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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Lol, actually comparing Method and Limit to a classic raider DDD

    New levels, everyday.
    WOW yeah Method and Limit are in an entire other universe compared to this easy content, that's almost insulting lol. That's why Method pretty much immediately quit playing after launch b/c it's basically a meme game.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by d00mh4cker View Post
    Things nostalgic vanilla players say:

    "Classic is so hardcore even dungeons and leveling is hard"
    -Players roflstomps all dungeons without tank or healer. Mages pull like 30-40 mobs and blizzard them down.

    "Molten Core is so much harder then retail wow"
    - MC was cleared in minutes without even having all at max level. No gear at all. No prep what so ever.

    "Ofcourse, they have been practicing for 15 YEARS!!!!!!!11111"
    - Casual guilds clears it in hours.

    "Yes, its 1.12, you stupid, wait for BWL idiot!!!!"
    - BWL cleared in minutes

    "Ofcourse, they have been practicing for 15 YEARS!!!!!!!11111"
    - Thousands of more or less casual guilds clears it within hours or first day. All guilds who give it a try clears it first reset.

    "Yes, its 1.12, you stupid, wait for AQ40 you idiot!!!!"


    Yes, we will see
    But that it was on 1.12.1 with no other changes is exactly why Classic is easy. I say this as someone who avoided Classic because of this nonsense.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by hlud View Post
    But that it was on 1.12.1 with no other changes is exactly why Classic is easy. I say this as someone who avoided Classic because of this nonsense.
    Wrong - Vanilla was easy too.

  4. #304
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Wrong - Vanilla was easy too.
    So? Why is difficulty held up as a good thing?

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    1) a long and reasonably varied leveling process that introduced you to a big world. That leveling process also had some challenges and people tended to group up for some of the elite quests, leading to some socializing.

    2) A pretty wide variety of 5 mans at and near 60 that tended to feel like real places. BRD for example, feels like a real fortress in the heart of the mountain.

    3) A talent system and in general a class system that had real tradeoffs and where everyone wasn't the same.

    4) A gearing system where you could target upgrades, get them and be done either forever or until the next raid, if you raided.
    I have yet to see a reason why these should only exist as they once were in vanilla WoW. When i first entered Blackrock Depths on a private server, even after completing it on retail back in BC, when i first started, that experience stood out. But the #nochanges community creates a false dichotomy in that if you want massive dungeons with different paths, you can only get the ones that were already made in vanilla WoW. And if you want new dungeons you can only get the linear ones in retail. But, if you want new, massive dungeons? Sorry, that option is impossible!

    Admittedly, Blizzard is just using the #nochanges community as an excuse for this laziness, but the #nochanges philosophy needs to be extinguished.

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by avx81 View Post
    LOL.. Heroic is most likely more difficult? No. Heroic IS more difficult. I would argue NORMAL is more difficult. BWL is about as difficult as LFR. Even LFR has more mechanics. I called it months ago. Most of the people on my friends list who talked about classic being the best thing since sliced bread migrated back to retail within about 2 months. Nobody cares about classic or the "world first bwl" that took 40 minutes. In another week after the BWL nostalgia has worn off nobody is going to care about watching classic on twitch again either.
    Normal may be more difficult, but LFR is designed so that you can log in, spend maybe a day getting max level gear, and clear it the first time you walk in.

    BWL requires some gear, and some understanding of the mechanics.

    If you have the gear and understand the mechanics, then sure it’s really easy, but gear acquisition was the source of difficulty in classic. LFR has nothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    I don't really hate bfa, outside of the extreme rng and crap systems and garbage gameplay

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    So? Why is difficulty held up as a good thing?
    A game is generally enjoyable because of the thoughtful decision making involved. When you take that out, you take out the enjoyment. Now, a good story needs not thoughtful decision making, but, alas, i do not play a story.

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    So? Why is difficulty held up as a good thing?
    A game is generally enjoyable because of the thoughtful decision making involved. When you take that out, you take out the enjoyment. Now, a good story needs not thoughtful decision making, but, alas, i do not play a story.

  9. #309
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hlud View Post
    I have yet to see a reason why these should only exist as they once were in vanilla WoW. When i first entered Blackrock Depths on a private server, even after completing it on retail back in BC, when i first started, that experience stood out. But the #nochanges community creates a false dichotomy in that if you want massive dungeons with different paths, you can only get the ones that were already made in vanilla WoW. And if you want new dungeons you can only get the linear ones in retail. But, if you want new, massive dungeons? Sorry, that option is impossible!

    Admittedly, Blizzard is just using the #nochanges community as an excuse for this laziness, but the #nochanges philosophy needs to be extinguished.
    No, it doesn't. Classic is intended as a reasonably close recreation of vanilla. Not something more. If you don't like it, go to a pserver.

    Now... if it was a year after Naxx? I might agree. But expecting Classic to be anything other than a close Vanilla clone at this point is just delusional.

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    So? Why is difficulty held up as a good thing?
    Generally, a game's enjoyment derives from thoughtful decision making. A good story needs not thoughtful decision making, but, alas, i do not 'play' a story.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    No, it doesn't. Classic is intended as a reasonably close recreation of vanilla. Not something more. If you don't like it, go to a pserver.

    Now... if it was a year after Naxx? I might agree. But expecting Classic to be anything other than a close Vanilla clone at this point is just delusional.
    But, it is a false dichotomy. Unless you prove the ability of Blizzard to create a massive, but new, dungeon as an impossibility, then you shouldn't claim so.

  12. #312
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hlud View Post
    But, it is a false dichotomy. Unless you prove the ability of Blizzard to create a massive, but new, dungeon as an impossibility, then you shouldn't claim so.
    I didnt say gather COULDNT. I said that it's not their intention for Classic. Also, negatives can't be proven.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    Not only that, to me it seems that big parts of the community tried to mislead the uninformed such as myself to believe that it was indeed harder than anything that came after.

    On some bosses I never even move. I stand in the same spot spamming a single button. If that's not the definition of trivial I don't know what is.
    Speaking for myself I was aware that it was quite easy and I was ok with that. Leveling and dungeons were fun. There are so many things to do!

    At max level I got pretty well geared in dungeons and went into raids, but that’s where I hit a roadblock.

    I can’t raid on a schedule so I was hoping that easy classic raids + priest means I can get in there and play.

    I discovered that I could, but:

    -Raid leader takes every single material for guild

    -Very limited loot and every raid has like 6 priests

    -Many items on reserve

    I decided to try to join a casual once per week group in a big guild on server, and before we had even pulled first trash pack there was an argument about dkp and raiders from the “core” team were saying that they should be allowed to use dkp here. I quit.

    In retrospect I was worried about gear scarcity all along but I just kinda hoped that it wouldn’t be too big an issue. So I mean, I wasn’t uniformed, I just chose to be optimistic and ignore the obvious flaws in the game. Ah well.
    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    I don't really hate bfa, outside of the extreme rng and crap systems and garbage gameplay

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    No, it doesn't. Classic is intended as a reasonably close recreation of vanilla. Not something more. If you don't like it, go to a pserver.

    Now... if it was a year after Naxx? I might agree. But expecting Classic to be anything other than a close Vanilla clone at this point is just delusional.
    And, i should respond to the oft-used 'leave Classic' remarks. While i personally have decided to just not play it, people are leaving Classic left and right. If you want massive, new dungeons, then don't play Classic. If you want vanilla WoW, then don't play Classic. If you want challenges, don't play Classic. People are agreeing with you, and it has now, what, 10% of it's population in September?

  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    So? Why is difficulty held up as a good thing?
    I didn't say it was. You need to read some of my other posts in this thread. I think it's great that there is an easier alternative for those who find retails raiding too demanding or just too hard.

    The question is, why is there a small section of the famous "classic community" that lie and bullshit constantly, doing amazing mental gymnastics trying to "prove" that classic / vanilla was / is hard. That's kinda the theme of this thread.

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post

    In retrospect I was worried about gear scarcity all along but I just kinda hoped that it wouldn’t be too big an issue. So I mean, I wasn’t uniformed, I just chose to be optimistic and ignore the obvious flaws in the game. Ah well.
    thats just the way that it is with gear, it comes over time, because you end up running t1 until the end, so you end up farming content wayyyyyyyyyyyyy past the point that ppl need stuff, you'll always run molten core because of the bindings. they make it so that you never leave t1 it never becomes not worth running.

    I won't be getting TF first in my guild, second, if the other drops, I've already opted to funnel all the t2 to the other MT, the warrior CL in our guild has both bindings, he will get most of t2 funneled to him, because, its just better that way, then ill gear up second.

    everyone is free to play the game the way they want but, sometimes you have to compromise for the whole.

    you can't control what drops, some items will drop often, others won't, for us we had maybe 4-5 brutality blades in a row, another guild might have had shields, some items are more sought after than others. dkp just allows you to get items sooner, if you can't attend raids to save dkp to win loot then you won't get far. most guilds i'd imagine do dkp as is customary for the time. there are players who save dkp and bid all of it on key BiS items, other ppl like me who don't really give a fuck about loot and just get it when I get it, if i have too much dkp, or i feel like I do, ill bid on something useful. and ill pass if i've already had loot that raid. its pretty simple really, you don't always get gear, some of the mages in my guild didn't get a single epic item for maybe 10 or more raids. either they didn't want any t1, the items they did want didn't drop, or the dungeon bis blue gear was better than the epic gear.

    classic was the worst point for gearing up at any significant pace, tbc was better at getting ppl into a raid ready gear level with heroics and karazhan being a 10 man entry raid. the only way you're going to gear up fast in classic is by waiting for ZG and AQ20. you're still gunna have to show up and clear the raid to actually get the loot, not just go on follow and expect to get loot just because you showed up that day. its going to be a long while until phase 6 and it hasn't even been said yet if this is going to progress to tbc or not, if it does, ok, but if it doesn't, then you have forever to get loot. for, ever, at least until the server gets shut off anyway. or until you guild burns out and stops raiding.

    if you plan on seeing the game through till the end, it doesn't really matter how fast you get gear. because ultimately you won't finish it until the end. if you don't plan on playing till the end, why does it matter how fast you gear up, so long as the raid as a whole is absorbing new loot each week, the raid, as a whole is getting stronger, it really is just a matter of time before everyone gets the items they want or something better. eventually you'll have it all on farm an it really is a matter of counting the lockouts until its your turn.
    Last edited by Heathy; 2020-02-16 at 01:08 AM.

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    So? Why is difficulty held up as a good thing?
    Generally, games are enjoyed for their thoughtful decision making. A good story needs not thoughtful decision making, but, alas, i do not 'play' a story.

  18. #318
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hlud View Post
    Generally, games are enjoyed for their thoughtful decision making. A good story needs not thoughtful decision making, but, alas, i do not 'play' a story.
    Well... an RPG probably isn't a good match for someone who doesn't play the story.

    And, Classic is what it is. Not what you or I wish it might be, but what Blizzard intends it to be.

  19. #319
    Has wow ever been hard though? I mean the hardest raid they can come up with still only lasts a week.

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by barackohmama View Post
    Has wow ever been hard though? I mean the hardest raid they can come up with still only lasts a week.
    It only lasts a week because Limit/Method have the best raiders in the world, dedicate an insane amount of time preparing (PTR testing, playing 12 hours a day the two weeks before the mythic opening), insane amount of time raiding (14-16 hours a day during the race, it's around 120 hours of raiding in eight days), and spend an insane amount of gold to min/max their character (Limit is 250 million gold in debt, that's 40 thousand dollars in wow tokens). Limit had their RL coaching and managing the raid from the outside, they had someone dedicated to the addons/weakauras. And even with all that preparation, it takes more than 100 hours of progress to the cream of the crop to clear the raid.

    And if you look at some recent mythic bosses (KJ, Uunat), yes, it's really hard. Not necessarily incredibly hard mechanically, but in terms of coordination/preparation/strategy/focus during long fights/dps and hps checks.
    Last edited by Barzotti; 2020-02-16 at 01:54 AM.

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