It doesnt matter how good you are anymore

[Gaidax]

How can anyone defend the system.

RNG is ALWAYS bad, always has been and always will be!

Anything that adds luck into the equation is god awful, and this system defenitly does.

I mean, that's how WoW works since forever. Honestly nowadays people are spoiled as fuck, back in ma' days you'd be happy if you got any sort of decent weapon at all.

I remember raiding SSC with a frikkin' blue weapon because I simply had terribad luck with drops and shit. I finally got a bloody epic spellpower weapon from guildies Kara run on my birthday months into frikkin' TBC.

And nowdays it's like "waah waah I did not get full bis setup one month into the patch - THIS IS SLAP IN THE FACE, Blizzurd!"

[Elias01]

Would be much easier to tell where the problem lies if gear wasn't a clown fiesta. If gear is equal and you lose, chances are you got outplayed. If gear is a fucking joke slot machine it becomes much harder to figure out why you lost. I had tons of fun trying for ranks in MoP and WoD, but after that gear has degenerated to a point where it just feels like a waste of time even trying when the playing field is randomly upside down.

Your prohlem is that you are looking for fairnes, balance and determistic systems in wrong game. MMORPGs and overall RPG games are not fair or balanced and never will be.

[Tradu]

I mean, that's how WoW works since forever. Honestly nowadays people are spoiled as fuck, back in ma' days you'd be happy if you got any sort of decent weapon at all.

I remember raiding SSC with a frikkin' blue weapon because I simply had terribad luck with drops and shit. I finally got a bloody epic spellpower weapon from guildies Kara run on my birthday months into frikkin' TBC.

And nowdays it's like "waah waah I did not get full bis setup one month into the patch - THIS IS SLAP IN THE FACE, Blizzurd!"

We never get BiS. That's the problem. In the past you eventually got it and the playing field was even.

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Your prohlem is that you are looking for fairnes, balance and determistic systems in wrong game. MMORPGs and overall RPG games are not fair or balanced and never will be.

Weird how Blizzard managed to do it pretty well in Wrath/Cata/MoP and to some extent WoD, then.

[Gaidax]

We never get BiS. That's the problem. In the past you eventually got it and the playing field was even.

I never understood this "we never get bis" bullshit.

So what?

Instead of one specific shopping list of items that constitute bis you now have equally good alternatives - in my book it is great, especially with corruptions where your juicy key items don't have to have corruptions, as you can just source those from elsewhere anyway due to how cap works.

I'm as much of a raider as it gets, I raided in this game all the way from Vanilla until now, with brief break end of Cata. What we have now gearing-wise is a frikkin' bliss compared to what we had in past, because you are literally having gear raining from sky in raids and shit that you gear lightning fast.

In past I would not have even 10% of what I have now with my measly 7/12 Nyalotha M. I barely stepped in and I already don't need shit from these 7 bosses, because everything I needed dropped like second to third reset. Back in your rose-tinted days, I'd be lucky to have even like 1 piece of loot and 2 would be like wtf...

Now? You get it all and more, what you complain about is utter bullshit for sake of complaining really, especially considering all the big pieces you can get are static nowadays anyway - as in Azerite, Trinkets and even Weapons. Heck you can even socket shit now too.

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I mean look at my gear, it's a bloody joke - barely 1 month in and only M7/12 2 nights guild and I am totally decked already. The only shit I am missing is just Mythic armor and Weapon which is something I am all but guaranteed to get next month.

I am sure as hell glad corruption exists, because otherwise I'd get you bis in like 5-6 next resets and then have to spend half a year (at best) twisting my thumbs in raids because nothing can possibly drop or happen to improve my gear.

[Raelbo]

I never once said they wouldn't have better gear. I said they would have comparable gear without the same level of commitment. Your argument about math doesn't go far when you can roll the dice as many times as you like. If you roll 100 times versus someone rolling once a week (Mythic commitment versus LFR commitment) you're going to come up with a bigger number more often obviously. The difference is, when the once a week roll is better than rolling 100 times a week. It's insanely stupid that someone rolling once a week can get an item as good as someone rolling 100 times a week, putting in time and effort. Even worse that those big crunchy crit rolls can come from world quests. Ever have a trinket from a World Quest be your BIS, but it didn't titanforge again so it's useless? Yet, the guy who logs in once a month, decides to do the quest and hits the lottery. There's a problem there that you're not understanding.

I understand perfectly. It's you who doesn't get it. You're so obsessed with the 1 in a million probability event that you're ignoring what actually happens every day in real life all the time. In other words, it's an imaginary problem that people like you have exaggerated on the basis that because it's mathematically possible that it's actually somehow meaningful. It's not.

You made an absurd claim that LFR raiders could have comparable gear to mythic raiders if they got really lucky. And rather than admit that you've been called out, you're trying to wriggle your way out by trying to change your argument after the fact.

Bosses are beaten in two ways: by knowing the strategy and your level of gear in raids. If you don't have the gear to survive the AOE attack, heal the group/tank, survive a massive hit as a tank, or DPS to beat an enrage timer...not even a perfect strategy can beat the boss. Look at Jaina, the first kill was mathematically figured out to how much DPS every single person had to be pulling to kill her. Can't do that in subpar gear.

Have you ever killed a boss on Mythic? Hell, even Heroic when it first comes out? Blizzard has gotten only slightly better with making the first couple of bosses in a raid weaker than the final boss in the previous difficulty, but sometimes that's just not true either. Look at how hard Heroic Kil'jaeden was for a lot of guilds. Sorry if you don't think gear plays an important role in killing a boss. You're just wrong.

Where the hell are you getting this idea that I don't think gear plays an important role in killing a boss? I never said anything remotely to that effect. My entire argument is that the gear that a mythic raider will get is significantly more effective than what an LFR raider will have.

But sure, whatever. I guess if this is the level of dishonesty that you have to go, making up random shit to attribute me so that you can "win" an argument, it just shows that don't have an actual argument at all.

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We never get BiS. That's the problem. In the past you eventually got it and the playing field was even.

Getting BiS was the problem....

But we've had this argument before and you refuse to get it. So not sure what point there in belabouring the issue further.

[Biomega]

I am sure as hell glad corruption exists, because otherwise I'd get you bis in like 5-6 next resets and then have to spend half a year (at best) twisting my thumbs in raids because nothing can possibly drop or happen to improve my gear.

I agree that this is a situation much more prevalent than the whole "we can no longer get BiS" meme. However, it's at least partially caused by Blizz's stubborn insistence of locking/restricting slots. This tier, we have neck/cloak hard locked, and 3 Azerite pieces soft locked for many specs because there are traits so good they basically disqualify alternative drops even at massively higher ilvl.

Corruption is great in many ways. A postgame progression system giving longevity/incentives to farm content is good. A kiss/curse dynamic is good.

HOWEVER

There's also problems with corruption. The RNG I don't find inherently problematic, but the spread between the high and low rolls is too big imo. Stacking the right corruption on the right items is such a massive advantage that it overpowers many other gearing/skill concerns. People should not end fights with 20% of their damage from a passive trait they were lucky enough to roll. People should not use 420 ilvl pieces in mythic raids because they have tier 3 corruptions on it. Corruption should not roll on BoEs, which then sell for millions of gold just because of the RNG lottery.

[Gaidax]

Much of that is result of them pushing the thing out of the gate too fast. If you think about it, corruption system is really massive, it's not some easymode "let's slap more ilvls lol" system and likely they did not have the time to flesh it out better in a mere patch delivery timeframe. It is a legitimate decent effort system there.

These "should not's" are legitimate, but the hotfixes also strike at this legitimate issue hard and fast and it's much better than it was on launch.

I'm sure after another round or two it will be pretty peachy and then we will have the benefits with not that much drawbacks.

And yes it will never be balanced and 100%, only a fool would expect this in WoW, I just hope it will be reasonably close.

[Blade Wolf]

THATS THE WHOLE POINT OF 8.3.

To show the players that there is no alternative to a baseline titanforge/warforge gear system or the outliers just KILL EVERY HINT OF BALANCE.

If you hate the situation right now, because it sucks if 1/3 or more of your performance is just relying on drop luck, then just remember this feeling the next time some twitch/yt-influencers demand a CHANGE for the COMMUNITY.

I suggest you just chill a bit, enjoy what you can with the last patch of the expansion and don't take it seriously, because this patch right now is meant to be a clownfiesta.

No class balance even for the last raid tier, no corruption balance with its introduction should have been a clear sign what to expect.

Or they can just go back to VP allowing us to upgrade gear.

[Eosia]

The game was better, higher rated, and far more populated when it was built on ladder progression and haves and have nots

If so, why were there population declines in Cataclysm, MoP, and WoD? And M+ is a ladder progression.

[Battlebeard]

I mean, that's how WoW works since forever. Honestly nowadays people are spoiled as fuck, back in ma' days you'd be happy if you got any sort of decent weapon at all.

I remember raiding SSC with a frikkin' blue weapon because I simply had terribad luck with drops and shit. I finally got a bloody epic spellpower weapon from guildies Kara run on my birthday months into frikkin' TBC.

And nowdays it's like "waah waah I did not get full bis setup one month into the patch - THIS IS SLAP IN THE FACE, Blizzurd!"

That's not about RNG or not. There can still be hard work without RNG.

Best example would be gear vendors and you get currency to buy the items from doing content. Like badges worked in WotLK etc. To get the best gear you gotta exchange "mythic tokens" but obviously not 1 token 1 gear, but maybe 5-10 depending on the item. Same for HC and Normal, but then the gear is not as good as the Mythic ones etc.

That way people wouldn't be spoiled as it would require quite alot of work to get gear, yet it would eliminate RNG from the equation.

[DemonDays]

He's saying being better or putting more effort into the game isn't rewarding. Having amazing luck is.

Remember when Ion sat in front of his pathetic little camera and said they were going to remove Titanforging and lessen RNG? Remember when he said iLevel should matter and the best gear should come from the hardest content?

Yeah. Ion is a pathological liar who's words consistently fail to match what he actually implements into the game.

The people who defend him on this forum are HILARIOUS.

This game is a fucking casino and the fanboys are addicted gamblers looking for their next dopamine hit.

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Much of that is result of them pushing the thing out of the gate too fast. If you think about it, corruption system is really massive, it's not some easymode "let's slap more ilvls lol" system and likely they did not have the time to flesh it out better in a mere patch delivery timeframe. It is a legitimate decent effort system there.

These "should not's" are legitimate, but the hotfixes also strike at this legitimate issue hard and fast and it's much better than it was on launch.

I'm sure after another round or two it will be pretty peachy and then we will have the benefits with not that much drawbacks.

And yes it will never be balanced and 100%, only a fool would expect this in WoW, I just hope it will be reasonably close.

Ah classic. Come in to defend the pathetic little dev team again have you?

A fucking monkey could deduce how broken those Corruptions were by reading the fucking tool tip. By running a single sim. 8.3 was on the PTR for fucking AGES.

[Revamp Man]

That's patently nonsense. No amount of "astronomically uncommon luck" is going to see an LFR raider geared anywhere near any mythic raider. It was always incredibly rare to see someone with even a single LFR item forging up to mythic level, let alone multiple pieces.

Just because something is theoretically possible doesn't mean there is a realistic probability of it happening. In this case, certainly not nearly enough probability that it's worth spending even a second of you life worrying about it. Getting eaten alive by a shark carried by a tornado into your home, for example, has a much greater probability of coming to pass than is anyone in WoW ever getting a full set of LFR gear forged to mythic levels.

The funny thing is that with corruption it is now probably possible for a lucky LFR raider with the right corruptions to beat a regular mythic raider. It's funny because you guys demanded that Blizzard get rid of that TF "cancer".

Titan forging was cancer because blizzard also has something implemented to protect retarded players from themselves since they look at all the bitching done by those retarded players and don’t think to look further into it that we had master Loot revoked so the only thing that we can do is trade the loot

But wait the retards complain that they are being pressured to trade their gear away so lizard fixed it again now you can only have master loop in a guild group but wait now the retards are complaining that the guilds are pressuring them so lizard takes it completely out of the game but wait they’re still being pressured to do it so blizzard decides to implement an item level restriction but wait that’s not good enough so they need to add an item level restriction along with adding a restriction to different weapon types

We still have those item level restrictions but now when I go into a farm kill and I have two heroic trinkets I can swap my spec to grab a different trinket for the healers and when it drops I can trade it instead of worrying about if it forges up five item levels and becomes untradable which is happened every raid tear this expansion until now and even happened with a best in slot fire mage neck piece dropping for me on my monk that I could not trade to the fire mage because it tian forge to the maximum level

Titan forging was cancer corruption is less cancer is it an unbalanced system yes but that is going to be the system every single time where you have multiple different possible abilities if it was all the same ability it would be boring boring gear in an RPG is retarded
Titan forging was cancer corruption is less cancer is it in unbalanced system yes but that is going to be the system every single time where you have multiple different possible abilities if it was all the same ability it would be boring boring gear in an RPG is retarded

People complain about infinite starts but don’t realize how infinite stars actually works which is why after that 50% Nerf yes it deals an insane amount of damage on single target fights but it is not the best for a lot of fights cents in Raid there aren’t that many single target fights

[Seranthor]

Remember when Ion sat in front of his pathetic little camera and said they were going to remove Titanforging and lessen RNG? Remember when he said iLevel should matter and the best gear should come from the hardest content?

Yeah. Ion is a pathological liar who's words consistently fail to match what he actually implements into the game.

The people who defend him on this forum are HILARIOUS.

This game is a fucking casino and the fanboys are addicted gamblers looking for their next dopamine hit.

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Ah classic. Come in to defend the pathetic little dev team again have you?

A fucking monkey could deduce how broken those Corruptions were by reading the fucking tool tip. By running a single sim. 8.3 was on the PTR for fucking AGES.

I'd say the folks still throwing their money at Blizzard are the ones 'defending' the content choices... not the folks that have stopped giving them any kind of currency. Which are you?

[ID811717]

2300 rio ppl dieing to season 1 mechanics in 17s/18s because there corruption carried them through 16s.
while there are good people who are struggling to do the 16s because they dont have the overpowered corruption to carry them through.
good players with overpowered corruption are already miiiiles ahead in rio.
played with a 2500 rio rdruid yday....top of fail meter.....rank 5 stars.....hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Hardly a problem. Rank 1 M+ players from previous seasons will still be Rank 1 this season. Method raiders with bad RNG won't get exiled into top 20-100 guilds due to having bad RNG.

And likewise I am not worried that "bad players" will take my raid spot or my M+ spot.

Being good at the game is so-so much more than just gear RNG. An infinite star proc will never replace an intimate, near-encyclopedic knowledge of dungeons mechanics, routes, and tactics.

Yes, some people will get benched due to bad RNG. That was always a risk in WoW. And I might lose 10-100 ranks to equally experienced M+ players in the short term. But that gear RNG will even out with time.

Gear comes and goes, but my ability to play the game stays throughout. I'm very confident in my ability. Regardless of gear.

[melodramocracy]

This game is a fucking casino and the fanboys are addicted gamblers looking for their next dopamine hit.

Lots of truth to this. What I really find interesting is how prevalent the token is becoming to raiding efforts. Granted, it's a drop in the bucket in the big picture, but W1 guilds dropping considerable amounts of actual money to compete..... you're just going to see more of this in the future, as inflation continues on its merry way in this game.

Blizzard doesn't really need to make the cash shop any more pervasive than it already is. They just need to keep the RNG roulette wheel spinning.

[Zyky]

So what you're trying to say is, because other people have good/bad RNG with corruption, I am no longer a good player?



What?

He's saying skill plays less of a point in being a good player because of corruption and idiotic simplistic specs, which is accurate.

[gobio]

So a scrub that has never set foot in a +5 can suddenly push +15?

And someone that used to do +15 blindfolded with one arm on the back is suddenly so bad that a +5 means wiping on the first pack?

Why select dumb example? Be realistic. Go, go now, ask a range dps what is the most important thing in RAID. Many will tell you movement.

A bad player and a good player can still dodge mechanics. The good one still try to maintain rotation, plan ahead. The bad one doesn't.
Having good luck on gear offset all that.

Take a lost on this one dude. holy shit.

[DemonDays]

Lots of truth to this. What I really find interesting is how prevalent the token is becoming to raiding efforts. Granted, it's a drop in the bucket in the big picture, but W1 guilds dropping considerable amounts of actual money to compete..... you're just going to see more of this in the future, as inflation continues on its merry way in this game.

Blizzard doesn't really need to make the cash shop any more pervasive than it already is. They just need to keep the RNG roulette wheel spinning.

The game is already indirectly pay2win. You can purchase gold for real money and then you can use that gold to select the best guild on your server and get a carry through the hardest content in the game.

You then get the best, most prestigious mounts and gear. Pay2Win.

I think Limit reportedly spent 45k worth of gold. They owe a considerable amount to one of those gold farming guilds that do loans.

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...t_40000_after/

Casino Gaming.

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Why select dumb example? Be realistic. Go, go now, ask a range dps what is the most important thing in RAID. Many will tell you movement.

A bad player and a good player can still dodge mechanics. The good one still try to maintain rotation, plan ahead. The bad one doesn't.
Having good luck on gear offset all that.

Take a lost on this one dude. holy shit.

So much of your damage these days comes from random, uncontrollable procs that yes - a bad player can get carried by gear.

Case in point - Infinite Stars before the nerf. Shit was doing 20-30% of peoples damage. You don't have to manage a rotation either - it just fires off by itself.

[Daymanmb]

as bitter as i am about my luck this is hilarious, and to think the people with this gear will say they are skilled....while standing in barrel smash on 2nd boss fh to do extra dips.

Welcome to many peoples Legion experience with legendarys.

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If so, why were there population declines in Cataclysm, MoP, and WoD?

Are you trying to suggest that if Cata, MoP and WoD had Legion/BfA systems, there wouldnt have been sub losses?

[oplawlz]

That's always been the case with wow. It's just been more or less obvious at different times.

Lets take classic as an example.

Two warriors duel, ones been lucky to get asscandi the other hasn't. Asscandi war slaps the other in a few shots, who's the better player? Fuck knows, gear has always counted for more than skill (except during templates in legion but yall hated that)

Only thing that's ever really changed is the number of avenues to powerful gear and time taken to obtain it.

Templates were a great idea poorly implemented. Gotta let people have some agency over their characters in an rpg.

To your other point the discrepancies are both greater and more difficult to compensate for with the current loot fiesta that is retail wow.