Is Classic too easy?

[dacoolist]

But what part of classic is hard? If we ignore grindy then that leaves nothing. You don't have to be good to rank in PvP, just committed to 18 hour days. You don't have to be good to raid which is shown by the 34% of full clears in AQ. Maybe it's the elites out there in the world that are actually dangerous. Yes. It is the elites in the world that makes classic hard.

Agreed, I guess to me since I dont have like infinite time anymore - the grind is tough for me to do. The skill cap or ceiling may be a lot lower in classic because we know every single fight in and out even someone like me whose casual in retail - but the issue people also dont get about classic that us retail players blow over is how much power we bring to the table: Example. I'm a shit player at the game, but I try to outweigh my shittyness with players that are WAY BETTER, whether its with gold or being extra friendly with some people even if I dont like them to be able to group with them to make content in retail easier: in classic you just have your ability your one single thing you bring to the raid, and as long as you check all the box's you get the loot eventually: in retail the skill ceiling is likely higher but I just think for someone like myself who can't grind out all that crap like world buffs: I would be so dogshit in classic

[munkeyinorbit]

Almost as if people have had 15 years to learn how the fights work

Including all the people from retail who havent seen any fights, don't bother watching videos, and listen to a 15 sec explanation from a guy who remembers playing retail bit now admits that he probably forgot how to do the fight. Myself and my mates are in that category. I've raided since vanilla but I can barely remember mechanics from last patch let alone 15 years ago. Lucky it's pretty easy and if we do wipe then it's pretty obvious what that mechanic was that killed you. Because there's only one.

[arkanon]

But what part of classic is hard? If we ignore grindy then that leaves nothing. You don't have to be good to rank in PvP, just committed to 18 hour days. You don't have to be good to raid which is shown by the 34% of full clears in AQ. Maybe it's the elites out there in the world that are actually dangerous. Yes. It is the elites in the world that makes classic hard.

One time, in classic, i went to an area that was higher than me, and i got killed by some mobs. Classic is super hard bro, that NEVER happens in retail. Well, other than all the rare elites. And zones full of elites like Naz - until everyone over-geared it, that place was an absolute graveyard. Side note - the first few days in the new zones during BfA was amazing - watching people rush in and pull 6 mobs - only to die almost immediately. I spent an hour standing back just watching one day - it was glorious!

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Agreed, I guess to me since I dont have like infinite time anymore - the grind is tough for me to do. The skill cap or ceiling may be a lot lower in classic because we know every single fight in and out even someone like me whose casual in retail - but the issue people also dont get about classic that us retail players blow over is how much power we bring to the table: Example. I'm a shit player at the game, but I try to outweigh my shittyness with players that are WAY BETTER, whether its with gold or being extra friendly with some people even if I dont like them to be able to group with them to make content in retail easier: in classic you just have your ability your one single thing you bring to the raid, and as long as you check all the box's you get the loot eventually: in retail the skill ceiling is likely higher but I just think for someone like myself who can't grind out all that crap like world buffs: I would be so dogshit in classic

Compared to those who grind all that crap out, you would have a SLOWER clear time, without a doubt. They might clear the raid in 45 mins, it might take your group a little over an hour, maybe 90 mins. It wont stop you from easily clearing everything in there, you just wont be as efficient as those buffed up and chugging consumables. Those guys will kill a boss in 36 seconds, but it will take you nearly one whole entire minute to kill the same boss.

[munkeyinorbit]

Some of it is easier such as raid mechanics but it’s far more unforgiving to mistakes.

Secondly, the mechanic of threat is something that makes every fight infinitely harder than in retail where it is impossible to lose threat really.

Retail needs to bring back threat mechanics

To make something infinetly harder would require it to be impossible. 34% clear after two weeks shows that AQ40 is far from impossible

[Daymanmb]

I love your replies - always so accurate and on point.

You think heroic is hard? Jesus... pretty sure I could walk into a heroic pug and clear it no problem. And by pretty sure, I mean 100% certain.

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So you claim to have killed C'Thun AND Twins in 1 to 2 attempts with no pre-fight experience, no prep, no communication, and no consumables day 1? How about Visc? Same claim? I also call bullshit.

If this is true let's see some logs.

Dont expect evidence from this guy. Hes all talk.

[arkanon]

pretty sure I could walk into a heroic pug and clear it no problem. And by pretty sure, I mean 100% certain.



Dont expect evidence from this guy. Hes all talk.

The irony here is palpable.

But yeah, sure, all you have to do is get to max level, start unlocking the cloak and farming mats to increase that, farm some mats for essences and corruptions, farm the right gear, run some M+ to get your ilvl up to snuff, and hope like hell your heroic group is a mythic geared farm group. So long as all of those obviously easy tasks are completed, and everyone carries you through, you'll be fine! I mean its not like anyone will ask for achievements or look at your raider.io, which you will obviously have automatically when you hit max level.

[Tumile]

LOL NO
Internet is one of the smallest reasons why classic is easier now. It's ridicolous when people think these few milliseconds suddenly boost your dps by 200%...

Majority of people sucked back then. Most people playing classic have years of retail (and/or vanilla) under their belt and learned to play the game decently.

I mean, it isn't one particular thing. it's a long ass list

Improved internet connection

Improved PC's

A massive amount of experience playing video games in general compared to in 2004.

Patch, already nerfed content, including MC trash, Ragnaros, BWL trash, Nef, Vael, Chrom, and cant remember anything but C'thun in AQ 40) as well as updated talents.

Itemization, an insane amount of really OP gear that simply didn't exist for the raid tiers at the time, including the R14 gear.

Internet culture, information is just shared way more easily, and communication through software like discord makes coalition for farms and World Buffs infinitely easier and more accessible, making it more widespread knowledge compared to in 2004 where no one stacked WB's like we do now, as well as easier access to gear spread sheets and pseudo sims.

thats the examples I could think of, of the top of my head. theres a lot of other more complex things like min-max culture etc, but yeah.. I've spent most of classic listening to people tell me I cant kill Ragnaros in the first reset. was dead 6 days after launch. then I was told the real difficulty was BWL anyways, that turned out to be a joke we cleared in ~20 minutes. then they continued, AQ was a massive difficulty spike! it was when the devs started to understand the game as well, and mechanics became a thing! AQ40 was even more of a joke than BWL...

Classic is easy, but like any game you can raise the skill cap for urself, you want more difficult PVE? actively partake in Speed runs, think of strats, cheeses, w/e u can do to min-max your time. You want more difficult PVP? go join some of the many PVP events, wether its Duel tournaments or it's WSG wargames, it's there if you want it.

[arkanon]

A massive amount of experience playing video games in general compared to in 2004.

So just to be clear - those with 20+ years of gaming in 2004 struggled.....but now that they have had another 15 years of gaming, its easy? Man you guys are honestly too much. Just stop with the garbage excuses - it never was hard, and it still isnt.

[Egregious]

Yes. Definitely should be buffed.

[Pohut]

But what part of classic is hard? If we ignore grindy then that leaves nothing. You don't have to be good to rank in PvP, just committed to 18 hour days. You don't have to be good to raid which is shown by the 34% of full clears in AQ. Maybe it's the elites out there in the world that are actually dangerous. Yes. It is the elites in the world that makes classic hard.

I believe it was a wrong stat anyway. The real number is around 80% of guilds that killed the first AQ boss, killed 9/9.

[Mosha]

since blizzards retail treadmill wow game design, i am really NOT sure about that...

The treadmill isn’t required and if you’re comparing someone who insists on taking it to the min/max play style in order to make sure they get everything they want, I still insist classic takes more time.

Yes, retail has more content in terms of what you can do and accomplish day to day. But none of which is actually required. Just like farming savage gladiators chain mail isn’t required for raiding, or farming up enough gold for edge masters or mats to raid. But the classic version of whatever play style you choose to follow is going to take longer.

Yeah if you compare someone who raid logs in classic to someone who decides to do every single world quest everyday, of course the retail version will take longer. But the person who is doing every world quest is comparable to someone in classic who decides to farm dm:e for hours on end for gold.

[Tumile]

But what part of classic is hard? If we ignore grindy then that leaves nothing. You don't have to be good to rank in PvP, just committed to 18 hour days. You don't have to be good to raid which is shown by the 34% of full clears in AQ. Maybe it's the elites out there in the world that are actually dangerous. Yes. It is the elites in the world that makes classic hard.

Ranking deffo took skill, depended on server etc, as someone who did it on one of the 3 most cancerous EU servers, It was a lot more than 18 hours a day. and it was about min maxing your Honor/hour if u wanted to sleep, which the opposition simply didn't, I wonder why? hmm.

We got a WSG team together before it was meta, just because we could pump out 11k honor/hour while the top AV rankers were getting 9-10k honor/hour, allowing us an extra hour of sleep.

So Ranking definitely did take skill, depending on the competition. during WSG meta we literally switched to AV 5 man queues and started the GY farm, min maxed it to perfection and were sitting on 15k honor per game. which was on par with other Horde premades, in WSG, and allowed us half an hour breaks between games to sort out IRL shit.

You don't HAVE to be good to clear raids, but neither do you in Retail. unless ur trying to kill bosses pre-nerf and top 20 world Mythic isn't exactly a challenge. same goes for classic it's an absolute joke, but min maxing damage on a speed run is not easy.

The difficulty isn't forced upon you in either game, it's a choice.

[munkeyinorbit]

I believe it was a wrong stat anyway. The real number is around 80% of guilds that killed the first AQ boss, killed 9/9.

That's what the website says. But in reality it was just 34%. For some reason the optional boss is too hard for Classic players.

[Tumile]

So just to be clear - those with 20+ years of gaming in 2004 struggled.....but now that they have had another 15 years of gaming, its easy? Man you guys are honestly too much. Just stop with the garbage excuses - it never was hard, and it still isnt.

20+ years of gaming experience in 2004? how does any of the video games from 1984 correlate to skill in World of Warcraft? it's not a difficult topic to understand, other than that you seem incapable of reading, read the whole post and stop straw maning. at no point did I claim classic was hard, but claiming that stuff like that doesnt factor in to how easy it is, would be delusional.

[Pohut]

20+ years of gaming experience in 2004? how does any of the video games from 1984 correlate to skill in World of Warcraft? it's not a difficult topic to understand, other than that you seem incapable of reading, read the whole post and stop straw maning. at no point did I claim classic was hard, but claiming that stuff like that doesnt factor in to how easy it is, would be delusional.

You never said anything about WoW you mentioned generic gaming. So you were either wrong then or wrong now. You can't have 2 contradictory statements both be right.

[arkanon]

20+ years of gaming experience in 2004? how does any of the video games from 1984 correlate to skill in World of Warcraft? it's not a difficult topic to understand.

A massive amount of experience playing video games in general compared to in 2004.

This is your quote, since you apparently forgot what you said?

[Mosha]

LOL NO
Internet is one of the smallest reasons why classic is easier now. It's ridicolous when people think these few milliseconds suddenly boost your dps by 200%...

Majority of people sucked back then. Most people playing classic have years of retail (and/or vanilla) under their belt and learned to play the game decently.

Im not suggesting classic is hard by any imaginable sense of the word, but slower internet/hardware in general for sure had a major impact.

I’m just saying this because back then I was on terrible terrible internet and I was probably running at like 20fps max in 5 man instances and like 5-10 fps in high traffic areas.

It for sure effected my gameplay a ton, not suggesting I could have been a level 30 noob and went to a gladiator overnight given the hardware upgrade, but it would have made a substantial difference.

[Super Kami Dende]

Useless discussion.

Thats like asking if a 50 year old sport car was good compared to this day.

At the time it was hard, now its easy.

No it wasn't. Players were just worse. The game wasn't any harder.

[munkeyinorbit]

Ranking deffo took skill, depended on server etc, as someone who did it on one of the 3 most cancerous EU servers, It was a lot more than 18 hours a day. and it was about min maxing your Honor/hour if u wanted to sleep, which the opposition simply didn't, I wonder why? hmm.

We got a WSG team together before it was meta, just because we could pump out 11k honor/hour while the top AV rankers were getting 9-10k honor/hour, allowing us an extra hour of sleep.

So Ranking definitely did take skill, depending on the competition. during WSG meta we literally switched to AV 5 man queues and started the GY farm, min maxed it to perfection and were sitting on 15k honor per game. which was on par with other Horde premades, in WSG, and allowed us half an hour breaks between games to sort out IRL shit.

You don't HAVE to be good to clear raids, but neither do you in Retail. unless ur trying to kill bosses pre-nerf and top 20 world Mythic isn't exactly a challenge. same goes for classic it's an absolute joke, but min maxing damage on a speed run is not easy.

The difficulty isn't forced upon you in either game, it's a choice.

You say you needed skill to rank in classic PvP and then describe a grind. As soon as you get opposition you switch BG. That's not skill. That's the definition of grinding. It is as hard as grinding for black lotus.

Here's how it works. PvP is enabled in classic. The people who can stay on the longest gets the most honor. They go into the lead. Next week, you have an advantage as you are top rank. Repeat until you can start buying gear. Repeat more. Grind finished. Woah. So hard.

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20+ years of gaming experience in 2004? how does any of the video games from 1984 correlate to skill in World of Warcraft? it's not a difficult topic to understand, other than that you seem incapable of reading, read the whole post and stop straw maning. at no point did I claim classic was hard, but claiming that stuff like that doesnt factor in to how easy it is, would be delusional.

It relates to your statement that said that people didn't have 20+ years in gaming in 2004. Why am I even surprised you're moving the goalposts? You think grinding is hard.

[ONCHEhap]

No it wasn't. Players were just worse. The game wasn't any harder.

I mean difficulty directly correlates with the skill of the players.

To use dark souls as an example (since that's the game where people can't shut up about difficulty),when Dark Souls 1 came out (or even Demon Souls),it was really hard for a lot of players. Now it's considered to be a piss easy game. Yes,players were worse then,but that did mean that the game was hard for that period of time