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  1. #1081
    I am Murloc! dacoolist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McNeil View Post
    I shared my thoughts at some point but since this is now a huge thread and I can't find it back, I'll just share them again:

    Classic raiding is way easier than how it was in vanilla. This ofcourse is mostly due to players knowing the game all to well and have gotten better over time. But part of it is also because we are playing at the latest client which also made the raids easier. We have much better computers and internet connections, there are well written guides and videos easily accesible, we have much better voice communications etc. Classic worked as a new game being released in 2004, but being re-released in 2020 it could have used some number tweaking due to the advantages we have now which were not tuned for in 2004. I would have at least buffed all bosses by 20% to make up for it.

    Its also why I'd approve a possible Classic+, because they could make new 40 man raids that they can probably tune for the players today. Make them way harder and keep the one difficulty. I'm only not a fan of the world buff meta but I doubt that people will want to see it go away.

    Also I don't find that the majority of retail raiding is that hard either. LFR is easy, normal is easy, heroic is now mostly easy except for maybe a few bosses, mythic remains hard except for maybe the earlier bosses depending on your raid. So basically about 85% of retail raiding is easy aswell. Since the fights are all new it takes some time to learn them ofcourse, but then after a few weeks they just get rolled over quite easily if its not on mythic. Mythic+ dungeons is also hard content but thats like 1 of the 4 dungeon difficulties available. Its good that there are both casual and more hardcore options, but for the vast majority they generally don't care for the hardest difficulty. One thing retail raiding does horribly is turning previous raids completely obsolete once a new raid releases, while Classic keeps raids progressive so often you have guilds still raiding every raid, which also means more content for them.

    As for the difficulty in the open world its a lot more difficult than on retail. Its so easy to get ambushed by mobs around you and there's a good chance that you won't survive unless you have some slows or use health potions. On retail I can just pull a whole group and AoE them down with about every class. The group quests are also a lot harder, some of them actually take quite some time to even complete. One example is when I tried to do the Thule Ravenclaw quest which required you to have 5 players, we 3-manned it but it took some attempts as we were all to low level. We tried to CC the mobs around him but they had a good chance of dodging every spell. I honestly don't see why anyone would say Classic leveling is easier than retail where you can just steamroll your way to max without even entering the world.
    I agree with everything you said but a few little points I'd like to ask:

    Have you beat nzoth on lfr? And link your armory so I don't need to ask any other questions

    The reason I'm saying this is, all of your points are spot on, but I see a few things that don't add up when it comes to the retail side IMO

    Do I think the boss's are easy after a few weeks and especially now that corruption is so dang op it makes up for 10-20+ % of peoples damage overall, that's like world buffs in classic right.. my thing is though: as a casual I think retails pretty easy ONCE you have the achieves logs and gear, but until you get them, you're fighting this up hill battle of grinding out essences, pvp, and M+.. and by the time you have everything.. theirs no need to play anymore because you have it all.. that's the difference to me on Retail Vs Classic: in classic you get your bis because you've played private servers for 8 years, then you move onto another toon, get bis and move to another. With bis you'll never get better, and that's the end at least for the carrot on a stick grind. Once everyone farms out naxx.. I mean that's it right? Classic TBC will be completely separate right, like why would they allow you to carry over all your stuff from classic vanilla right, they will make you level up to cap anew I would guess

    I guess my point overall: each version of the game has its grinds or annoyances - its all about the community good or bad, and because we know what to expect: classic gets rolled over day 1 in an hour because the games much easier when you've been practicing it on private for 8 years before a lot of these nubs that don't even know what's going on even step foot in.

    Retail is always an up or downhill, and it's either dogshit easy or way tough so that it excludes the playerbase and that's exactly what happened at the beginning of Cata.. the playerbase WANTED harder content, blizz released it and literally the playerbase fell to the floor because even basic B dungeons were actually decently tough for us "casual" players at least.

    Classic is grindy Retail is easy: That's pretty much the gist of is UNTIL you get into hard content, then each version takes a nose dive into the abyss (high level pvp, raids, etc)

  2. #1082
    Quote Originally Posted by dacoolist View Post
    I agree with everything you said but a few little points I'd like to ask:

    Have you beat nzoth on lfr? And link your armory so I don't need to ask any other questions

    The reason I'm saying this is, all of your points are spot on, but I see a few things that don't add up when it comes to the retail side IMO

    Do I think the boss's are easy after a few weeks and especially now that corruption is so dang op it makes up for 10-20+ % of peoples damage overall, that's like world buffs in classic right.. my thing is though: as a casual I think retails pretty easy ONCE you have the achieves logs and gear, but until you get them, you're fighting this up hill battle of grinding out essences, pvp, and M+.. and by the time you have everything.. theirs no need to play anymore because you have it all.. that's the difference to me on Retail Vs Classic: in classic you get your bis because you've played private servers for 8 years, then you move onto another toon, get bis and move to another. With bis you'll never get better, and that's the end at least for the carrot on a stick grind. Once everyone farms out naxx.. I mean that's it right? Classic TBC will be completely separate right, like why would they allow you to carry over all your stuff from classic vanilla right, they will make you level up to cap anew I would guess

    I guess my point overall: each version of the game has its grinds or annoyances - its all about the community good or bad, and because we know what to expect: classic gets rolled over day 1 in an hour because the games much easier when you've been practicing it on private for 8 years before a lot of these nubs that don't even know what's going on even step foot in.

    Retail is always an up or downhill, and it's either dogshit easy or way tough so that it excludes the playerbase and that's exactly what happened at the beginning of Cata.. the playerbase WANTED harder content, blizz released it and literally the playerbase fell to the floor because even basic B dungeons were actually decently tough for us "casual" players at least.

    Classic is grindy Retail is easy: That's pretty much the gist of is UNTIL you get into hard content, then each version takes a nose dive into the abyss (high level pvp, raids, etc)
    But what part of classic is hard? If we ignore grindy then that leaves nothing. You don't have to be good to rank in PvP, just committed to 18 hour days. You don't have to be good to raid which is shown by the 34% of full clears in AQ. Maybe it's the elites out there in the world that are actually dangerous. Yes. It is the elites in the world that makes classic hard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  3. #1083
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkimpact View Post
    So you claim to have killed C'Thun AND Twins in 1 to 2 attempts with no pre-fight experience, no prep, no communication, and no consumables day 1? How about Visc? Same claim? I also call bullshit.

    If this is true let's see some logs.
    Why the hell would a bunch of ultra casual classic players be logging? This is brain-dead easy content for us, we are not chasing perfect kills and high ranked speed clears - just like the majority of classic raiders, we rock up, have some laughs, kill some bosses, and socialise and enjoy ourselves.

  4. #1084
    I am Murloc! dacoolist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    But what part of classic is hard? If we ignore grindy then that leaves nothing. You don't have to be good to rank in PvP, just committed to 18 hour days. You don't have to be good to raid which is shown by the 34% of full clears in AQ. Maybe it's the elites out there in the world that are actually dangerous. Yes. It is the elites in the world that makes classic hard.
    Agreed, I guess to me since I dont have like infinite time anymore - the grind is tough for me to do. The skill cap or ceiling may be a lot lower in classic because we know every single fight in and out even someone like me whose casual in retail - but the issue people also dont get about classic that us retail players blow over is how much power we bring to the table: Example. I'm a shit player at the game, but I try to outweigh my shittyness with players that are WAY BETTER, whether its with gold or being extra friendly with some people even if I dont like them to be able to group with them to make content in retail easier: in classic you just have your ability your one single thing you bring to the raid, and as long as you check all the box's you get the loot eventually: in retail the skill ceiling is likely higher but I just think for someone like myself who can't grind out all that crap like world buffs: I would be so dogshit in classic

  5. #1085
    Quote Originally Posted by tangers58 View Post
    Almost as if people have had 15 years to learn how the fights work
    Including all the people from retail who havent seen any fights, don't bother watching videos, and listen to a 15 sec explanation from a guy who remembers playing retail bit now admits that he probably forgot how to do the fight. Myself and my mates are in that category. I've raided since vanilla but I can barely remember mechanics from last patch let alone 15 years ago. Lucky it's pretty easy and if we do wipe then it's pretty obvious what that mechanic was that killed you. Because there's only one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  6. #1086
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    But what part of classic is hard? If we ignore grindy then that leaves nothing. You don't have to be good to rank in PvP, just committed to 18 hour days. You don't have to be good to raid which is shown by the 34% of full clears in AQ. Maybe it's the elites out there in the world that are actually dangerous. Yes. It is the elites in the world that makes classic hard.
    One time, in classic, i went to an area that was higher than me, and i got killed by some mobs. Classic is super hard bro, that NEVER happens in retail. Well, other than all the rare elites. And zones full of elites like Naz - until everyone over-geared it, that place was an absolute graveyard. Side note - the first few days in the new zones during BfA was amazing - watching people rush in and pull 6 mobs - only to die almost immediately. I spent an hour standing back just watching one day - it was glorious!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dacoolist View Post
    Agreed, I guess to me since I dont have like infinite time anymore - the grind is tough for me to do. The skill cap or ceiling may be a lot lower in classic because we know every single fight in and out even someone like me whose casual in retail - but the issue people also dont get about classic that us retail players blow over is how much power we bring to the table: Example. I'm a shit player at the game, but I try to outweigh my shittyness with players that are WAY BETTER, whether its with gold or being extra friendly with some people even if I dont like them to be able to group with them to make content in retail easier: in classic you just have your ability your one single thing you bring to the raid, and as long as you check all the box's you get the loot eventually: in retail the skill ceiling is likely higher but I just think for someone like myself who can't grind out all that crap like world buffs: I would be so dogshit in classic
    Compared to those who grind all that crap out, you would have a SLOWER clear time, without a doubt. They might clear the raid in 45 mins, it might take your group a little over an hour, maybe 90 mins. It wont stop you from easily clearing everything in there, you just wont be as efficient as those buffed up and chugging consumables. Those guys will kill a boss in 36 seconds, but it will take you nearly one whole entire minute to kill the same boss.

  7. #1087
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    Some of it is easier such as raid mechanics but it’s far more unforgiving to mistakes.

    Secondly, the mechanic of threat is something that makes every fight infinitely harder than in retail where it is impossible to lose threat really.

    Retail needs to bring back threat mechanics
    To make something infinetly harder would require it to be impossible. 34% clear after two weeks shows that AQ40 is far from impossible
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  8. #1088
    Scarab Lord Eugenik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I love your replies - always so accurate and on point.
    You think heroic is hard? Jesus... pretty sure I could walk into a heroic pug and clear it no problem. And by pretty sure, I mean 100% certain.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkimpact View Post
    So you claim to have killed C'Thun AND Twins in 1 to 2 attempts with no pre-fight experience, no prep, no communication, and no consumables day 1? How about Visc? Same claim? I also call bullshit.

    If this is true let's see some logs.
    Dont expect evidence from this guy. Hes all talk.
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

  9. #1089
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    pretty sure I could walk into a heroic pug and clear it no problem. And by pretty sure, I mean 100% certain.



    Dont expect evidence from this guy. Hes all talk.
    The irony here is palpable.

    But yeah, sure, all you have to do is get to max level, start unlocking the cloak and farming mats to increase that, farm some mats for essences and corruptions, farm the right gear, run some M+ to get your ilvl up to snuff, and hope like hell your heroic group is a mythic geared farm group. So long as all of those obviously easy tasks are completed, and everyone carries you through, you'll be fine! I mean its not like anyone will ask for achievements or look at your raider.io, which you will obviously have automatically when you hit max level.

  10. #1090
    Quote Originally Posted by Zka View Post
    LOL NO
    Internet is one of the smallest reasons why classic is easier now. It's ridicolous when people think these few milliseconds suddenly boost your dps by 200%...

    Majority of people sucked back then. Most people playing classic have years of retail (and/or vanilla) under their belt and learned to play the game decently.
    I mean, it isn't one particular thing. it's a long ass list

    Improved internet connection

    Improved PC's

    A massive amount of experience playing video games in general compared to in 2004.

    Patch, already nerfed content, including MC trash, Ragnaros, BWL trash, Nef, Vael, Chrom, and cant remember anything but C'thun in AQ 40) as well as updated talents.

    Itemization, an insane amount of really OP gear that simply didn't exist for the raid tiers at the time, including the R14 gear.

    Internet culture, information is just shared way more easily, and communication through software like discord makes coalition for farms and World Buffs infinitely easier and more accessible, making it more widespread knowledge compared to in 2004 where no one stacked WB's like we do now, as well as easier access to gear spread sheets and pseudo sims.

    thats the examples I could think of, of the top of my head. theres a lot of other more complex things like min-max culture etc, but yeah.. I've spent most of classic listening to people tell me I cant kill Ragnaros in the first reset. was dead 6 days after launch. then I was told the real difficulty was BWL anyways, that turned out to be a joke we cleared in ~20 minutes. then they continued, AQ was a massive difficulty spike! it was when the devs started to understand the game as well, and mechanics became a thing! AQ40 was even more of a joke than BWL...

    Classic is easy, but like any game you can raise the skill cap for urself, you want more difficult PVE? actively partake in Speed runs, think of strats, cheeses, w/e u can do to min-max your time. You want more difficult PVP? go join some of the many PVP events, wether its Duel tournaments or it's WSG wargames, it's there if you want it.

  11. #1091
    Quote Originally Posted by Tumile View Post
    A massive amount of experience playing video games in general compared to in 2004.
    So just to be clear - those with 20+ years of gaming in 2004 struggled.....but now that they have had another 15 years of gaming, its easy? Man you guys are honestly too much. Just stop with the garbage excuses - it never was hard, and it still isnt.

  12. #1092
    Yes. Definitely should be buffed.
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  13. #1093
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    But what part of classic is hard? If we ignore grindy then that leaves nothing. You don't have to be good to rank in PvP, just committed to 18 hour days. You don't have to be good to raid which is shown by the 34% of full clears in AQ. Maybe it's the elites out there in the world that are actually dangerous. Yes. It is the elites in the world that makes classic hard.
    I believe it was a wrong stat anyway. The real number is around 80% of guilds that killed the first AQ boss, killed 9/9.

  14. #1094
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    since blizzards retail treadmill wow game design, i am really NOT sure about that...
    The treadmill isn’t required and if you’re comparing someone who insists on taking it to the min/max play style in order to make sure they get everything they want, I still insist classic takes more time.

    Yes, retail has more content in terms of what you can do and accomplish day to day. But none of which is actually required. Just like farming savage gladiators chain mail isn’t required for raiding, or farming up enough gold for edge masters or mats to raid. But the classic version of whatever play style you choose to follow is going to take longer.

    Yeah if you compare someone who raid logs in classic to someone who decides to do every single world quest everyday, of course the retail version will take longer. But the person who is doing every world quest is comparable to someone in classic who decides to farm dm:e for hours on end for gold.

  15. #1095
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    But what part of classic is hard? If we ignore grindy then that leaves nothing. You don't have to be good to rank in PvP, just committed to 18 hour days. You don't have to be good to raid which is shown by the 34% of full clears in AQ. Maybe it's the elites out there in the world that are actually dangerous. Yes. It is the elites in the world that makes classic hard.
    Ranking deffo took skill, depended on server etc, as someone who did it on one of the 3 most cancerous EU servers, It was a lot more than 18 hours a day. and it was about min maxing your Honor/hour if u wanted to sleep, which the opposition simply didn't, I wonder why? hmm.

    We got a WSG team together before it was meta, just because we could pump out 11k honor/hour while the top AV rankers were getting 9-10k honor/hour, allowing us an extra hour of sleep.

    So Ranking definitely did take skill, depending on the competition. during WSG meta we literally switched to AV 5 man queues and started the GY farm, min maxed it to perfection and were sitting on 15k honor per game. which was on par with other Horde premades, in WSG, and allowed us half an hour breaks between games to sort out IRL shit.

    You don't HAVE to be good to clear raids, but neither do you in Retail. unless ur trying to kill bosses pre-nerf and top 20 world Mythic isn't exactly a challenge. same goes for classic it's an absolute joke, but min maxing damage on a speed run is not easy.

    The difficulty isn't forced upon you in either game, it's a choice.

  16. #1096
    Quote Originally Posted by Pohut View Post
    I believe it was a wrong stat anyway. The real number is around 80% of guilds that killed the first AQ boss, killed 9/9.
    That's what the website says. But in reality it was just 34%. For some reason the optional boss is too hard for Classic players.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  17. #1097
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So just to be clear - those with 20+ years of gaming in 2004 struggled.....but now that they have had another 15 years of gaming, its easy? Man you guys are honestly too much. Just stop with the garbage excuses - it never was hard, and it still isnt.
    20+ years of gaming experience in 2004? how does any of the video games from 1984 correlate to skill in World of Warcraft? it's not a difficult topic to understand, other than that you seem incapable of reading, read the whole post and stop straw maning. at no point did I claim classic was hard, but claiming that stuff like that doesnt factor in to how easy it is, would be delusional.

  18. #1098
    Quote Originally Posted by Tumile View Post
    20+ years of gaming experience in 2004? how does any of the video games from 1984 correlate to skill in World of Warcraft? it's not a difficult topic to understand, other than that you seem incapable of reading, read the whole post and stop straw maning. at no point did I claim classic was hard, but claiming that stuff like that doesnt factor in to how easy it is, would be delusional.
    You never said anything about WoW you mentioned generic gaming. So you were either wrong then or wrong now. You can't have 2 contradictory statements both be right.

  19. #1099
    Quote Originally Posted by Tumile View Post
    20+ years of gaming experience in 2004? how does any of the video games from 1984 correlate to skill in World of Warcraft? it's not a difficult topic to understand.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tumile View Post
    A massive amount of experience playing video games in general compared to in 2004.
    This is your quote, since you apparently forgot what you said?

  20. #1100
    Quote Originally Posted by Zka View Post
    LOL NO
    Internet is one of the smallest reasons why classic is easier now. It's ridicolous when people think these few milliseconds suddenly boost your dps by 200%...

    Majority of people sucked back then. Most people playing classic have years of retail (and/or vanilla) under their belt and learned to play the game decently.
    Im not suggesting classic is hard by any imaginable sense of the word, but slower internet/hardware in general for sure had a major impact.

    I’m just saying this because back then I was on terrible terrible internet and I was probably running at like 20fps max in 5 man instances and like 5-10 fps in high traffic areas.

    It for sure effected my gameplay a ton, not suggesting I could have been a level 30 noob and went to a gladiator overnight given the hardware upgrade, but it would have made a substantial difference.

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