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  1. #801
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    Classic has extremely little content if you're not a raider or a serious PvP:er, however I'm beginning to feel that the content it does have is way too easy. Raids are cleared the first reset by most guilds and then you're back to raid logging for farm raids that are almost as easy as LFR is in retail.
    It doesn't give you a sense of accomplishment and the character progression is extremely slow, with new gear upgrades coming at you about once a month.
    It's starting to feel like, what's the point if there's no challenge?
    A couple of points: One, judging Classic in terms of raiding is to completely misunderstand Classic. Classic is about the World, the community and adventure. Two, content in retail WoW is hardly insanely challenging - any tricky fights are soon nerfed after the first few world kills, or not that long after that.

  2. #802
    Quote Originally Posted by Altariaz View Post
    A couple of points: One, judging Classic in terms of raiding is to completely misunderstand Classic. Classic is about the World, the community and adventure. Two, content in retail WoW is hardly insanely challenging - any tricky fights are soon nerfed after the first few world kills, or not that long after that.
    The first point is 100% subjective - the community has shown itself to be a toxic cesspit of drama and bullshit.

    As to your second point............

    M: N'Zoth the Corruptor 101 (0.58%)

    Strange that only 0.5% of ppl have managed to kill something that isnt that challenging.

  3. #803
    Immortal jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    The first point is 100% subjective - the community has shown itself to be a toxic cesspit of drama and bullshit.

    As to your second point............

    M: N'Zoth the Corruptor 101 (0.58%)

    Strange that only 0.5% of ppl have managed to kill something that isnt that challenging.
    I would just posit that the retail community is similar, which is unsurprising because it's largely a shared playerbase. One could also argue that the gaming community as a whole is the same.

    But yes, anyone claiming the highest tier of raiding in Retail is higher than the highest tier of raiding in Classic is simply incorrect by any number of calculable metrics. That's okay though, because they're different games and they don't need to be harder or easier in order to be enjoyable.

    ITT: There are so many people too insecure to just enjoy what they enjoy without feeling like they need to prop it up. There's no need to justify playing what you like, even if it's not the hardest game out there. None of this is e-sports and none of it really matters except that you have fun doing it.

    And hey, if Classic raiding is challenging for you - that's fine. Enjoy your challenge. Just have fun and forget about how many players play what, what kind of raid difficulties there are, or any of the other nonsense people argue about. In the end it's all just video games.
    Last edited by jackofwind; 2020-03-18 at 12:31 AM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  4. #804
    Quote Originally Posted by jackofwind View Post
    I would just posit that the retail community is similar, which is unsurprising because it's largely a shared playerbase.

    One could also argue that the gaming community as a whole is the same.
    I can agree with this - I have always argued that the community is the same, with the extremes being those who are ANTI classic or ANTI retail, rather than pro classic / pro retail, being by far the most toxic morons i have ever encountered. However my personal experience is that there is far more hatred from classic players towards retail than the other way around, with classic forums full of discussion about retail, while retail forums have extremely limited discussion around classic.

    For the most part retail players seem quite happy sitting on the forums talking about the good and bad of retail without bringing classic into the discussion, while threads on the classic forums dont usually last 1 page without someone having a crack at retail.

  5. #805
    Quote Originally Posted by jackofwind View Post
    They fixed the LoS bug that let you avoid SF using both the throne and the draconid doors.

    So yeah, Nef P2 requires an Ony cloak for everyone that doesn't want to just die instantly if they don't partially resist SF (which is possible but is a very low chance RNG). You don't need cloaks for the drake bosses unless you're tanking, and if they're SF'ing the raid it's probably a wipe anyways.

    It's a weird thing to double down on since it's so easily checked and such common knowledge to any guild that's clearing BWL.
    I was in bwl pug earlier and people could still avoid shadowflame behind the throne. Just make sure they hide early and it's fine.

  6. #806
    If you were to ask this same question 15 years ago, the answer would've been different, but that's not the case now. Classic WoW is always gonna be static content from 15 years ago, that millions of players ran for years on retail. It's not supposed to be hard anymore, its outdated content brought back for players to experience in eternally relevant locked vanilla servers.

    Classic is beyond easy now, but it still requires some time investment.

  7. #807
    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    Classic is great to just have a really simple adventure through leveling, maybe grind some mobs/quests, and hopefully once in a while group up with others and have some nice social experiences. The above is fairly easy, but I don't know why it could be considered "too" easy given it accomplishes what it intends to accomplish.
    This! Classic was never intended for the modern WoW culture with minmaxing, mods telling you what to do and when, the hardcore push to get everything out of your character and 20 alts. It was a simple slow-paced adventure. Adventure being the keyword. Not race, not competition. Adventure. Like Bilbo and the dwarves, or Arthas and the mercenaries. With modern players looking for something entirely different, this design, given how naively simple it is, obviously falls apart.

    If you are looking for a challenge, Vanilla is not it. Vanilla is a long and slow journey that requires you to build your own story, by which you start to relate to your character and each talent point, each piece of gear feels extremely satisfying and personal. If you are looking for a different kind of gameplay, then you won't even be able to enjoy it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I can agree with this - I have always argued that the community is the same, with the extremes being those who are ANTI classic or ANTI retail, rather than pro classic / pro retail, being by far the most toxic morons i have ever encountered. However my personal experience is that there is far more hatred from classic players towards retail than the other way around, with classic forums full of discussion about retail, while retail forums have extremely limited discussion around classic.

    For the most part retail players seem quite happy sitting on the forums talking about the good and bad of retail without bringing classic into the discussion, while threads on the classic forums dont usually last 1 page without someone having a crack at retail.
    Well, are you surprised? Classic and TBC represent a certain design philosophy. Philosophy that has originally made WoW become the cultural phenomenon that it still is. With WLK and further expansions though, a lot of these people were being more and more alienated with ground-level changes to game's design. This is good enough reason to be bitter/butthurt.

    If it wasn't enough, now that they finally have it back, they need to live with the fact that it will never become anything more than TBC. It will never tell any new stories, lead them to any new lands. They will never get the fight the dangers of Northrend or discover the lost continent of Pandaria in the old Classic style. Old table-top RPG style, I'd say.

    Not only that, Classic is not what we remembered. Well, we make it not what we remembered. Players' mentality has changed, our knowledge and skill has grown infinitely since 2004. The struggle in Stratholme is gone. The wonders of this ruined jewel are gone. And it's not a stretch to say that the way WoW has evolved over the years is one of the factors. If WLK didn't make things so damn easy and accessible we'd still be left wondering about the instance we're clearing during our 50th mana break between 3 packs of trash. If WoD didn't make leveling so amazing, we wouldn't feel bored and tired with Vanilla's lack of story etc.

    So all in all, people are longing for the Vanilla-esque sandbox-like design philosophy. For the feeling of adventure, not military commando. For a world that feels unknown, wild and dangerous. Yet, at the same time they crave all the great QoL improvements, the amazing new stories and mechanics that each new expansion has introduced. Yet they are never allowed to have both, because Blizzard is either incapable or unwilling of providing this. Not saying that it's an easy or even a possible task, but can you really blame the classic community for hating on retail? Pretty sure what they feel is very natural.

  8. #808
    Quote Originally Posted by InflaterMouse View Post
    I don't disagree but again I would equate the issues with the content during vanilla to be more logistical and people caused than the raid content being too hard. That was my point in my posts. There was a crap load of prep work, attunements, resist gear, planning and coordination to just get to the first trash pull. So when a raid was well organized and and finely tuned it wasn't that huge a concern. The raid content wasn't extremely difficult in vanilla, getting to the raid with enough people, gear, provisions, and knowledge was a significant issue in logistics.

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    Yes, I have been raiding since the game launched raids and the GM of our guild (still with 31 of our original members). We were running 2 10 man and 2 25 mans during WOTLK alone, of which part of the secondary raids were flushed out with alts. Mind you before WOTLK we didn't have different difficulties of raid tiers. TBC was the last expansion that took people more than one week to clear raids unless they were gated.

    I mean world first is only cool because of how quickly they accomplish without all the gear they need in place. We currently have people farming mythic now in retail that aren't hardcore raiding guilds. People always forget to equate things into the conversation like a much more skilled player base, better internet connections, better PCs/GPUs, better addons and so on. The list is a mile long but I can tell you from raiding as long as we have as a guild the player skill levels are a million times better now than then. And they get better every year. Honestly I would hate to be a dev trying to bring new and challenging content to the player base.


    Which "non hardcore" guild are you refering to who is farming Mythic Ny'Alotha?
    107 guilds have cleared it in total world wide. More than 50% of them this week after the nerfs hit.

    Even then, the guilds who recently cleared it have more then 20 wipes on several bosses on mythic and several wipes on heroic even.
    And all of them are raiding monday through friday according to warcraftlogs schedules. Some even every day / week.

    Edit: Even Clomplexity Limit who cleared it world first had 20 wipes in their last run.
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/1WL6tqTdDj8gfKBH

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohut View Post
    I think that just means that most hardcore guilds transferred to Classic when that came out. Classic is not easier. Classic players are just better.
    Obvious troll but just for my own amusement, which hardcore guild transferred from retail to classic?
    Last edited by d00mh4cker; 2020-03-18 at 08:14 AM.

  9. #809
    Quote Originally Posted by d00mh4cker View Post
    Obvious troll but just for my own amusement, which hardcore guild transferred from retail to classic?
    Doubt any fullblown guilds transfered, but within those tryhard Classic guilds, you will always find a few people with a hardcore raiding background.

  10. #810

  11. #811
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    ARE YOU DRUNK?

    First if all, you didn't need any prep work to clear any raids in vanilla and you sure as hell don't need it in classic. Yeah raids took a while to get through but that's because people didn't know anything. People were doing as low as 100 dps because they just didn't know. Now in classic, the same content, we got people like me turning up to bwl and one shotting that shit. Literal walk in, don't remember anything and clearing that shit in 2 hours. No consumables. No world buffs. Still wearing greens I found on the ground. One shots.

    Second. No you haven't raided since vanilla. You talk like someone who has watched a lot of vanilla kill videos and thought that the electronic music was real catchy and the pixelated hunter doing 150 dps looked real cool. You can tell because you think raids don't last longer than a week. Every raid this expac has lasted more than a week.

    Thirdly, you think casual guilds are the ones clearing mythic. I doubt that any are casual until after they clear. You want to know what casual is? Me rocking in up to BWL after 3 weeks absence (like a lot of the raid), casually getting my spot back and auto attacking my way through 8 one shots. I didn't even bother having a pet. The hardest content in the game cleared by someone who would be booted from LFR for being afk.
    You should read the post before you fly off the handle acting like a mouth breather spitting while you speak and type. Out side of my comment regarding the logistics of the raids in classic you basically said the same thing I did. I just didn't drool on myself and rake shit off my desk while typing and screaming at my pc. Try again...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohut View Post
    I think that just means that most hardcore guilds transferred to Classic when that came out. Classic is not easier. Classic players are just better.
    Classic raid mechanics are night and day WAY FKING easy compared to current content. Are you trolling? Can't tell if trolling....

  12. #812
    Quote Originally Posted by InflaterMouse View Post
    You should read the post before you fly off the handle acting like a mouth breather spitting while you speak and type. Out side of my comment regarding the logistics of the raids in classic you basically said the same thing I did. I just didn't drool on myself and rake shit off my desk while typing and screaming at my pc. Try again...

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    Classic raid mechanics are night and day WAY FKING easy compared to current content. Are you trolling? Can't tell if trolling....
    Nice necro.
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    Shadow deserves nothing, the same as Fire Mages.

  13. #813
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    Classic has extremely little content if you're not a raider or a serious PvP:er, however I'm beginning to feel that the content it does have is way too easy. Raids are cleared the first reset by most guilds and then you're back to raid logging for farm raids that are almost as easy as LFR is in retail.
    It doesn't give you a sense of accomplishment and the character progression is extremely slow, with new gear upgrades coming at you about once a month.
    It's starting to feel like, what's the point if there's no challenge?
    this happens when people with 16 years of experience do stuff. also its very subjective.

    i have good analogy for it. situation in gym - dude with 10 years of experience comes and easily bench presses 100kg in series . then comes johny average sees this and thinks - wow that ust be easy . he tries 60kg once and it almost crushes him .

    same is with classic - its only easy if you are seasoned player and know what you are doing. or have others to carry you .

    otherwise its relatively difficult to even get through leveling period.

  14. #814
    tell that to those guys wiping in Deadmines right now
    Shadowlands is real world
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    The Jailer is China government
    Sylvanas is Blizz

  15. #815
    Herald of the Titans czarek's Avatar
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    May it be easy bot not that much i think. Mechanics are known and mastered during all those years. Classic is quite simple but mistakes hurt a lot. 1 man could just wipe whole raid in a sec :P

  16. #816
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    this happens when people with 16 years of experience do stuff. also its very subjective.

    i have good analogy for it. situation in gym - dude with 10 years of experience comes and easily bench presses 100kg in series . then comes johny average sees this and thinks - wow that ust be easy . he tries 60kg once and it almost crushes him .

    same is with classic - its only easy if you are seasoned player and know what you are doing. or have others to carry you .

    otherwise its relatively difficult to even get through leveling period.
    Stop with this "all classic players have 16 years experience".

    I have friends who started playing wow in MoP who just roflstomped every content in classic. They are loggers who only log on raid days, no prep at all and they breezed through bwl first day. They still enjoy it but it's easy, dont try to make it anything else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by czarek View Post
    May it be easy bot not that much i think. Mechanics are known and mastered during all those years. Classic is quite simple but mistakes hurt a lot. 1 man could just wipe whole raid in a sec :P
    And how is that done? Tell me one scenario where one guy can wipe the entire raid.

    And dont answer "well if the main tank goes offline during the encounter it's a wipe".

  17. #817
    Herald of the Titans czarek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by d00mh4cker View Post
    Stop with this "all classic players have 16 years experience".

    I have friends who started playing wow in MoP who just roflstomped every content in classic. They are loggers who only log on raid days, no prep at all and they breezed through bwl first day. They still enjoy it but it's easy, dont try to make it anything else.

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    And how is that done? Tell me one scenario where one guy can wipe the entire raid.

    And dont answer "well if the main tank goes offline during the encounter it's a wipe".
    Just do overaggro for example? Boss breath whole raid die gg. Im not sayin its hard stuff. I want to point that simple mistakes could just hurt a lot in classic. Dont be so tucky kiddo
    Last edited by czarek; 2020-04-15 at 08:21 AM.

  18. #818
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    Most catastrophes in Classic boil down to the tank dying on untauntable bosses and people pulling aggro. Basically negligence really if you want to be perfectly honest. Pulling aggro is just incredibly dumb because threat meters exist and damage checks really don't exist in Classic (at least meaningful ones).

    Outside of that there are fights where individuals in a 40 man raid can wipe your entire group, but those are few and far between and most of them entail people being actively asleep because the amount of time you have to react is pretty massive (think both Geddon and Vael, you have so much time to move). Of course these exist in Classic too, but it's mainly confined to a few encounters in Naxxaramas, and the pull on C'thun.

    By and large the reaction time on live needs to be massively higher, multiple of these type of abilities usually present themselves throughout the same encounter, and nearly every boss actually has a DPS check or healing check. Raid healing isn't all that important in Classic and that the reason most wipes happen in Classic is because too many healers try to sneak heals in on DPS, and the tank falls over in several seconds.

  19. #819
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    i have good analogy for it. situation in gym - dude with 10 years of experience comes and easily bench presses 100kg in series . then comes johny average sees this and thinks - wow that ust be easy . he tries 60kg once and it almost crushes him.
    I'm not sure that's a good analogy. Guilds that have never played Classic are still steamrolling the content because of how easy it is. If anything it doesn't matter if you have 10 years experience or 1 year because of the low bar. It's like those two guys at the gym lifting a carton of milk, it's just as easy for both of them.

  20. #820
    What other content do you need OP to spice things up?

    When i was playing in Vanilla, after i was done with my ranking (managed up to rank 12) i was only raid logging and pvping once in a while, which i really think was PERFECT. If i had to farm some materials i did some of that as well, with some open pvp ofc and that's all. If i was into crafting i would do that as well.

    I was quite entertained with that. I was playing pvp which i loved, and pve which i loved as well, for me anything else such as farming gold or crafting was a boring chorus.

    Fast forward in BFA i had to do so many other things to perform in the contents that i liked that obviously drained the fun aspect of the game out of me. I could not see the point in doing so many world quests, farm all those materials for pots, flasks, vantuses because they are tuned in such a way that you simply can't perform no matter how well you hit your buttons.

    For me Retail is a lot better than classic due to mythic+ dungeons but in both terms of pvp and pve is lacking. PVP is only arenas nowadays (which are fine, they are quite fun) and PVE is only for those people that do all the chorus things outside raiding (which again is exceptional) to enjoy it.

    For me the ideal WoW would be a blend of everything. Some world quests for gold, Class design and balance of classes that was in TBC, One raid difficulty tuned accordingly, Mythic+ dungeons and Arenas for the competitive scene and nice BGs to have fun. It would be great to have solo content and meaningful professions ffxiv style but as a side thing for those lone wolfs or when you want something relaxing to do.

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