Thread: about "DK"

  1. #1

    Unhappy about "DK"

    when they are going to remodel the DK? they can't go on like this, they are very bad and very slow .... they don't work. should allow them to use 2H weapons and should have a variety of auras, at the player's choice, they should finally have something interesting that makes them attractive, because right now I would never play it, is that for that the DH is better , in everything. and the 2 are hero classes !!! It is unforgivable how forgotten this class is ... and beware, an aura is not an icon is an AURA. YOU MUST SEE THAT YOU HAVE AN AURA ... be incredible, what happens here is that blizzard or has no imagination, or just take the money and spend everything ... I prefer DK to DH, but ... how things are ... I stay with DH.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Capultro View Post
    when they are going to remodel the DK? they can't go on like this, they are very bad and very slow .... they don't work. should allow them to use 2H weapons and should have a variety of auras, at the player's choice, they should finally have something interesting that makes them attractive, because right now I would never play it, is that for that the DH is better , in everything. and the 2 are hero classes !!! It is unforgivable how forgotten this class is ... and beware, an aura is not an icon is an AURA. YOU MUST SEE THAT YOU HAVE AN AURA ... be incredible, what happens here is that blizzard or has no imagination, or just take the money and spend everything ... I prefer DK to DH, but ... how things are ... I stay with DH.
    Frost is in a weird spot (and majority of DKs do not like the Breath spec), Blood and Unholy are in pretty okay spots everything-wise.

    DKs were never known to be a mobile class, so being "very slow" is kind of a niche to them. People just want the 2h Frost back so when they do reach their target, they get those juicy Obliterates out so that the lack of mobility is worth it.

    DHs are a plague in WoW as they do everything other classes do, except they do it with ease.

  3. #3
    If I have to be completely honest, I'm currently enjoying my DK, with the only exception being Breath of Sindragosa.

    I've been playing UH through S1-3, and I must say that all things considered, it's a well rounded spec. It's not a nobrainer2button class (like DH and many other), so it feels engaging to play and challenging to master - there's always something to press.

    Now that Icecap got slightly buffed I decided to refresh myself and went Frost/Blood for S4, even though Icecap is still about 8% overall dps loss compared to BoS. But I have yet to decide how I ultimately feel about these 2 specs.

    So far I like Frost's numbers, even though luckers still own me with their corruption procs sometimes. There's still not too many buttons to press, but having an average downtime of approx. 10 sec on Pillar feels quite satisfying.

    Blood is stressful. In M+12 and above my HP starts spiking in quite big portions, so my heart is sometimes banging in the heat of battle. It also doesn't have too many buttons, but the tanking role by itself feels quite engaging and challenging, so overall I'm rather enjoying Blood as well.

    But all this is just me though. I do only M+ and arenas, and the DK feels fine to me. I can understand that others have other expectations.

    And finally, as ALWAYS, I will say that nomatter what.. I DO prefer the DK of the past, with no specific roles to the specs, with pressenses, 1H/2H Frost freedom of choice, etc. etc.
    Last edited by Greengrim; 2020-02-14 at 10:26 AM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Capultro View Post
    when they are going to remodel the DK? they can't go on like this, they are very bad and very slow .... they don't work. should allow them to use 2H weapons and should have a variety of auras, at the player's choice, they should finally have something interesting that makes them attractive, because right now I would never play it, is that for that the DH is better , in everything. and the 2 are hero classes !!! It is unforgivable how forgotten this class is ... and beware, an aura is not an icon is an AURA. YOU MUST SEE THAT YOU HAVE AN AURA ... be incredible, what happens here is that blizzard or has no imagination, or just take the money and spend everything ... I prefer DK to DH, but ... how things are ... I stay with DH.
    I like how you took the time to embolden some parts but didn't take the time to properly structure your post or be coherent at all.

    DK is on the same level as other classes. They need some unpruning sure, but they definitely aren't forgotten.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Greengrim View Post
    If I have to be completely honest, I'm currently enjoying my DK, with the only exception being Breath of Sindragosa.

    I've been playing UH through S1-3, and I must say that all things considered, it's a well rounded spec. It's not a nobrainer2button class (like DH and many other), so it feels engaging to play and challenging to master - there's always something to press.

    Now that Icecap got slightly buffed I decided to refresh myself and went Frost/Blood for S4, even though Icecap is still about 8% overall dps loss compared to BoS. But I have yet to decide how I ultimately feel about these 2 specs.

    So far I like Frost's numbers, even though luckers still own me with their corruption procs sometimes. There's still not too many buttons to press, but having an average downtime of approx. 10 sec on Pillar feels quite satisfying.

    Blood is stressful. In M+12 and above my HP starts spiking in quite big portions, so my heart is sometimes banging in the heat of battle. It also doesn't have too many buttons, but the tanking role by itself feels quite engaging and challenging, so overall I'm rather enjoying Blood as well.

    But all this is just me though. I do only M+ and arenas, and the DK feels fine to me. I can understand that others have other expectations.

    And finally, as ALWAYS, I will say that nomatter what.. I DO prefer the DK of the past, with no specific roles to the specs, with pressenses, 1H/2H Frost freedom of choice, etc. etc.
    Presences were weird, they really only existed so that there was a tank stance - the other two either didn't do much (after Wrath) or did too much and didn't feel DK-y (Unholy Presence reducing GCD).

    I do miss Frost DK tank though. With Priest being the class that has two healer specs, DK would make sense thematically to have two tank specs. It'd have to be a spec that can do both DPS and tank though, but I feel like Blood should already be that kind of spec, considering they're not thematically any different from the other DK specs.

  5. #5
    Stood in the Fire Mightytasty's Avatar
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    Should make gorefiend’s grasp baseline to offset the lack of mobility.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    Presences were weird, they really only existed so that there was a tank stance - the other two either didn't do much (after Wrath) or did too much and didn't feel DK-y (Unholy Presence reducing GCD).
    The presences were awesome imho. Unholy presence made perfect sense as the Unholy spec itself revolves around necromancy and more specifically ghouls. And a lot of ghouls (most even?) go into frenzy so it's quite logical for the presence to provide movement speed and faster attacks.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by ymn View Post
    Frost is in a weird spot (and majority of DKs do not like the Breath spec), Blood and Unholy are in pretty okay spots everything-wise.

    DKs were never known to be a mobile class, so being "very slow" is kind of a niche to them. People just want the 2h Frost back so when they do reach their target, they get those juicy Obliterates out so that the lack of mobility is worth it.

    DHs are a plague in WoW as they do everything other classes do, except they do it with ease.
    Being slow and getting nothing in return is a pretty shit niche, as people have been pointing out since the infamous post regarding DK class fantasy at the beginning of Legion.

  8. #8
    OP says "they are very bad", but from my experience, frost and unholy dks are monsters, PvE and PvP.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Greengrim View Post
    The presences were awesome imho. Unholy presence made perfect sense as the Unholy spec itself revolves around necromancy and more specifically ghouls. And a lot of ghouls (most even?) go into frenzy so it's quite logical for the presence to provide movement speed and faster attacks.
    Presences were cool aesthetically, and could be brought back in the forms of minor glyphs like Rogue Detect.

    Shorter GCDs I don't really agree on, DKs are all about strength and being an unstoppable force, not speed. That's what the movement speed part of Unholy Presence was trying to do, and they instead made that baseline via Death's Advance's passive effect.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Galathir View Post
    Being slow and getting nothing in return is a pretty shit niche, as people have been pointing out since the infamous post regarding DK class fantasy at the beginning of Legion.
    it used to be ok when all specs had chain of ice which slowed enemy for 90% (decaying every 1 second ). but not now.

    it doesnt matter if I can kill an enemy player with 5 attacks ( which is by far not the case ) when I cant even get near them. any fight in arena against a monk is nightmare for me, specially of they are healers and they constantly run away from me. every gap closer DK has monks have 3 solutions for each.

    look at rogues or DHs. they easily do 5 times the burst DK can do in any spec and they can reach their target as fast as they want and rogues even have some very powerful slows and nightmarish amount of stuns and CCs.

    almost all other classes can and will outrun DKs and they have much better burst and damage output that they can inflict in a 5 second window and in top of all these, most other classes can easily heal themselves while DK needs to be in melee range and has to sacrifice damage for it to be able to slightly heal themselves.

    so TL;DR: if the enemy decides to kite you, they can and you will have zero gap closers that cant be countered and you are SCREWED.
    Last edited by LuminaL; 2020-02-14 at 12:04 PM.

  11. #11
    The Patient sykretts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ymn View Post
    Frost is in a weird spot (and majority of DKs do not like the Breath spec), Blood and Unholy are in pretty okay spots everything-wise.

    DKs were never known to be a mobile class, so being "very slow" is kind of a niche to them. People just want the 2h Frost back so when they do reach their target, they get those juicy Obliterates out so that the lack of mobility is worth it.

    DHs are a plague in WoW as they do everything other classes do, except they do it with ease.
    Hmmmm, I personally think all 3 specs are in a weird spot currently, not just frost. Just my opinion though, so here goes.

    Frost is supposedly meant to hit their enemy hard when they finally reach them, but currently i just make the :| face irl every time I'm out of the breath phase in instanced and outdoor content. It feels a bit better when i suddenly get a large haste proc and end up spamming oblits, but then it returns to the weak feeling rotation again.

    Blood, well, it's weird because while the gameplay loop feels good with the spec, the actual tuning is bad and it makes it feel worse in challenging content. I'm not a fan of tanking mythic raid bosses on patchwerk encounters and m+ above 14-15; the former because you can feel your heart race every time you take a huge auto attack hit and it does not feel good to know that even your self healing and your mastery shield won't really help you much in that situation. Gone are the days when DKs were also a parry tank. DKs just need better self-agency when it comes to absorbs or damage prevention. Bone shield and the high HP pool just isn't enough if then you're also gonna get chunked for 70% of it per melee hit. I dread tanking m+ keys with below average DPS (even though I end up completing them) because you can just feel the hurt dished out on the DK that much more, especially when vamp blood and IBF are down. Kiting 24/7 should never be how tanks play the game, it's no fun.

    Unholy. Yeah. This spec is not making sense currently, despite having high dps output, especially in AoE. Festering Strike once served the purpose of resetting runes and extending dots, which actively improved your gameplay loop even though it initially cost you 2 runes to use it. Now though, it only applies wounds, that's it, and it's too costly. It doesn't feel good in single target to have to wait a while to just apply wounds, and then wait another while to burst them. Without the festering might azerite trait, even bursting wounds would not feel empowering or good. That trait makes the spec, making everything hit harder. Even the buff to death coil was a band-aid fix for the spec doing too low damage outside bursting wounds.
    In WoD, festering strike encouraged the necrotic plague play style, by extending the debuff at just the right times to allow you to re-apply it at max stacks, provided you managed your runes right. If you fucked up by using 1-2 festering strikes in the minute window more than you're supposed to, you lost the stacks and had to re-build from scratch, which was kinda a noticeable DPS loss. This had a good skill cap which you could easily distinguish on both ST and AoE fights, because a full stack NP would make or break a dk's dps. I had a lot of fun with this on fights like Iskar. The setup time was very low because you were already maintaining the plague on your primary target, and then just spreading it with blood boil.
    Now though, the setup time is too long for both ST and AoE DPS, and it doesn't feel good. It does high damage to offset for that, so people still play it.
    More so than that, I miss having the choice of playing NP or Dark Arbiter. Both were high DPS, both very different play styles, and both fit the DK theme well.

    I'm eagerly awaiting the shadowlands alpha to see what, if any, changes they make to the specs. They're in desperate need of an overhaul post legion era.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by LuminaL View Post
    it used to be ok when all specs had chain of ice which slowed enemy for 90% (decaying every 1 second ). but not now.

    it doesnt matter if I can kill an enemy player with 5 attacks ( which is by far not the case ) when I cant even get near them. any fight in arena against a monk is nightmare for me, specially of they are healers and they constantly run away from me. every gap closer DK has monks have 3 solutions for each.

    look at rogues or DHs. they easily do 5 times the burst DK can do in any spec and they can reach their target as fast as they want and rogues even have some very powerful slows and nightmarish amount of stuns and CCs.

    almost all other classes can and will outrun DKs and they have much better burst and damage output that they can inflict in a 5 second window and in top of all these, most other classes can easily heal themselves while DK needs to be in melee range and has to sacrifice damage for it to be able to slightly heal themselves.

    so TL;DR: if the enemy decides to kite you, they can and you will have zero gap closers that cant be countered and you are SCREWED.
    I think you're trying to apply dungeon logic to arena. DK being easily kitable is just about the only correct thing you've mentioned. But that isn't such a great issue since DKs practically destroy whatever they can reach. Their arena playstyle is to mostly grind down as many people, as fast as possible, not to chase after a specific somebody. And no, rogue and DH don't deal more dmg, not in the burst, nor in total. With a well executed setup I can do 70-100k bursts as a 460 frost DK w/o corruptions in 3s. And other classes are not more durable either, DKs don't have only Death Strike (which many people don't even know how to use properly). In fact I would personally place DKs among the tankiest classes in arena currently.

  13. #13
    The Patient sykretts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greengrim View Post
    I think you're trying to apply dungeon logic to arena. DK being easily kitable is just about the only correct thing you've mentioned. But that isn't such a great issue since DKs practically destroy whatever they can reach. Their arena playstyle is to mostly grind down as many people, as fast as possible, not to chase after a specific somebody. And no, rogue and DH don't deal more dmg, not in the burst, nor in total. With a well executed setup I can do 70-100k bursts as a 460 frost DK w/o corruptions in 3s. And other classes are not more durable either, DKs don't have only Death Strike (which many people don't even know how to use properly). In fact I would personally place DKs among the tankiest classes in arena currently.
    This I can agree with. DKs, both frost and unholy, are tanky in PvP. Ever since we got a buff to our base HP and our self-healing, the spec feels quite strong in 1v1 situations vs almost all classes. I think fury warriors are the only other melee dps that out-heal us in pvp ( i fuckin hate them with a vengeance for it because of how unfair it is, even though i play a fury alt myself, but you know, it's an alt, not my main, and I don't want my main to be shat on ). Seen so many alliance try to get the better of me while i'm semi-afk in outdoor content, only to then watch me full heal and then unleash my army and kite them to death, only to get back in range of them to heal up, rinse repeat.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Greengrim View Post
    I think you're trying to apply dungeon logic to arena. DK being easily kitable is just about the only correct thing you've mentioned. But that isn't such a great issue since DKs practically destroy whatever they can reach. Their arena playstyle is to mostly grind down as many people, as fast as possible, not to chase after a specific somebody. And no, rogue and DH don't deal more dmg, not in the burst, nor in total. With a well executed setup I can do 70-100k bursts as a 460 frost DK w/o corruptions in 3s. And other classes are not more durable either, DKs don't have only Death Strike (which many people don't even know how to use properly). In fact I would personally place DKs among the tankiest classes in arena currently.
    Im being honest, I dont understand how is that dungeon logic. my main problem, like others in this topic is how slow and immobile DK is in PvP compared to most classes, have you tried to catch a monk or a rogue in arena? its impossible. you get to the monk, he rolls away, you grab him he rolls away again. you do the spirit walk they use the teleport. in a rogue monk combo scenario I can barely move. its not much different if one of them is a frost mage.

    yes you are right, DK is one of the tankiest between all classes but does it really matter if you cant even touch your enemy? being tanky like that means enemy needs to cast few more spells on you. the difference is like 5 to 10 seconds at most which again means nothing if you cant move or even control your character.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by ymn View Post
    DHs are a plague in WoW as they do everything other classes do, except they do it with ease.
    if the DH can have mobility, why the DK should not be able to fight on horse?, thus acquiring the mobility that they are missing so much...
    the same for protection warriors (knights), they should also be able to fight on horse. Blizzard does not make attractive classes ...

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Capultro View Post
    if the DH can have mobility, why the DK should not be able to fight on horse?, thus acquiring the mobility that they are missing so much...
    the same for protection warriors (knights), they should also be able to fight on horse. Blizzard does not make attractive classes ...
    That is way off the point.

    Warriors are not, by any margin, "knights" (unless you are referring to the War3 Knights, which is pretty much Warriors on horses, ala Cavalry Vanguard, but this is being too pedantic). Death Knights do belong on undead horses, but you cannot take a "this is what makes sense" trope and put it in a relatively competitive fantasy world.

    If you did that, Warlocks would be topping the charts on every single fight by such a huge margin as they are hands-down the most powerful class in the Warcraft universe (DHs are up there as well).

    DKs are fine being the slow heavy-hitting class that has above-average survivability (because of the fact that they are immobile as well). They just need to make that "hard hitting" apparent with some form of Obliterate specs (especially if done with 2h) that makes DK fantasy trope a force to be feared.

  17. #17
    Pandaren Monk Tyrannica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capultro View Post
    when they are going to remodel the DK? they can't go on like this, they are very bad and very slow .... they don't work. should allow them to use 2H weapons and should have a variety of auras, at the player's choice, they should finally have something interesting that makes them attractive, because right now I would never play it, is that for that the DH is better , in everything. and the 2 are hero classes !!! It is unforgivable how forgotten this class is ... and beware, an aura is not an icon is an AURA. YOU MUST SEE THAT YOU HAVE AN AURA ... be incredible, what happens here is that blizzard or has no imagination, or just take the money and spend everything ... I prefer DK to DH, but ... how things are ... I stay with DH.
    Blizz just pruned the DK class to bare bones.

    Here is my favorite lost talent: https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Shadow_of_Death

    Now, i would like to add whenever you suck enough blood or deal dmg you resurrect back to your original form with a weakness debuff with the whole talent having like a 5 min cd.

    This i would call creative dk design.

    Blizz almost had it!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ymn View Post

    DKs are fine being the slow heavy-hitting class that has above-average survivability (because of the fact that they are immobile as well). They just need to make that "hard hitting" apparent with some form of Obliterate specs (especially if done with 2h) that makes DK fantasy trope a force to be feared.
    They are neither slow nor heavy hitting - maybe that was a different expansion? certainly not the case in BfA.

    For example unholy, the most iconic of all the specs and unique gameplay wise, has many range abilities and pets, having much more reach than any other melee dd in the game is something to consider when talking about mobility - is mobility how fast you move from A to B or is mobility how fast you can dmg/cc your targets?

    2 days ago i played some skirmish arena and i was the DH(well bored of classes in bfa so why not play one) and a gladiator unholy dk joined me our opponents where a hunter and a rogue, when the door opponed both of them were dead so fast, i hardly could do any dmg. it was over in like 8 seconds or less, because the dmg reached their targets instantly, without enganging both of them in melee directly.

    Then of course there is always death's advance that gives you slow immunities passively and actively.

    Dks may be not the fastes of all melees when played as blood and frost spec, but this immobile fantasy isn't a thing for unholy dks.

    Furthermore, Dks in this expansion, hit like a wet noodle in each spec, its just that various small to medium passive dmg is dealing huge dmg. Gone are the days where you could just totally obliterate anyone with a huge crit done by a 2hand weapon as frost dk.

    Why taking away that freedom, how to play frost dw or 2hand, each style with different stat weights, is beyond me.

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