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  1. #341
    Tbh feels like they want to release new stuff disregarding everything that happened lorewise...
    N'zoth has been planning this ever since he corrupted deathwing 10.000years ago; cataclysm was the next move, and then silence till now...when finally we get 2 major lore characters like Azshara and Nzoth they simply look like a sidestory.
    Just look at where money was spent: all cgi is sylvanas and saurfang, but the game is leading elsewhere, there is no consistency, story makes no sense, its just random shitt thrown at us.

  2. #342
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aliven View Post
    It was haphazard because blizzard want nothing to doo with bfa and want to end it and forget it. When Shadowlands will be close to release there will be a blog post titled something like "Why BFA didnt work out how we wanted and what valueable lessons that would teach us for the future of game" or some bullshit.

    Then they will ignore all alpha and beta feedback like always and be suprised why people are unhappy or why systems are fucked up.
    Well that BfA didn't meet expectations should be news to no one, so I do imagine that any postmortem they have on BfA will probably be more apologetic than exulting. What we know of Shadowlands does seem more optimistic, though; as they're addressing the shortcomings of BfA more directly. I don't know if I necessarily buy into the whole "they ignored Alpha/Beta feedback" thing personally - I think it was more that they addressed the concerns but were just wrong in their conclusions, which is something that happens. The response to Beta testers about the Azerite Traits, for instance, was that the higher caliber of gear available beyond 8.0 would address the shortcomings that the testers saw - and I was a Beta tester for BfA for provided them my concerns and analysis of the system in question. This didn't prove to be the case, and later on Essences were introduced to shore up the system (which helped somewhat). The issues with BfA kind of extend beyond any one case, though; from storytelling to game systems to class pruning.

    People are always unhappy with something, and very vocal about said unhappiness. It can be difficult to sift through the metric tonnes of unhelpful criticism to find the nuggets of actual constructive criticism that might actually help address shortcomings and soon-to-be broken systems.
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  3. #343
    Legendary! Flurryfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Not that it matters to anyone else but one possible explanation for the final raid cinematic being so short was the rather expansive cinematics that the expansion had earlier. I haven't bothered to count it all up because I'm not that anal about it but the sum total of BFA cinematics seems higher than previously. Just that most of them came out in the earlier parts of the expansion.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rHaaLm-jwA

    Note: I went looking for the stitched-together cinematics that together made up the Varok-Saurfang Mak'gor cinematic (23 minutes) and found this one as well. Here is a YouTube of all of the BfA cinematics: 37'23". That's quite a bit.
    Then it just means bad planning i guess. Instead of having the climax of the story in the end, we had it midway with Sylvanas and now N'zoths encounter feel a bit...weak.

    Maybe the rumors were true? That after setting up Shadowlands with Sylvanas betraying the Horde, the rest of the expansion is just a bit "filler".
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  4. #344
    You do understand it's the internet right? Blizzard could literally give everyone $100 everyday you login into WOW and people would still complain

  5. #345
    The Patient outflow's Avatar
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    because everyone got a cinematic of me killing him. It was great for me but I can understand why nobody else was that excited by it.
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  6. #346
    Legendary! Flurryfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coblade14 View Post
    You do understand it's the internet right? Blizzard could literally give everyone $100 everyday you login into WOW and people would still complain
    But it would be a different form of complaining and you would hear people disagree.

    So lets not go and say, that every complaint is the same here.
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  7. #347
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    Why didn't Bowser just build a wall high enough Mario couldn't jump over?

    That is what some of the comments in this thread amount to.
    .:: Welcome to MMO-C Off-topic, where most people believe that leftism means being capitalism's HR department ::.

  8. #348
    Cinema is 10 seconds long of us whipping out our dicks and blasting it to death with a crotch laser.

    It's a sad lazy DBZ ripoff.

  9. #349
    Warchief Wangming's Avatar
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    This is funny, Half this thread only realized Blizzard writing is low tier cheesy cartoon level and are angry. The other half is still in denial and does not understand what level of writing people would accept. (Hint: Give me enough alphabet soup to throw up. The end result will be better)

  10. #350
    Long time member and lurker - I don't post often and over the years my interest in WoW has waned to the point of being almost nonexistent now. I don't have an active sub and as of right now have no interest in resubbing but do occasionally read these boards because of habit I guess. Many of you seem to expect innovation and good writing from Bizzard. I don't really think WoW has been innovative since vanilla and it could be argued their writing has never been good. Imagine though for a second that BFA ended with N'Zoth winning. Him succeeding in changing the face of Azeroth. Now THAT would be innovative. Instead of Shadowlands, what could follow would be a true Old Gods expansion where we, the heroes, has to deal with the consequences of our failure in a world no longer our own, trying to reverse what has been done.

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    This is funny, Half this thread only realized Blizzard writing is low tier cheesy cartoon level and are angry. The other half is still in denial and does not understand what level of writing people would accept. (Hint: Give me enough alphabet soup to throw up. The end result will be better)
    Oh I know that since MoP. I've more been giving them the benefit of the doubt on gameplay and to be honest BFA was just atrociously bad. Systems designed to timegate you into oblivion, RNG aspects to gearing everywhere and just an overall quality I don't expect from a company such as Blizzard.

    Unless they pull some serious miracle for Shadowlands which let's face it they won't I'm not returning to this heap of a mess.

  12. #352
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Thinking about this a bit, I thought of a hypothetical scenario that explains a good deal of what happened with BfA as concerns both its fundamental middle and ending. I think the content we're now seeing in 8.3 was actually intended to actually be part of 8.2/8.2.5 somewhere - with a bit more lead-in and build-up as well as an external portion of Ny'alotha we'd be able to visit and acting as a quest hub of a sort. 8.3 and presumably 8.3.5 would've actually been an SoO 2.0 kind of deal, we'll call it the Invasion of Stormwind raid, a kind of inverted Battle of Dazar'alor where the Horde besieges Stormwind (an event foreshadowed in "Before the Storm") and the Alliance defends their capitol, fighting off the Horde and leading to Sylvanas' heel-face turn and ouster as Warchief.

    Discontent with BfA and poor handling of its story and gameplay led to the developers to opt to cut it severely - transitioning development resources away from BfA and on to Shadowlands in a sort of Kansas City Shuffle in the hope that Shadowlands would make BfA a stumble in the same way Legion popularly did for WoD. The faction conflict was ended early, back in 8.2.5, and the planned Ny'alotha raid that would've preceded the faction conflict's actual ending/raid content was instead shoehorned in as BfA's closing act as a filler patch to occupy the playerbase until 9.0 drops later on. This would explain why 8.2.5 really feels like BfA's ending, albeit also truncated and occurring abruptly, and the closing cinematic for 8.3 feels so lacking - all the content for Ny'alotha that would've referred to or led to my proposal for 8.3/8.3.5 was cut out of the cut-scenes, leaving only the ragged end of the Ny'alotha arc going into the next expansion.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
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  13. #353
    The Unstoppable Force
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    Because it was a terrible letdown obviously.

    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  14. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    I don't get it.

    Nyalotha book-ends Uldir, with lots of parallels in each raid. We spend the entire 8.3 patch taking over and re-energizing the reorigination array. In the raid itself we are placing anchor-points to target the thing.

    Then we get to the final boss, fighting in his literal brain, at the end of it we succumb to his madness but then get a whisper from the Speaker Magni that allows us to rally and we use our heart of Azeroth to act as the final anchor point and to channel the reorigination array. Ending N'Zoth and freeing Azeroth from the corruption of the final Old God.

    Now I get that there's still the loose-end of the giant freakin' sword in Silithis, though there's an implication from Magni that now that N'Zoth is gone Azeroth will be able to finally heal herself. Kinda like using anti-biotics to cure a nasty infection which then let's a septic cut heal up since the body isn't fighting the infection anymore.

    But what exactly is the problem?
    That and Sargeras only wanted to kill Azeroth because he had visions that she would fall to corruption from the old gods and destroy the universe.

    Now that we've stopped that, Sargeras would willingly team up with us and Azerote to purge the void from the universe.
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  15. #355
    The good thing about these kinds of threads is how you can always easily identify the blizzard sheep and ignore them in every discussion from now on, because no matter what happens, they will always defed blizz to the death. We have here the laziest, shortest, most boring and uninspired ending imaginable for N'zoth/the naga threat, and they still try to claim its the communities fault for "expecting too much". Its tthe same type of people who defend Wc3 reforged. Fckn hilarious.

    http://www.vanion.eu/kolumne/world-o...weiterung-5189
    Ah yes and btw, for all of you who are asking "how would youve done it", the link is a fanfic from some german fan (so its in german, sorry to everyone who cant understand it) and its fantastic. a little old and therefore somewhat outdated in lore (for example he doesnt mention the void lords etc) but the basic ideas in there are sooooo much better, it hurts. thats the proper way a naga/n'zoth xpac shouldve been done
    Last edited by Houle; 2020-02-14 at 06:32 PM.
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  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Six years hyping up the old god threat, since Sargeras was so terrified of them that is why he created the Legion in the first place.
    False. Sargeras can and did easily go around destroying planets corrupted with minions of the void without the burning legion. He was afraid of nothing. The other titans stopped him from killing Azeroth, because she was fabled to be the most special titan of all, due to her power levels being over 9000. The burning legion was created to deal with the other titans interfering.


    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Four years hyping N'zoth's master plan, what with the Emerald Nightmare raid and the whispers from Xal'atath.
    During the raid N'zoth keeps thanking us for executing his plan. The current belief is that he wanted us to "kill" him, and "losing" was part of his plan. He may currently be inside the dagger, since we freed Xal'atath to make room for him in it.

    Or he could have planned for us to free Xal'atath so she can go do something to revive him in a more powerful form while we think we defeated him.


    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    lol he had no plan at all and falls over to a DBZ laser beam, having accomplished absolutely nothing.
    *citation needed

    Canon game lore says we acted according to his plan (of which we do not yet know the details).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    I agree, the Old Gods demonstrated that they were absolutely NO threat Sargeras couldn't handle.
    I certainly hope you'd know that since it was plainly stated, what, a decade ago?

    Killing the old gods was as simple a task as picking one's nose. The pantheon of titans stood in the way of Sargeras, protecting the old gods. Because they didn't want unborn titans like Azeroth to die as a side effect of killing the old gods.


    A real life equivalent would be: shooting someone is easy. You could off any random person you meet today. However, you'd go to jail and/or be killed yourself. If you managed to escape, you'd spend your life on the run. The task is simple, the implications and aftermath is complex. Same for Sargeras going around and killing off 1/10th of all the planets in the universe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by styil View Post
    I feel like the boars at Durotar and the kobolds at Elwynn Forest have had more impact than N'Zoth.
    Grats on being one of the people who has never read a quest text then?
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  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by eduwneso View Post
    Still, you are comparing movies, to a game, and not even a single player game created and played just for the story (From Telltales for example), you are comparing it to an MMO, if you truly can't see that, well, I think you expect quite a lot dude...

    It's not the same, try with another MMO please, I can't show any examples because I know nothing of other MMOS
    Are you absolutely daft?

    I'm not comparing a movie to a game. I'm comparing a story to another story. Looks like you're grasping at straws to invalidate my argument.

    Both are a decade+ in the making. One handled the ending well. One did not, at all.

    Just because it's an MMO doesn't mean the writing capabilities can't be compared to other things. What the hell is the matter with your logic?

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    But what exactly is the problem?
    Personally, I have a problem with the writing when a mere group of mortal, me and guild mates, are able to take down some of mightiest villains to walk on Azeroth etc.

    Some I can accept, Arthas. Garrosh. There were mortals like me until they went a little power hungry.

    But against Sargaeras, old gods, etc. I find that a little hard to accept. What is stop me now from taking over?

    I would preferred to our characters played a part, a big part, but it should not necessary be us. If I use LoTR as a example. The big hero did not destroy the ring. It was a halfling. Aragon et al played a big part sure, but there were others. I would have preferred if the writing were more along this line rather me save the day. Again.

    And we do not necessary have to kill any of these fable characters. Just defeat them. Push them back.

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    Yes there was A LOT of build up, and yes we did win with a meme beam in the end. But we were never going to lose, unfortunately. N'zoth did take control of us before the heart broke us out, he did "win". There are only a few bosses who have ever won, the lich king killed us, argus killed us, queen azshara free'd n'zoth despite losing, and n'zoth took over our minds but azeroth saved us.

    Sure, it wasn't the ending a lot of us wanted, and maybe it felt rushed, but this was a storyline building since EN - Is that really rushed?

    Truly, what did we expect? lol
    Uh... the N'zoth specific portion of the old god story started in Cata. Cata, Pandaland and Legion were all specifically entirely about N'zoth. I can't speak to WoD there, but WoD was more generically old god than N'zoth specifically.

    Vanilla, TBC and WotLK were also old god expansions, with more focus on the other old gods and less on N'zoth. They're the N'zoth origin story, more or less. They explain how we helped N'zoth become more powerful by defeating his rivals.


    The Story of WoW (aka how N'zoth tried to rule the universe):

    Vanilla: we learn that we are created via old god corruption of the titans work. We are the children of N'zoth, and other old gods are around trying to kill our planet. We stop one of the old gods that we find, which was believed to be impossible previously. This is when we first begin executing N'zoth's plan in creating us: we eliminate one of his rivals.

    TBC: we learn that one of the titans is also trying to stop the old gods, and will kill us as a side effect. We don't want to die, so we stop him. This is the second step in executing N'zoth's plan, we prevent Sargeras from killing N'zoth.

    WotLK: we learn that another old god created the Lich King and has been controlling him through the throne in Northrend. We kill both of them. This is the third step in executing N'zoth's plan, eliminating another rival.

    Cata: we find out N'zoth made Deathwing go insane and try to kill off large parts of the planet. We defeat Deathwing, but, we still help N'zoth... we convince the dragon aspects to give up their power from the titans to beat Deathwing, giving N'zoth more control over the planet. The fourth step in N'zoth's plan.

    Pandaria: we find out that Pandaria still exists and is corrupted with the heart of Y'Shaarj, a rival that N'zoth thought he need not worry about due to being killed by the titans. Garrosh attempts to revive this old god so that he can use the power to defeat the Alliance. We learn a lot about prophecies around the final old god, related factions like Klaxxi and Mogu, and introduce Wrathion and Ra-Den as key players in the N'zoth story. We ultimately remove the remaining rival old god, the fifth step in N'zoth's plan.

    WoD: a bit of a sidestory, the real purpose is to find a way to get the Legion back to Azeroth. Unclear if this is part of N'zoth's plan or not. He may have done so on purpose so that we could defeat Sargeras for him in Legion, or that could have been improvised later. The alternate timeline thing also leaves open a doorway to a universe where the old gods are still alive. They could come back at any time.

    Legion: we face off against Sargeras to save N'zoth from certain death (oh and Azeroth too). We save N'zoth but oopsie let Azeroth get mortally wounded. This makes it easier for N'zoth to corrupt her, but he can't allow her to die. The sixth step in N'zoth's plan is complete.

    BFA: we eliminate G'huun, potentially a N'zoth rival (but probably not) and learn how to kill old gods more effectively. Previous old gods were killed while imprisoned, so this is important as we would not otherwise be able to kill N'zoth. Unclear if this is part of N'zoth's plan.

    But we learn to heal Azeroth, which N'zoth needs us to do so she doesn't die before he corrupts her. We have a bit of a detour with the faction war bits, as N'zoth softens up our numbers. He doesn't want too many of us alive. Definitely the seventh step of N'zoth's plan.

    The rest is more straightforward, and then obscured. We execute step eight by freeing N'zoth from the titan prison. We indirectly send off Sylvanas, Azshara and Xal'atath in search of the "true throne of power" unsure which of them may be acting in N'zoth's best interests (potentially all of them). Then finally begin step nine. We go to N'zoth, our father, and fall to his corruption. We stab him with the empty dagger, like he planned. Then we use what we learned in Uldir to "kill" him. It is unclear if this was part of the plan or not. We won't know until Shadowlands (or beyond).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Alvito View Post
    Only 1 old God is completely dead. They are much like the loa, when killed they recharge and eventually can come back. So in his case being soaked in azerite for an extended period should have some pretty extreme results.
    Blizzard has directly stated that all of the old gods except N'zoth were fully dead by the start of BFA. This was in response to people speculating about the images of C'thun and Yogg Saron in Uldir.

    But: dead doesn't mean the same thing for old gods as it does for mortals. Among other things, dead old gods go to a void realm to regenerate when killed. Similar to how demons go to a fel realm to regenerate when killed. For a while Sargeras had made that regeneration for demons instant, so they could just keep coming back. We've slowed it down, but the demons still regenerate unless we go to the fel universe and kill them for real.

    Given that the next expansion teaches us about how our own death realm works and how souls of people on Azeroth transform and regenerate on death, it is very likely setting the stage for the old gods to regenerate in the expansion after Shadowlands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    Why didn't Bowser just build a wall high enough Mario couldn't jump over?

    That is what some of the comments in this thread amount to.
    That's what most of the comments on all of MMO-C and Wowhead amount to.

    And if Bowser did build a wall high enough, they'd say the story was boring and contrived.
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  20. #360
    Warchief Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kharill View Post
    Oh I know that since MoP. I've more been giving them the benefit of the doubt on gameplay and to be honest BFA was just atrociously bad. Systems designed to timegate you into oblivion, RNG aspects to gearing everywhere and just an overall quality I don't expect from a company such as Blizzard.

    Unless they pull some serious miracle for Shadowlands which let's face it they won't I'm not returning to this heap of a mess.
    We can only hope. The premise of the expansion is already stupid and forshadows a bunch of dumb retcons, but if they do the unpruning and the level squish right enough, the leveling might not suck anymore. Oh and finall in 2020 we will be able to change eye color during character customization. Well unless you are a draenei, elf, undead, Death Knight or Demon Hunter.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post

    The Story of WoW (aka how N'zoth tried to rule the universe):
    That's some insane level mental gymnastics you are trying to pull in a deperate attemp to paint N'Zoth as some expert manipulator and Blizzard as the geniuses who are telling a cohesive story instead of the mess we are given.

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