Was Thrall nerfed? Is he now an average hero?

[Zyky]

He sent them away because he knew something was coming. He didn't realize it was assassins from Sylvannas or just Saurfang seeking to bring him back into troubles.

Yes sure, he sent them away on a planet already devoid of food(the grain literally withers into dust upon being grazed by Saurfang's hand), knowing full well that any good Tracker/Assassin would go to kill his family first to put him off and have him make his own mistake and make it easier to kill him. They're likely long dead.

[Super Dickmann]

I'm still not convinced Thrall isn't projecting. Dude's always had a serious problem accepting responsibility for his fuck-ups, and using the elements to cheat in the mak'gora (with NPC chatter in 8.2.5 regarding Sylvanas's use of magic, we have at least some evidence to go on that it's apparently bad form to use magic in a mak'gora when the rules are unspoken) would be the sort of thing his subconscious would dwell on even as he consciously rejects responsibility for it. My take, entirely hypothesis right now, is that he cut himself off and just isn't in the headspace he needs to acknowledge that, instead blaming it on the elements.

Or Blizz's hack writers struck again and for some reason the elements in AU Draenor and the elements in MU Azeroth chat on Discord, and the AU elements considered using magic to kill Garrosh so superduper evil they just had to make sure the MU elements also withdrew support.

As much as I'd love for Blizzard to confirm the piss-take above, I figure it's a mix of the two. Unlike other powers, the elements don't work off of strength of will or faith or what have you, but a mixture of that and them lending their powers to a given cause when called upon. You can force them, like the taunka or dark shamans do, but Thrall generally doesn't, but this also means that they can withdraw their support if something is iffy. In this case, I chalk it up to a mixture of Thrall's self-doubt over his responsibility in the whole thing, hence also why he became a hermit, but also that in invoking the elements in a Mak'gora, which was between himself and Garrosh and referring to the elements as 'his power' after not being able to win as a warrior, he weakened his otherwise strong relationship with them.

[LuminaL]

Of course he was nerfed, along with all the Horde cast. Horde can't possibly have anyone at the same level of power of Malfurion, Jaina or Alleria, because Horde Bias™. And no, pre REEEEEEE Sylvie doesn't count, since her greatest display of power as Warchief was easily countered by Anduin Sue in BfA's intro. She had also failed badly against Genn already, so it really doesn't look like she became DBZ-tier powerful until she gtfo'd after kamehameha'ing Sadfang.

you had thrall for whole cata. yes malf is powerful on paper, but what exactly were shown of his powers in game? he got shot down by a warrior, lowest possible power level in classes. what did tyrande do? she became the avatar of vengeance, mouthful right? nop because she couldnt even defeat a normal, typical undead ranger.

velen? he did more for the horde than he did for the alliance. he cleansed sunwell for blood elves, he didnt join the siege of orgrimar, he didnt send help to night elves. and magni? avatar and speaker of azeroth ? again just mouthful titles, he just became natural and doesnt give a shit about alliance if horde burns every last one of them.

the only display of power we had so far who also isnt a natural character is Jaina, and then she "realized" the folly of her ways and forgiven the horde, but even she is not on the same level of power as sylvanas apparently.

[Ethas]

Yes. They had to do it because nobody would play Alliance otherwise.

[Dellis0991]

A number of indications about this, especially him being the hrode counterpart to horrific visions.. either that or Alleria is being raised up in profile.

Yeah he had ED since his fight with Garrosh, hopefully he get some kind of medication for that.

[ravenmoon]

Of course he was nerfed, along with all the Horde cast. Horde can't possibly have anyone at the same level of power of Malfurion, Jaina or Alleria, because Horde Bias™. And no, pre REEEEEEE Sylvie doesn't count, since her greatest display of power as Warchief was easily countered by Anduin Sue in BfA's intro. She had also failed badly against Genn already, so it really doesn't look like she became DBZ-tier powerful until she gtfo'd after kamehameha'ing Sadfang.

Power levesl are not considered any faction bias, because they don't really matter. No matter how powerful you may be, plot decides the victor, and legendary characters until Sylvanas in BFA never used their legendary Mary Sue powers for faction related purposes and mostly acted in neutral capacity. [in the WoT, Malfurion was pretty average coming up against Sylvanas, only slightly ahead of her, and Tyrande despite the suppoed powerful ritual, couldnt' defeat Nathanos and his team.. so.. pretty hollow.


The bias alliance players find blizzard has in the horde, is giving thema ll the activity, the interesting plot lines, the centre of the story (iyou see SoO and BFA iare hord ebiased not because a horde king got defeated, or a warchief went bad twice, but because the horde were the centre of the story and were ultiamtely the deciders of the fate of their faction, it isn't bias that the alliance dind't lose naything, cos that's not the point, tha'ts just plot.

The horde has been teh centre oft hes tory got hte cream off thea ction, the cream of the races... look at even the night elf buffed sub-race and their pre-sundering city were given tot he horde and void elves sent the alliance way as a token coming with no infrastructure or assets from the sin'dorei.

All the shinies are ont he horde, the horde got a far more majestic city in Zuldazar, now unlike Suramar, that is fully warranted, because it is troll lore and trolls are a horde race.. Suramar going horde is like taking Zuldazar and giving it to the alliance. BEcause it was so incredible, it also hosts the raid, so ti's not the fact that ahorde city was attacked, but once more is used and is the centre of attention.

ANd notice how Orgrimmar, Suramar, Zuldazar are raided and are just fine so horde players can bask in their glory, when ALliance cities get raided, they get destroyed. Stormwind WC1, Dalaran WC3, Theramore MoP, Darnassus BFA - massacred, destroyed, complete deoslation and power display, once again the horde centred, and who sovles the problem.. the horde.

Lookat how pathetic Tyrande's revenge is.. you basically kick out a token horde force in a zone that has nothing to save because they already wiped out your people, and their are now hardly any of them left.

[Zulkhan]

Thrall was never that massive of a powerhouse to begin with, but it's pretty obvious that the consequences of the Mak'gora with Garrosh fucked his connection with the elements up, big time. Now he's probably little more than a warrior with fairly average shamanic powers.

[shadowmatrix]

I'm still not convinced Thrall isn't projecting. Dude's always had a serious problem accepting responsibility for his fuck-ups, and using the elements to cheat in the mak'gora (with NPC chatter in 8.2.5 regarding Sylvanas's use of magic, we have at least some evidence to go on that it's apparently bad form to use magic in a mak'gora when the rules are unspoken) would be the sort of thing his subconscious would dwell on even as he consciously rejects responsibility for it. My take, entirely hypothesis right now, is that he cut himself off and just isn't in the headspace he needs to acknowledge that, instead blaming it on the elements.

Or Blizz's hack writers struck again and for some reason the elements in AU Draenor and the elements in MU Azeroth chat on Discord, and the AU elements considered using magic to kill Garrosh so superduper evil they just had to make sure the MU elements also withdrew support.

I thought everyone realized that it was all a mental issue with Thrall, If the elements gave a damn about murder then Magatha Grimtotem wouldn't be a shaman, not to mention all the other evil shaman we fight.

As for why it is Alleria instead of Anduin, she is the one with the constant voices in her head. Both of main bosses are ones that have some sort of emotional instability that N'zoth could take advantage of.

[Aucald]

I thought everyone realized that it was all a mental issue with Thrall, If the elements gave a damn about murder then Magatha Grimtotem wouldn't be a shaman, not to mention all the other evil shaman we fight.

As for why it is Alleria instead of Anduin, she is the one with the constant voices in her head. Both of main bosses are ones that have some sort of emotional instability that N'zoth could take advantage of.

Magatha may be a Dark Shaman herself, given her interest in the Doomstone, a relic secured from and used by the Twilight's Hammer. Most of the other evil-aligned Shaman are probably of a similar stripe.

[formerShandalay]

I thought everyone realized that it was all a mental issue with Thrall, If the elements gave a damn about murder then Magatha Grimtotem wouldn't be a shaman, not to mention all the other evil shaman we fight.

As for why it is Alleria instead of Anduin, she is the one with the constant voices in her head. Both of main bosses are ones that have some sort of emotional instability that N'zoth could take advantage of.

I don't think the elements care about murder per se, but the elements do care what you use your power for. And if it's world domination, mass murder or outright genocide, destroying the world or parts of the world, petty revenge or your own ego they turn away from you. We've seen this happen and read about it (particularly with the orcs in Draenor and the elements rebelling against the Goblins in Felwood). The dark shaman enslave the elements and actually using those in large numbers is very much considered dangerous, as it may cause another cataclysmic event. At least that's what was said in Tides of War and Before the Storm.

A thing that also happens, however, is if you simply blame yourself for things and have a guilty conscience, even though there's nothing to actually feel guilty about, you also cannot access the elements as well as you may if you were not preoccupied. 'Unbroken' is a very nice story about that.

I also think N'zoth chose Thrall and Alleria for a reason. My guess is, the reason is sowing more mistrust. If Thrall can be led astray like that, how can the shaman ever trust the elements again? Zekhan even talks about this in the vision.
Alleria is trusted by lots of people, but sure not everyone and this may drive a wedge between her and her most trusted allies.

Both things would drive those two further towards N'zoth's influence and I do think that N'zoth is really, really pissed about Thrall and his role in Cataclysm and about Alleria for defying him until now, when he was already sure she'd be his in no time.

[Adoxe]

It happened in WoD, it's why he retired in Legion and let you have Doomhammer.

[Powerogue]

Yes. He lost the Doomhammer when it decided it liked us better and then we zapped it at a giant sword so he ain't getting that back. Anything he had in Cataclysm was lost when the aspects depowered. He probably still has shaman powers but has been leaning on his fancy new axe as of late.

It's not clear whether the Doomhammer is sentient or just Thrall feeling bad about himself that severed his connection with the Doomhammer but either way it's a moot point at this point as that thing is sitting inactive in my bank.

[Nathreim]

Thrall and Malfurion got the nerf bat this expansion which honestly is a good thing. Its too hard to relate to demigods who never use their powers to protect their faction from the other faction.

[Varodoc]

I thought everyone realized that it was all a mental issue with Thrall, If the elements gave a damn about murder then Magatha Grimtotem wouldn't be a shaman, not to mention all the other evil shaman we fight.

As for why it is Alleria instead of Anduin, she is the one with the constant voices in her head. Both of main bosses are ones that have some sort of emotional instability that N'zoth could take advantage of.

Anduin also succumbed to the whispers, Wrathion just stops you from seeing him, saying that "there's one vision he doesn't want to see" when you approach Stormwind Keep. Alleria pretty much had the power to either kill or turn everyone in Stormwind to N'Zoth.

[Aucald]

Anduin also succumbed to the whispers, Wrathion just stops you from seeing him, saying that "there's one vision he doesn't want to see" when you approach Stormwind Keep. Alleria pretty much had the power to either kill or turn everyone in Stormwind to N'Zoth.

I was more of a mind that Anduin's void-tainted corpse was likely to be found in Stormwind Keep, and Wrathion had no wish to see his friend dead in such a manner. Given that Alleria is lording over a twisted Stormwind in the Vision it makes sense that she probably killed Anduin right off to consolidate her power there.

[Varodoc]

I was more of a mind that Anduin's void-tainted corpse was likely to be found in Stormwind Keep, and Wrathion had no wish to see his friend dead in such a manner. Given that Alleria is lording over a twisted Stormwind in the Vision it makes sense that she probably killed Anduin right off to consolidate her power there.

That's possible, then that would mean Velen is dead too, right? Since he is always at Anduin's side. So if this Void-corrupted Alleria can kill both Anduin and Velen, then she must be very strong.

[Mirishka]

Alleria consumed the heart of a dark naaru and became the first mortal to successfully defy the shadows' whispers. We don't know how strong she is. For all we know she could be as powerful as Jailer-empowered Sylvanas (though we don't know that for sure because their fight was interrupted before it started). It's not unreasonable to believe she is around the level of power of Cataclysm Thrall (strongest version of Thrall).

To everyone in this topic: find someone that loves you, as much as Tenebra loves Alleria.

Or maybe just a bit less.

[Varodoc]

To everyone in this topic: find someone that loves you, as much as Tenebra loves Alleria.

Or maybe just a bit less.

You can imagine the sadness of having to kill Alleria, thankfully it is merely an alternate reality.

Let's make sure it stays an alternate reality.

[Monster Hunter]

A number of indications about this, especially him being the hrode counterpart to horrific visions.. either that or Alleria is being raised up in profile.

He was nurfed between legion and wod when the elements stopped speaking to him and he lost the doom Hammer.

He's now not much more than an OK warrior.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes. He lost the Doomhammer when it decided it liked us better and then we zapped it at a giant sword so he ain't getting that back. Anything he had in Cataclysm was lost when the aspects depowered. He probably still has shaman powers but has been leaning on his fancy new axe as of late.

It's not clear whether the Doomhammer is sentient or just Thrall feeling bad about himself that severed his connection with the Doomhammer but either way it's a moot point at this point as that thing is sitting inactive in my bank.

The doom Hammer was dead in his hands anyway, after he killed garrosh the elements stopped speaking to him so he wasn't a shamman anymore, shammans don't have power individually they loan there power from the elements, without that there little more than mediocre warriors.

Shamman, paladins and priests are like clerics in dnd, there powers are granted to them by higher beings, but those higher beings can also take that power away.

[Maljinwo]

Thrall was heavily nerfed. His shamanic powers took a heavy hit after he lost trust in himself for allowing all the shit that Garrosh did