Is Classic too easy?

[dzd]

I'd love to but Classic was sold to me as this hardcore really difficult experience, I've invested a lot of time into the game and I'm not about to throw all that away regardless of the lies about its difficulty.

Anyone who actually played private servers would have told you that raiding is easy in classic. Maybe you got confused when some people were talking about how most private servers heavily buffed the raid bosses?

If you only care about raiding you kinda have only 2 options with classic. Either you are minmaxer playing in hardcore guild and it's all about speedrunning the content with world buffs or you join a more casual guild and wait for naxxramas. Guilds like apes will still fly through naxxramas in under 2 hours, but for average joe naxxramas tends to be quite hard to clear.

Spending time does not equal skill. Walking to the store takes more time than driving there, I wouldn't say that it's harder just because of it, you don't even need a license to walk.

Yes and the classic hardcore player would get driving license and drive since it's faster.

Until those guilds prove that they can clear mythic raids while they're current content I'll assume that they can't.

I don't understand why you want people to grind games they don't like. I think it's time for you to take break from video games and come back when you realize that you are supposed to have fun while playing.

[Dalinos]

Yes, yes and no (we don't use loot council).
I wouldn't call any of that work especially difficult but it requires that you put in a lot of time. It doesn't make the game hard.

Working at McDonalds is easy. If I'm the manager of a McDonalds I probably have to do a lot of shit that the workers won't have to, it still doesn't make working at McDonalds difficult.

I'll put it for you this way, maybe you understand my point better. I have a Master of Science in Economics. My Master's Thesis was very difficult, TECHNICALLY. What do I mean by that? My Econometric model was complicated, the Statistics and Maths I had to implement were high-level, the assumptions I had to make for the Statistics & Math to be valid were very advanced. I even had to use a paper of an economist from Pakistan, written in Urdu (got it translated with the help of Google Translate and a Pakistani class-mate) because he had worked on exactly the same topic as I was working, so it made for an extremely good source. It took me 2 weeks to put the whole thing into writing. THIS, is the raiding part.

To get to the point where I could actually begin writing, I spent 3 months working my data set of 3,000,000 observations. No heavy math involved, no advanced statistics, no high-level assumptions, nothing. Just gruelling Data management in order to turn 3,000,000 observations into 1 working index. THIS, is the management part.

Which was harder? For me, since I adore my science, the writing of the Thesis was a breeze. I was working 12h/day on it and was pumping 2,000-2,500 words per day, and it was fun as hell. My roommate couldn't believe his eyes when I had written 10k words by the end of the 1st week. The management of my data set? Excruciatingly difficult, because it took me 3 months to work through the whole thing. It was difficult not in terms of complexity, but because of the sheer amount of work that needed to be done.

Do you get me now mate? Sure, the raids aren't hard, because people actually ENJOY raiding. The management part is way tougher, in my eyes. I hope my example helped you understand my way of thinking.

[Echocho]

I'll put it for you this way, maybe you understand my point better. I have a Master of Science in Economics. My Master's Thesis was very difficult, TECHNICALLY. What do I mean by that? My Econometric model was complicated, the Statistics and Maths I had to implement were high-level, the assumptions I had to make for the Statistics & Math to be valid were very advanced. It took me 2 weeks to put the whole thing into writing. THIS, is the raiding part.

To get to the point where I could actually begin writing, I spent 3 months working my data set of 3,000,000 observations. No heavy math involved, no advanced statistics, no high-level assumptions, nothing. Just gruelling Data management in order to turn 3,000,000 observations into 1 working index. THIS, is the management part.

Which was harder? For me, since I adore my science, the writing of the Thesis was a breeze. I was working 12h/day on it and was pumping 2,000-2,500 words per day. The management of my data set? Excruciatingly difficult, because it took me 3 months to work through the whole thing. It was difficult not in terms of complexity, but because of the sheer amount of work that needed to be done.

Do you get me now mate? Sure, the raids aren't hard, because people actually ENJOY raiding. The management part is way tougher, in my eyes. I hope my example helped you understand my way of thinking.

I think you're confusing hard with tedious. My time at university was similar except that it was computer science. I wouldn't call any of it hard but quite tedious because of all the work.

Once you get out in the real world you'll start to experience things that are both hard and time consuming. No part of Classic however is hard, it just eats time.

[Dalinos]

I think you're confusing hard with tedious. My time at university was similar except that it was computer science. I wouldn't call any of it hard but quite tedious because of all the work.

Once you get out in the real world you'll start to experience things that are both hard and time consuming. No part of Classic however is hard, it just eats time.

1stly, I already am in the real world, I work as an Economic analyst. 2ndly, the definition of "Hard" changes from person to person. When something isn't fun or challenging, I lose focus. Keeping my focus so I can work through my data set was a monumental task for me, because as you said, it was tedious as fuck, even though in terms of complexity it was easymode.

[Kolvarg]

But here's the thing: if you want to compare "which one is the hardest", you need to compare both entities at their hardest, because, otherwise, it's the same thing as saying a 12-year-old is faster than Usain Bolt because he can outrun a walking Usain Bolt. Or say that feathers are heavier than lead because 10 pounds of feathers are heavier than one pound of lead.

Not at all. First because one can just as easily ask "which one is the easiest", instead. But also because even when considering which one is the hardest, you can definitely look into it from a perspective of "which one is the hardest to complete (or in other words "see" all/most of the content) at a base setting", meaning without optional increased difficulties. The only exception is the very ocasional Mythic-only fight phases but frankly those are rare and don't amount to that much "content".

If you want to make an analogy to racing honestly I don't think that's a good one. We're not comparing the peak performance of 2 humans, we're comparing how hard 2 games are. So if anything it would be like comparing 2 different racing tracks: One is old and rough and you've got to pay attention not to trip in rocks, fall into holes or mistakenly take the wrong path if you're not paying attention. The other one is freshly paved and a breeze to run through, without any holes or rocks, with the main course very clearly marked with glowing neon arrows so that there's nearly no way to get lost, but with some really hard and technical optional detours on the side that you can choose to incorporate into your run.

But there is no challenge. Spending more time to reach max level than you do on modern WoW is not a measurement of difficulty when you don't have a time limit to reach your goal. Overpulling and aggro'ing extra mobs? That will also happen in modern WoW if you just go around attacking everything in sight without keeping your surroundings in mind, and yes, you will die, in both games. If the mobs are higher level than you? Go to a different area with mobs more at your level, or below it. Elite/group quests? Find a group, or skip those quests. To this day I skip the group quests in Icecrown when I level my character through Northrend.

Classic is simply not this "hardcore" game people claim it to be, even when compared to modern WoW.

That is your perspective, which is completely subjective and dependant on your interpretation of what "hard" means.

There's a big difference between "you'll probably die if you pull everything in sight" and "you'll probably die if you pull more than 2 mobs". Again, the fact that there is a solution to that problem does not invalidate that there is a problem to solve. It would be like saying carrying a 40kg object is not harder than carrying a 20kg object because you can just ask someone else to carry it with you. Or that Mythic raiding is easy because you just have to pay a Mythic guild to carry you through it. The game is harder because you need to group to take those harder challenges, or skip some quests until you are more powerful. That doesn't happen in modern WoW because the base game is easier.

You might not want to call it hardcore, you can call it whatever you want. But there is an objective mathematical difference in difficulty between modern WoW and Classic on leveling content. Despite still being a very approachable game, especially compared to other MMORPGS of its time, it simply has a harsher tuning than modern WoW.

[Monster Hunter]

No. Classic is what you make of it. There's plenty of content to do, you just have to decide to do it or not.

Not really plenty of content at end game. There's BG's, raids or RP (which is really just making your own fun not a supported end game activity)

[dzd]

Not really plenty of content at end game. There's BG's, raids or RP (which is really just making your own fun not a supported end game activity)

I guess then it's time to start new character if you have completed the game.

[Monster Hunter]

I guess then it's time to start new character if you have completed the game.

Why the hell would I inflict that on my self. I have at least some small amount of self respect so as not to waste that time again.

The classic leveling "experience" or as every one else calls it, "mindlessly grinding mobs for a week"

[dzd]

Why the hell would I inflict that on my self. I have at least some small amount of self respect so as not to waste that time again.

The classic leveling "experience" or as every one else calls it, "mindlessly grinding mobs for a week"

Why are you playing genre you don't enjoy? In the end MMORPGs boil down to mindless grinding if you look it from that perspective.

edit: kinda made me laugh that you forced you to use insane amount of time in a game that obviously isn't for you

[Darklurker]

One of the reasons I love Classic is because after the initial rush to level and grind dungeons, I can now play casually and raid stress-free.

[Monster Hunter]

Why are you playing genre you don't enjoy? In the end MMORPGs boil down to mindless grinding if you look it from that perspective.

edit: kinda made me laugh that you forced you to use insane amount of time in a game that obviously isn't for you

Griding mobs to level isn't normal for a mmo in 2020.

Mmos are just muli player rpgs. Rpgas are all about story driven char development, nothing in the definition states grind 500 boars for 6 livers, that's just terrible antiquated game design.

The genera is perfectly fine and retail wow and many other Mmos are far better examples of story driven leveling. Swtor, eso, ffxiv all manage much better to create fun an engaging leveling experiences. But leveling isn't really why most people play an mmo. It's the end game, the community, the shared pve and pvp environment of raiding and such.

Wow always had a reputation as a shit leveling experience even back in the day, the saying "the game starts at level 60" didn't come about for no reason.

[Tekkommo]

SWTOR did have a fun levelling experience, solely down to the voice acting and dialogue options. Nothing else was different.

ESO has pretty good levelling, that's the entire game pretty much.

FF14 has awful levelling. So much boring, dull content to get through.

WoW has the best world to level in compared to the 3 others above (imo ofc), this makes a big difference when levelling for many.

[Ielenia]

Not at all. First because one can just as easily ask "which one is the easiest", instead. But also because even when considering which one is the hardest, you can definitely look into it from a perspective of "which one is the hardest to complete (or in other words "see" all/most of the content) at a base setting", meaning without optional increased difficulties. The only exception is the very ocasional Mythic-only fight phases but frankly those are rare and don't amount to that much "content".

Then that adds a whole bunch of caveats that change the definition that were not made clear before.

If you want to make an analogy to racing honestly I don't think that's a good one. We're not comparing the peak performance of 2 humans, we're comparing how hard 2 games are. So if anything it would be like comparing 2 different racing tracks: One is old and rough and you've got to pay attention not to trip in rocks, fall into holes or mistakenly take the wrong path if you're not paying attention. The other one is freshly paved and a breeze to run through, without any holes or rocks, with the main course very clearly marked with glowing neon arrows so that there's nearly no way to get lost, but with some really hard and technical optional detours on the side that you can choose to incorporate into your run.

Except that the "freshly paved racing track" is actually an obstacle field.

There's a big difference between "you'll probably die if you pull everything in sight" and "you'll probably die if you pull more than 2 mobs".

Except you're pulling things to an extreme, here. Heading into Nazjatar as a "freshly dinged 120" was hard as even pulling two mobs could kill you if you didn't pay attention. And the Uldum/Vale invasion mobs? As a fresh 120, those bitches are tough.

Again, the fact that there is a solution to that problem does not invalidate that there is a problem to solve. It would be like saying carrying a 40kg object is not harder than carrying a 20kg object because you can just ask someone else to carry it with you. Or that Mythic raiding is easy because you just have to pay a Mythic guild to carry you through it. The game is harder because you need to group to take those harder challenges, or skip some quests until you are more powerful. That doesn't happen in modern WoW because the base game is easier.

Then go solo the group quests in Icecrown as a non-twink level 60-80 character.

[StayTuned]

Eh, so on our 3 hours time that we had on Sunday, we managed to beat Vael with 33 man, that was it. That's how many people we had online at that time, and half of them never played WoW seriously.

Classic is a challenge unless you really have enough time to invest into the game and/or you have a lot of experience.

[vindicatorx]

It's starting to feel like, what's the point if there's no challenge?

You are asking if 15 year old content is too easy? I mean we know every minute detail of everything the entire game has to offer. What made it challenging 15 years ago is that we were in new territory with no addons like the ones we use today. I mean if you didn't plan on raiding or PVPing why would you play? I mean I am playing because I wanted to experience the content I missed out on the first time. I have already gotten farther now, than I did when it was current content. My guild never downed chromag and we down NEf week1. People now are more prepared in general.

[Heathy]

I don't think its easy the first time you do content with that group of players, it gets easier when you learn and can anticipate your other guild members but the first time you do a boss encounter is always the most uncertain time. all other times are just perfecting. I'm happy I got further than I did the first time, I think we only wiped once on broodlord and ass pull firemaw and wiped, and ass pull ebonroc and wiped but we did not have enough tranq shots to do flamegor on sunday so we stopped there. we had 35 ppl. it was more challenging than it probably will be with more gear and a full raid.

we actually fucked up on ebonroc taunt rotation and managed to do him from 75% with 28 ppl alive. as a tank I feel like a lot of the difficulty is just RNG, being screwed by it, having tanks die in single GCD's or some other overlap of mechanics that causes a few deaths. in classic it was mostly about aggro management and these days you can see that ppl really skirt the line on pulling aggro any many ppl do just pull aggro. most wipes are usually caused by someone pulling aggro but this was the same back in the old days which is why you always waited for 3 sunders.

I think bwl is noticeably harder than molten core and requires a certain level of co-ordination that makes it so that you likely couldn't do the place without voice comms and communication, you just can't really face roll it. while compared to the LFR, its designed to be doable without voice comms. bwl is tuned for a raid that has farmed t1, you can see the damage that is dealt to the raid and the tanks, and it is close a lot of the time. some combinations of abilities can easily one shot a tank. or you can easily take over 9k damage in 1 or 2 globals.

I think classic is hard in the sense that not everyone has nearly as much versatility as they do today, you're much more reliant on the raid working as a whole instead of everyone being an individual power house that can do nearly anything. the difficulty is in the significantly scaled back classes and their overall limitations. you're really limited in what you can do and how often you can do it.

[tmamass]

I feel that the community kinda lied to the players that came in fresh. Classic was painted as this hardcore super difficult game compared to a dumbed down super easy retail when in reality it's the complete opposite. Classes have like two buttons to press if they're lucky and bosses have almost no mechanics.

NO, the community has told you from start how EASY classic is gonna be. The real problem is that you didnt wanted to listen and belive in the mythical hc game that wow vanilla just never was!

[Kolvarg]

Then that adds a whole bunch of caveats that change the definition that were not made clear before.

Not caveats at all, just perspective. When someone asks how hard a game is, it's generally asking for the general/average experience, not how hard a game can be with optional difficulty settings. Comparing at the hardest difficulty only is also not what most people expect, since the majority of people do not voluntarily choose to play games in optional harder modes. The most recent statistics I remember are outdated, and they're only statistic, but they're illustrative: Back in SoO only ~40% of at-the-time active players killed the first boss of Siege of Orgrimmar at Flex difficulty, while ~70% did it in LFR. And iirc those statistics were biased towards players in guilds, so the numbers were inflated towards higher difficulties.

Dark Souls wouldn't be the iconic "modern hard game" it is if its current difficulty was an optional "hard mode" and the default was a "story mode" that players can breeze through.

Except that the "freshly paved racing track" is actually an obstacle field.

Except the obstacles don't exist unless you willingly place them there.

Except you're pulling things to an extreme, here. Heading into Nazjatar as a "freshly dinged 120" was hard as even pulling two mobs could kill you if you didn't pay attention. And the Uldum/Vale invasion mobs? As a fresh 120, those bitches are tough.

It's not extreme, the difference is evident to anyone who is willing to look at it objectively. I won't get into details because I haven't played in a while so I can't comment too much on Nazjatar and Uldum/Vale - so I could be wrong, but I highly doubt that, and if I am that would be a very recent and sudden design direction change from Blizzard that certainly doesn't reflect the world difficulty design that WoW has had for the last nearly 10 years. But those are zones not intended for fresh 120s are they? They are patch zones that were designed specifically with players who have been playing BfA endgame content and acquiring much better gear than a fresh 120 for more than a year now. It's as worthwile as saying "it's pretty hard to survive in Classic Winterspirng with a level 30 character". Especially since these are very specific examples that correspond to a very small percentage of the whole game.

Then go solo the group quests in Icecrown as a non-twink level 60-80 character.

I'm not willing to give Blizzard 13€, as well as my time, to prove a point. If you are, please feel free to record yourself on an appropriate level and gear character to illustrate how hard group quests are in modern WoW. But considering there are wowhead comments and youtube videos of people soloing Icecrown group quests even while they were current content, and considering the other 99% of group quests, I would say if you are not able to solo a leveling group quest in modern WoW then it's probably an unintended bug / side-effect of the level scaling technology, as it certainly doesn't subscribe to the design philosophy of nearly every other quest in the game

Even if you could prove that a significant percentage of group quests in modern WoW are not soloable by the average gamer, they're still mathematically easier as mobs just take longer to kill and are faster to kill you in Classic.

Agree to disagree, I guess

[tmamass]

Classic isn't very complex and it have never really been, but don't say it's easier than LFR.

you can lie to yourself as much as you want but facts stay facts.

Even so, LFR is put together so that anyone who have no clue what the hell they're doing, what the tactics are etc. can complete it, it's made so that you can get to see the raid without effort.

you clearly never done any lfr otherwise you wouldnt say stuff like that. wow classic was made by casuals for casuals. when blizzard tried to make wow harder in cata there was an uproar of protest. so yeah everything is classic is defacto simpler AND easier then lfr these days.

[Hilaw]

Let people who enjoy casual mmo enjoy it. It's easy and doesn't require any skill, but that's why anyone can play it and take part of every part of content it has to offer.