a "monumental betrayal"...and yes, from the reaction of Rommath, we can surmise that would be the reaction of EVERY Sin'dorei who was there proudly fighting for the Alliance, and then they were imprisoned and almost killed despite their loyalty. No, the Sunfury should not join the Alliance, ever. Just being in Stormwind around the Humans would make them recall those painful moments of their lives, not to mention a Human commander on a distant warfront from Stormwind could easily do something like that to them once again in the future, there's no way to know how many Garithos symphatizers are in the Alliance after all (even after his death he could have followers)...especially because we know the Alliance still requires their soldiers to sacrifice themselves in order to reach their objectives, like seen in Nazmir...even if those were volunteers and there was no malicious intent behind it, there's no way a Sunfury would stand for something like that again, imagine the terrible PTSD they would have... no, please, let the Sunfury rest, in their own Kingdom and among their own people who forgave them...no more pain from the Alliance for them, please. They have suffered enough in their lives, even despite all their bad decisions they took under Prince Kael'thas.

    Why? They are the last known group which used Void and gathered knowledge of it. High Astromancer Solarian even turned herself into a void beign. Why wouldn't these elves become void elves afterwards? They learned about the Void, decided to learn more, continued with their studies and got banished for that. That's the point. And yes, it is just a speculation, but as you see, more people find it possible. I don't understand what is so controverse about it.
    High Astromancer Solarian is literally the antithesis of what a Void Elf should be. She probably didn't even study the Void all that much, she just wanted to wield its power for...more personal power, and that's it. Then, not only she succumbs to the whispers but also becomes a Void entity herself..this is...not what a Void Elf, who is all about restrain and control, and using the Void for "good", should be at all. Not to mention, on aggro, and when she kills a player, she proudly talks about the Sin'dorei and the Sunwell despite the Void. As I said, not all Void users are automatically going to join the Void Elves anyway, after all.

    One of things void elves are lacking is proper background. This could be part of their story, part of their shared legacy with other thalassians. It does not hurt or rob blood elves of anything, so I don't see the reason to get so mad about it. Nobody is saying that ALL of Sunfury would immediately join the Alliance and become void elves. Clearly not... but there is fair chance some would, because they have connection to the Void while they were in Kael's service.
    Then, since they are both Thalassians, I should ask for a group of Void Elf Riftblades who had second thoughts about joining the Alliance and fighting their own people, for whatever reason Blizzard could easily conjure...because of that, they leave the Alliance and return to Quel'thalas, Lor'themar forgives them, on the condition they stay in the Ghostlands and stop studying the Void, and they share every information they have about the Void Elves with the Blood Elves. They do all that, so they are fully forgiven and reintegrated as citizens and soldiers, so the Blood Elves could deploy Void Elf troops too now when they want to, and the Blood Elves players get to play a Void Elf model, too.

    You...don't really like any of this, right? I guess you really don't..in fact, I agree and I feel very greedy right now just because I have written something like this. It would indeed mean to steal a part of the Void Elf groups and their own identity and legacy, for sure.. so you can easily understand why I, and quite a lot of other Sin'dorei fans, feel the same concerning the Sunfury or in general even more Blood Elves in the Alliance...Void Elves can't be undone, but now there should be a limit about how much they can get from the parent race, it's time to start to grow up alone, and write their own history, hoping the Humans of the Alliance they so quickly joined, don't take and hog all their spotlight anyway like they usually do with the other Alliance races....
    Last edited by Synvanas; 2021-12-20 at 02:50 AM.

  16. #576
    Quote Originally Posted by Synvanas View Post
    ... Just because they were former Blood Elves, it doesn't mean they have to take everything, otherwise there will always be bitter Sin'dorei players who consider the Void Elves "thieves" for this reason, or a meme/Mary Sue race that was given to the Alliance only because of aesthetics, and that's not good for the Void Elves, at all.
    ...
    That's why the Horde got Blood Elves in the first place, despite there being far more lore contradictions than that beaten horse Garithos.

    The whole Void Elf contradiction could have been easily avoided if: upon her return Alleria taught the "Dark Side" to the High Elves that were already in the Alliance to gain advantage in the war against the Horde. (The Horde she despises.) And then some Blood Elves, like Umbric and his followers also departed the Horde to join her in the Alliance. The rift then blows up and irradiates all these elves, bam Void Elf.
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Blizzard do what the players want all the time.

  17. #577
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    If only that void enchant could have purple star and deep face effect like the void wings on the heritage armor.
    I just really really wish they'll add those void wings as a back item too so I can use them with all of my other mogs. It's so annoying they're tied to that collar and I can't use them with anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    It should also be noted that not all who were part of Magister Umbric's group were scholars (magisters, astromancers, arcanists, researchers, etc.) since we can also see Ren'dorei Umbral Rangers (hunters) and Ren'dorei Veiled Riftblades (warriors). Which is evidence that Magister Umbric's followers were far more than what some people here might think.

    Hence why it's not surprising that the Ren'dorei were able to field significant and considerable military forces in BfA...
    Yeah there's a lot more to the Void Elves, especially as we learn that they never intended for the Horde to have this power and it would have been a weapon against them. They also still see themselves as a part of Silvermoon and are fighting for it - they just really hate the Horde.

    The way I see it is that they're a renegade political & military insurgent faction of Silvermoon, and the Alliance is helping them for a potential coup. Very similar to IRL how US&EU might arm and supply an insurgent group to overthrow a pro-Russia government.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    To be honest, blood elves were willing to rejoin the Alliance even after Garithos. It was a dwarf spy and night elf incursions in their lands that alienated them from the Alliance in the first place. Even Lor'themar wanted to rejoin the Alliance, and eventually a group of blood elves who claim to did not like the Horde did rejoin the Alliance few years later - void elves. So, you repeating that blood elves can't forget Garithos is mute argument, because blood elves never pulled that argument themselves. Even when his memory was still fresh (TBC introduction).

    In the same logic, I can say that blood elves would never side with orcs, who burned Eversong during Second War, or with trolls who butcher their kin for centuries, or undead who only recently brought the apocalypse to their homeland. I'm sure you'd argue, that it was not the same Horde who invaded Quel'thalas, it was not the same trolls and that undead were enslaved by Lich King... that is right and blood elves are certainly aware of that. In the same logic, human faction in the current Alliance are not the same human as Garithos and his followers.
    I'd argue that whatever reasons they use to try and morally justify it to their people, the reality is likely just a logistics issue because of their isolation after they were suddenly isolated and heavily weakened.

    All of the human kingdoms nearby had been decimated, and any allies nearby were being staunchly anti-intervention and wouldn't help them (Gilneas,Wildhammer,Dalaran). You have Sylvanas blocking trade on the west coast, Amani incursions in the East and if they get past them they have the Dragonmaw to deal with South.

    Horde staging an attack from Loderon wouldn't be an unrealistic scenario and there wouldn't be much the Alliance could do to get there in time to help. The alternative for the Horde would have been to make an alliance with the Amani instead, and then the Elves would really be screwed. Joining the Alliance would have made them a target for aggression, whereas alligning with the Forsaken grants them protection from attacks and keeps their main trade routes open.
    Last edited by rogueMatthias; 2021-12-20 at 01:28 PM.
    BASIC CAMPFIRE for WARCHIEF UK Prime Minister!

  18. #578
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    Yes, you're right, I recall it now. They might feel that their potential is wasted. Sunfury were Kael's finest, they might definitely feel frustrated being assigned to Ghostlands for years. That is another reason for them to feel bitter towards sin'dorei leadership and not obey Rommath when he forbid Void studies.
    The only thing that might stand in the way of this, is if we speculate that ALL returned Sunfury became void elves.
    I don't think that would be the case because of the Mana Bomb that Garrosh had ordered.

    Let me explain:
    Mana Bombs were creations made by the Blood Elves. No other Elven race has ever made these. But we need to be specific. It was only Sunfury Blood Elves who posessed the knowledge to actually make the mana bombs and they were setting them off all across Netherstorm and Terrokkar. I believe the Draenei and Scryers were concerned that if Kael'thas set off another bomb, it would destroy Netherstorm.

    Now, Garrosh ordered the creation of the mana bomb. It's possible that many of the Sunfury Mages remained as Blood Elves (and by extension, created Garrosh's mana bomb.)

  19. #579
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    The only thing that might stand in the way of this, is if we speculate that ALL returned Sunfury became void elves.
    I don't think that would be the case because of the Mana Bomb that Garrosh had ordered.

    Let me explain:
    Mana Bombs were creations made by the Blood Elves. No other Elven race has ever made these. But we need to be specific. It was only Sunfury Blood Elves who posessed the knowledge to actually make the mana bombs and they were setting them off all across Netherstorm and Terrokkar. I believe the Draenei and Scryers were concerned that if Kael'thas set off another bomb, it would destroy Netherstorm.

    Now, Garrosh ordered the creation of the mana bomb. It's possible that many of the Sunfury Mages remained as Blood Elves (and by extension, created Garrosh's mana bomb.)
    I don't think that all Sunfury would need to become void elves, but mostly those who practised void magic or come into contact with the Void. I'm sure there were also Sunfury who have nothing to do with the Void. These sunfury would have little reason to pursue that knowledge and might very well blend into Silvermoon society, focusing on Arcane, Fire magic, etc.

    Nice thing about thalassians is that they are not monolithic in their ideas. You can see diverse opinions and reactions among them. For example, let's take Purge of Dalaran and Sunreavers. We've seen justified anger towards the Alliance, but most notably, towards Jaina. On the other hand, during Legion, Sunreavers were willing to help Kirin Tor to bolster Dalaran's defenses and Aethas worked with Order of Tirasgarde closely, providing crucial information about Felo'melorn for a Mage character. One might wonder why would Sunreavers even bother with Dalaran after the Purge, but I'd say they realized it was instrumented by Jaina and her followers and once she left Kirin Tor, they were open to mend wounds with them for benefit of all. We see similar patterns in thalassian relations to other factions too - blood elves seem to address their hate towards certain people who brought them harm (Arthas, Jaina, Garithos), rather then general factions (Undead, Kirin Tor, Alliance).

    That would apply to Sunfury too. I can imagine some would like to renew their old friendships with the Alliance and there would certainly be elves who feel all bridges between them and the Alliance burned long time ago. Both scenarios are possible and to be honest, it is realistic scenario. In this case, there is opportunity for Sunfury ex-Astromancers to be still interested in the Void and kept their research going, resulting in Umbric reaching out for them and later become void elves, and other Sunfury who integrated to sin'dorei loyal to the Horde, creating mana bomb for Garrosh or simply staying with their people, within their homeland.

    Quote Originally Posted by Synvanas View Post
    Oh, the Blood Elves pulled that card more than once, they did...maybe not the ones who are more forgiving like Lor'themar or Liadrin, or the ones who are likely completely oblivious to it like Magister Umbric since he was all comfortable sleeping in Quel'thalas while the Sunfury were suffering, but the ones who were THERE in Lordaeron fighting for the Alliance, they do pull that card, and they get very angry too...just like Rommath, who, like all the Sunfury, was there that fateful day, and in Lor'themar's short story he becomes extremely angry recalling it, talking about a "monumental betrayal"...and yes, from the reaction of Rommath, we can surmise that would be the reaction of EVERY Sin'dorei who was there proudly fighting for the Alliance, and then they were imprisoned and almost killed despite their loyalty. No, the Sunfury should not join the Alliance, ever. Just being in Stormwind around the Humans would make them recall those painful moments of their lives, not to mention a Human commander on a distant warfront from Stormwind could easily do something like that to them once again in the future, there's no way to know how many Garithos symphatizers are in the Alliance after all (even after his death he could have followers)...especially because we know the Alliance still requires their soldiers to sacrifice themselves in order to reach their objectives, like seen in Nazmir...even if those were volunteers and there was no malicious intent behind it, there's no way a Sunfury would stand for something like that again, imagine the terrible PTSD they would have... no, please, let the Sunfury rest, in their own Kingdom and among their own people who forgave them...no more pain from the Alliance for them, please. They have suffered enough in their lives, even despite all their bad decisions they took under Prince Kael'thas.
    You are still bringing the "collective guilt" argument, while blood elves showed many times they do not apply collective guilt.

    1) They wanted to rejoin the Alliance two times already after Garithos. For the first time before they joined the Horde, for the second time during Pandaria campaign. They showed their will to work with humans already.

    2) They do not blame all orcs for burning of Eversong Woods during Second War.

    3) They do not blame all trolls for butchering their people for centuries.

    4) They do not blame undead (Forsaken) for bringing apocalypse to their nation.

    Then explain to me, while even if they can go past centuries of blood feud with trolls, forgive orcs burning of their beloved forest and understand that Forsaken, who just few years ago were part of the same Scourge that brought their race to nearly extinction, can't find out that current Alliance is different? Garithos was commander of Lordaeron forces, humans in current Alliance are mostly Stormwindian. It was not Stormwind who is responsible. Using this argument, blood elves would not be able to work with Forsaken, because they are former Lordaeronians (bringing back painful Garithos memories) and they are also undead (bringing back Scourge invasion trauma). Is it a case? No, it isn't.

    This argument really leads nowhere. It would be somewhat valid if Garithos would be either alive and active within the Alliance (he is not) or if he would be recognized as Alliance hero (he is not). Current Alliance forget Garithos and does not remind him in any way.


    High Astromancer Solarian is literally the antithesis of what a Void Elf should be. She probably didn't even study the Void all that much, she just wanted to wield its power for...more personal power, and that's it. Then, not only she succumbs to the whispers but also becomes a Void entity herself..this is...not what a Void Elf, who is all about restrain and control, and using the Void for "good", should be at all. Not to mention, on aggro, and when she kills a player, she proudly talks about the Sin'dorei and the Sunwell despite the Void. As I said, not all Void users are automatically going to join the Void Elves anyway, after all.
    Sure, not all void users need to join Void elves, that is not my point. My point was that the elves who have experience with the Void are most likely candidates who later become void elves. Also, Solarian did not achieve what void elves do, but her research might be of interest for them, learning of her mistakes and pursuing it elsewhere. They have the training she did not have. They might succeed where she failed.


    Then, since they are both Thalassians, I should ask for a group of Void Elf Riftblades who had second thoughts about joining the Alliance and fighting their own people, for whatever reason Blizzard could easily conjure...because of that, they leave the Alliance and return to Quel'thalas, Lor'themar forgives them, on the condition they stay in the Ghostlands and stop studying the Void, and they share every information they have about the Void Elves with the Blood Elves. They do all that, so they are fully forgiven and reintegrated as citizens and soldiers, so the Blood Elves could deploy Void Elf troops too now when they want to, and the Blood Elves players get to play a Void Elf model, too.

    You...don't really like any of this, right? I guess you really don't..in fact, I agree and I feel very greedy right now just because I have written something like this. It would indeed mean to steal a part of the Void Elf groups and their own identity and legacy, for sure.. so you can easily understand why I, and quite a lot of other Sin'dorei fans, feel the same concerning the Sunfury or in general even more Blood Elves in the Alliance...Void Elves can't be undone, but now there should be a limit about how much they can get from the parent race, it's time to start to grow up alone, and write their own history, hoping the Humans of the Alliance they so quickly joined, don't take and hog all their spotlight anyway like they usually do with the other Alliance races....
    If I were you, I'd stop assuming what others think.

    I will surprise you, I would not mind if they would imploy story like this, but I don't think it's really possible, given stigma Void has for blood elves. I would actually really like story in which void elves come to help Silvermoon and blood elves and aid their nation. For me, it's more interesting plot then faction conflict all over again.

    And no, there are blood elf fans open to the possibility of Sunfury turning into void elves, like Tanaria or Beloren. I agree with you that void elves now need their own focus and development, but it does not mean you have to sever them from all thalassian aspects. They are still elves of Quel'thalas.

    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post
    I just really really wish they'll add those void wings as a back item too so I can use them with all of my other mogs. It's so annoying they're tied to that collar and I can't use them with anything else.
    Oh yes, I hope for that too. Shadowlands gave us more diverse back transmogs then just capes, so there might still be hope.


    I'd argue that whatever reasons they use to try and morally justify it to their people, the reality is likely just a logistics issue because of their isolation after they were suddenly isolated and heavily weakened.

    All of the human kingdoms nearby had been decimated, and any allies nearby were being staunchly anti-intervention and wouldn't help them (Gilneas,Wildhammer,Dalaran). You have Sylvanas blocking trade on the west coast, Amani incursions in the East and if they get past them they have the Dragonmaw to deal with South.

    Horde staging an attack from Loderon wouldn't be an unrealistic scenario and there wouldn't be much the Alliance could do to get there in time to help. The alternative for the Horde would have been to make an alliance with the Amani instead, and then the Elves would really be screwed. Joining the Alliance would have made them a target for aggression, whereas alligning with the Forsaken grants them protection from attacks and keeps their main trade routes open.
    That's logical explanation. Night elves faced continuous agression from the Horde, leading to Burning of Teldrassil.

    It's funny that the situation is vastly different for blood elves now. Undercity has been destroyed, Forsaken presence greatly diminished and Alliance rebuild Stromgarde and started expanding their influence in northern parts of the continent. I hope we will see reclamation of Gilneas soon enough.
    Last edited by Vaedan; 2021-12-20 at 05:49 PM.

  20. #580
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    I don't think that all Sunfury would need to become void elves, but mostly those who practised void magic or come into contact with the Void. I'm sure there were also Sunfury who have nothing to do with the Void. These sunfury would have little reason to pursue that knowledge and might very well blend into Silvermoon society, focusing on Arcane, Fire magic, etc.

    Nice thing about thalassians is that they are not monolithic in their ideas. You can see diverse opinions and reactions among them. For example, let's take Purge of Dalaran and Sunreavers. We've seen justified anger towards the Alliance, but most notably, towards Jaina. On the other hand, during Legion, Sunreavers were willing to help Kirin Tor to bolster Dalaran's defenses and Aethas worked with Order of Tirasgarde closely, providing crucial information about Felo'melorn for a Mage character. One might wonder why would Sunreavers even bother with Dalaran after the Purge, but I'd say they realized it was instrumented by Jaina and her followers and once she left Kirin Tor, they were open to mend wounds with them for benefit of all. We see similar patterns in thalassian relations to other factions too - blood elves seem to address their hate towards certain people who brought them harm (Arthas, Jaina, Garithos), rather then general factions (Undead, Kirin Tor, Alliance).

    That would apply to Sunfury too. I can imagine some would like to renew their old friendships with the Alliance and there would certainly be elves who feel all bridges between them and the Alliance burned long time ago. Both scenarios are possible and to be honest, it is realistic scenario. In this case, there is opportunity for Sunfury ex-Astromancers to be still interested in the Void and kept their research going, resulting in Umbric reaching out for them and later become void elves, and other Sunfury who integrated to sin'dorei loyal to the Horde, creating mana bomb for Garrosh or simply staying with their people, within their homeland.
    Real speculation time, but:
    Could Umbric have been part of the Horde who took down Kael'thas in TBC?
    We are told, in canon lore that it was Horde forces that dealt with Kael'thas (twice as well.) Could it be that Umbric was a blood elf, part of the Horde, who worked to take down Kael'thas and saw the power of the Void for himself. Perhaps he was part of the force that took down Solarian?

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