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  1. #201
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    How can anyone defend the system.

    RNG is ALWAYS bad, always has been and always will be!


    Anything that adds luck into the equation is god awful, and this system defenitly does.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    Not sure why you spun this into a TFing debate when they've already said that WoW would be 'without TF/WF' moving forward. Corruption was the first attempt at an alternate system and even that isn't going to appear beyond this patch.

    So yeah, they already fixed that problem. No idea what (if anything) they're replacing it with in SL, but they've directly said that TF/WF is not coming back.
    Well, I haven't seen that information. Corruption being an alternative doesn't sound all that much better if you get the wrong thing. Then you're item isn't good anyway unless they removed secondary stats completely since not hitting a threshold on gear (haste cap/crit cap/etc) because the item that dropped doesn't have it makes it a dead item as well. Otherwise, make it so that no matter what primary stats are always your best stat. None of this "every item needs crit even if it's a lower item" like on a cat druid. It wouldn't be a problem if personal loot didn't make it difficult to trade items that aren't appealing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    As I said, "No amount of "astronomically uncommon luck" is going to see an LFR raider geared anywhere near any mythic raider". No the gear you can realistically get from LFR isn't comparable at all. Mythic gear is 45 ilevels above LFR gear. Forging 9 times (or 7 times with a socket) to make it comparable to mythic gear is incredibly rare. Gear is not out of control, because your concept of what actually happens in practice is massively out of sync with reality. If you do every wing of LFR over the entire course of a raid and see 2-3 "comparable to mythic" gear drops, it pretty much proves my point. Across a group of mythic of raiders over the entire course of a raid (let's say 20 weeks, 10 bosses), you're going to see around 10 000 gear drops. That is not comparable by any means. Firstly, you're exaggerating the ease with which top end Mythic dungeons are cleared. Generally speaking, the people who get top gear from Mythic+ are the same people clearing mythic raids. Furthermore, M+ drops 1 guaranteed good item a week which cannot be traded or use a coin roll. So Mythic raiders are going be getting more gear quicker. The one thing where M+ has always had an edge is that you had a realistic chance (not a great chance though) of getting a strong enough TF proc to make a mythic raid comparable item for every dungeon you complete. What this means is that if a player was willing to run hundreds of high end M+ every week, yes they were going to have Mythic raid gear. Now maybe you think that's trivial. In truth though it's a significant effort barrier, so the reward is probably warranted. No offense, but it really sounds as though your struggles in retail emanated from the fact that you had no ability to regulate your play, combined with a poor grasp of how probabilities translated into the real world. Which resulted in you expending massive amounts of effort into unnecessary grinds borne of a desire to keep up with a massively distorted perception of how well geared everyone else was.

    I am glad to hear that your Classic experience is working out for you though
    Again, you're ignoring how I said that they can get comparable gear. Comparable gear also adds in information like the correct Corruption, sockets, or secondary stats. When I stopped playing, I had a full 410+ set of gear on my druid for all 4 specs. If an item had a socket, but wrong stats it could be better or worse than my highest item level piece (Mythic or +10 dungeon). For example, cat form required you to have Critical Strike on every slot and every available socket. If a haste/verse item 10-15 item levels higher dropped than the item with Critical Strike on it, it was not usable in cat form to be optimal.

    Either you've never been a Mythic raider or you don't understand the concept of having optimal gear. If you're trying to guarantee yourself a spot in a roster, you need to be playing at your best while wearing the best gear. If you keep getting really bad RNG luck, you'll be sat. Plain and simple. That's how Mythic raiding works at a high level.

    If one person gets a Titanforged item with a socket (which adds ~15 item levels) even it going up to the base Heroic item level puts it in comparable terms to a Mythic drop. Add on this system of Corruption and having the right bonus? Now you're at or better than a Mythic item that dropped and didn't roll correctly.

    You don't even have to complete a M+ dungeon on time to get the base item level that is exactly the base for a Mythic raid bonus chest at the beginning of the week. You literally just have to clear the place. I am not talking about "top end M+" either. The ones that are running +25s and whatever. Those people are doing that for the challenge at that point, not the gear since you can't go past the item level threshold even if you somehow cleared a +40.

    Not sure how you assume I can't regulate my play time. I could play 40+ hours a week if I wanted every week. However, that isn't something I find as enjoyable anymore. It isn't massively distorted if you're playing at the highest level. If you've never done it, you should really stop acting like you know it. It's not even about how geared someone else is btw, it's I could farm a Mythic raid for a month and not get my drop and the other option is to spam M+ until something equivalent drops to keep up. As I've stated, I don't want to have to play 24/7 to stay relevant. M+ should have the same rules as a raid has, you can clear it once up to a set default number and get piece of gear. Running each dungeon has a chance, but it should remain what it was designed to be: an alternative way to gear. Not the best way to gear.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by odamienskii View Post
    It really doesnt matter how good you are anymore.
    Well it does, because People that are good players that are lucky will still do much better than bad players that are lucky.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldfrostzero View Post
    He's saying being better or putting more effort into the game isn't rewarding. Having amazing luck is.
    thats the correct translation. and the reason why me and many ppl that play this game since 2005 (or any other long period) start more and more to piss on it. RNG in drops on a loot table? fine. rng over rng over rng in every fukin game aspect so you go like „i just hang around in this game until rngesus choose me“ is NOT fun in a mmorpg.

    if i wanna play casino games i go to casinos. simple as that.
    Last edited by Niwes; Today at 12:53 PM.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    thats the correct translation. and the reason why me and many ppl that play this game since 2005 (or any other long period) start more and more to piss on it. RNG in drops on a loot table? fine. rng over rng over rng in every fukin game aspect so you go like „i just hang around in this game until rngesus choose me“ is NOT fun in a mmorpg.

    if i wanna play casino games i go to casinos. simple as that.
    Right there beside you brother. This is why I went to Classic. I get my gear from doing the content and I'm done for the week. Don't need to spend every waking moment in a dungeon or out in the world. I can do those things if I want to, or I can do something else. I won't fall so far behind I get benched and if something drops, I don't have to pray to the RNG gods that it forges, sockets, AND has the right Corruption.

  6. #206
    What you are saying rio score isn't indicative of skill? woah calm down

    I agree that corruptions don't really work at all. Titanforging however, no matter how much you dislike it, offers near infinite amount of gear progression with diminishing returns. Less lucky you are the more your effort counts. The curve on item level growth is very even amongs the players putting a lot of effort into m+ and mythic raids. Sure if you only do your weekly raids and one m+ you might be the outlier. The differences between players who only do raids and one m+ a week are huge. However there is a large amount of people who either raid mythic for a long time (cause of slower progression) and for them the gear progression being always possible is great, same with people who enjoy grinding m+ trying to get higher.

    At no point in this expansion have you needed x item to titanforge by y amount to beat any content. Even with corruptions the only boss that actually is tuned to need the absolute best (for few more weeks) is n'zoth. It's crazy how this "skill doesn't matter titanforging rng lol" keeps being a meme while the same guilds and same players keep being the best at what they do.

    They are happy with the amount of power you are gaining from week to week. Removal of these systems like titanforging would mean we'd go back to 1-2 pieces of loot dropping per raid boss and less in dungeons / world quests etc. You'd still be susceptible to bad rng in the form of "didn't get my deathbringer's will again this week". It's actually far more difficult to not have enough gear right now. Getting bis gear now is just impossible but hey let's be real, that's not really the reason you are behind on meters is it

  7. #207
    Tf/Wf is coming back without a doubt, it’s way better than corruption and actually good for the health of this game. It gives people a reason to do lower difficulty leveled content than they would as there’s a chance they get something good. It’s only a problem to man children who can’t accept that someone has 1 or 2 pieces equal ilvl from mythic raid even though they both pay the same 15/month. With any self control, it is nothing but a boon to the game and wow has been much better since TF has been introduced

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldfrostzero View Post
    Right there beside you brother. This is why I went to Classic. I get my gear from doing the content and I'm done for the week. Don't need to spend every waking moment in a dungeon or out in the world. I can do those things if I want to, or I can do something else. I won't fall so far behind I get benched and if something drops, I don't have to pray to the RNG gods that it forges, sockets, AND has the right Corruption.
    Why even say shit like “I don’t have to spend every waking in a dungeon... blah blah” when everyone knows that isn’t true in current wow or the 15 year old version you play now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    Well it does, because People that are good players that are lucky will still do much better than bad players that are lucky.
    Correct. Unfortunately, the comments like the one you quoted tend to come from said bad players who have convinced themselves they are good and a piece of corrupted gear is what’s holding them back.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldfrostzero View Post
    Again, you're ignoring how I said that they can get comparable gear. Comparable gear also adds in information like the correct Corruption, sockets, or secondary stats.
    I am not ignoring it. I am refuting it.

    Your assertion, quite plainly, was that an LFR raider "with astronomically uncommon luck is going to have comparable gear" to a mythic raider.

    You can go on for as long as you like about sockets and optimal secondary stats, and how, in theory, it's possible to get a piece or two of comparable gear, it's not going to change the plain and simple fact that a mythic raider is going to have significantly better gear, reflected in actual performance, than even the luckiest LFR raider.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldfrostzero View Post
    Either you've never been a Mythic raider or you don't understand the concept of having optimal gear.
    If you want to try arguing from a position of supposed authority then try to understand this: This is a discussion about stats, probabilities and maths, of which you very clearly have very little understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldfrostzero View Post
    If you're trying to guarantee yourself a spot in a roster, you need to be playing at your best while wearing the best gear. If you keep getting really bad RNG luck, you'll be sat. Plain and simple. That's how Mythic raiding works at a high level.
    And yet if you look at the top teams in the world they have a pretty consistent line-up. And while it is obviously true that the players who get the best luck in terms of gearing are going to be at an advantage when it comes to deciding who gets benched, this has always been the case in WoW. Furthermore, "luck" isn't really the primary determinant of who gets the best gear in this game. Effort and hard work are far more significant factors.

    Think of it like this (stats basics): If you and your buddy are rolling 2d6, there is a fairly good chance that one of you will roll significantly better than the other. But if you're both rolling 100d6, the odds of there being a substantial difference are negligible. Because that is how statistics work.


    Quote Originally Posted by Coldfrostzero View Post
    Not sure how you assume I can't regulate my play time.
    "No grinding out artifact power for days on end to keep up"

    Also, I didn't say you couldn't regulate your play time. I said something quite different which essentially boils down to that you feel the need to expend a lot more time and effort on grinding shit than is actually required because you have a poor understanding of the maths behind those grinds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldfrostzero View Post
    I could play 40+ hours a week if I wanted every week. However, that isn't something I find as enjoyable anymore. It isn't massively distorted if you're playing at the highest level. If you've never done it, you should really stop acting like you know it. It's not even about how geared someone else is btw, it's I could farm a Mythic raid for a month and not get my drop and the other option is to spam M+ until something equivalent drops to keep up. As I've stated, I don't want to have to play 24/7 to stay relevant. M+ should have the same rules as a raid has, you can clear it once up to a set default number and get piece of gear. Running each dungeon has a chance, but it should remain what it was designed to be: an alternative way to gear. Not the best way to gear.
    The requirements the game imposes on players who want to raid mythic are substatially lower than that though. What you're complaining about is the requirements imposed by other raiders, borne not of what is required to beat the content, but what is required to beat other teams (at beating the content).

    Sorry to be so blunt about it, but if you want to be in the top 0.1% of players, expect to put in the same effort as the top 0.1% of players. This is not caused by Titanforging or AP or Essences or chain running M+ or doing split runs or any other system in WoW. It's caused by your desire to be better than someone else, and their desire to be better than you. That is what pushes you to the limit.

    But here's the thing: No one is forcing you to be in the top 0.1% of players. Not the game, not its systems, not Blizzard. It's you. All you.



    Also, it's funny how you've tried to steer the argument towards how you can get comparable to raid gear from M+ when that wasn't even something I ever tried disputing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldfrostzero View Post
    Right there beside you brother. This is why I went to Classic. I get my gear from doing the content and I'm done for the week. Don't need to spend every waking moment in a dungeon or out in the world. I can do those things if I want to, or I can do something else. I won't fall so far behind I get benched and if something drops, I don't have to pray to the RNG gods that it forges, sockets, AND has the right Corruption.
    Until the group you're running with decides they're more hardcore than the effort you're prepared to put in....which is the actual issue you had in retail.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu fhtagn View Post
    What you are saying rio score isn't indicative of skill? woah calm down

    I agree that corruptions don't really work at all. Titanforging however, no matter how much you dislike it, offers near infinite amount of gear progression with diminishing returns. Less lucky you are the more your effort counts. The curve on item level growth is very even amongs the players putting a lot of effort into m+ and mythic raids. Sure if you only do your weekly raids and one m+ you might be the outlier. The differences between players who only do raids and one m+ a week are huge. However there is a large amount of people who either raid mythic for a long time (cause of slower progression) and for them the gear progression being always possible is great, same with people who enjoy grinding m+ trying to get higher.

    At no point in this expansion have you needed x item to titanforge by y amount to beat any content. Even with corruptions the only boss that actually is tuned to need the absolute best (for few more weeks) is n'zoth. It's crazy how this "skill doesn't matter titanforging rng lol" keeps being a meme while the same guilds and same players keep being the best at what they do.

    They are happy with the amount of power you are gaining from week to week. Removal of these systems like titanforging would mean we'd go back to 1-2 pieces of loot dropping per raid boss and less in dungeons / world quests etc. You'd still be susceptible to bad rng in the form of "didn't get my deathbringer's will again this week". It's actually far more difficult to not have enough gear right now. Getting bis gear now is just impossible but hey let's be real, that's not really the reason you are behind on meters is it
    If only everyone here was able to think with the same degree of clarity. Sadly, I suspect that they're more concerned with being heard than ensuring they are correct.

  10. #210
    Bloodsail Admiral Zephire's Avatar
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    I like corruptions. Not the most balansed, not the best tuned and very frustrating but the concept is the best gear-thing so far. Would be shit to go back to TF or static ilvl with nothing else after this.

    Disclaimer: in MY opinion.

    OT:
    Must suck for hard pushers and top enders but it's pretty fun for us in the middle of the pack
    Well met!

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Zexaniro View Post
    this is a blatant lie lmfao

    mythic tier raid gear is above the max loot you can get from mythic+
    You are being disingenuous and dishonest. We both know if you do mythic+ weekly, your weekly chest will titanforge up to mythic raid level.

    Then there’s heroic and world boss drops forging and here’s the problem.

    Not only should the ilvls between difficulties grow tremendously, but each harder version needs to add new bosses that are only on that mode with unique gear. You want mythic raid bosses? They don’t show up in heroic

    But instead we have this awful system of wow communism where we all have to be equal or within a tiny variation of one another. And that’s bad. An mmorpg is better when it has haves and have nots

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    M+ was a good addition for legion because they tempered it to always be one ring below mythic raiding

    Now, you can get mythic raid geared without stepping foot in a mythic raid. It belittles they entire process and makes it seasonal and pointless

    Classic may be easier but my gear is infinitely more valuable than in retail
    So what you're saying is Blizzard should just ignore what a large chunk of players want then?

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Eosia View Post
    So what you're saying is Blizzard should just ignore what a large chunk of players want then?
    The game was better, higher rated, and far more populated when it was built on ladder progression and haves and have nots

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Mardux View Post
    Why even say shit like “I don’t have to spend every waking in a dungeon... blah blah” when everyone knows that isn’t true in current wow or the 15 year old version you play now.
    To keep up on gear and artifact power, with no essential hard cap, you do. Blizzard can't win in this situation tbf. If they put a hard limit on the amount of something you can earn, you feel obligated to hit that cap every week and if you fall behind, you're screwed.

    With no cap, you can grind endlessly and have to, to stay ahead of the pack. Mythic guilds don't look kindly on those who aren't in the top tier of the grind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    I am not ignoring it. I am refuting it.

    Your assertion, quite plainly, was that an LFR raider "with astronomically uncommon luck is going to have comparable gear" to a mythic raider.

    You can go on for as long as you like about sockets and optimal secondary stats, and how, in theory, it's possible to get a piece or two of comparable gear, it's not going to change the plain and simple fact that a mythic raider is going to have significantly better gear, reflected in actual performance, than even the luckiest LFR raider.

    If you want to try arguing from a position of supposed authority then try to understand this: This is a discussion about stats, probabilities and maths, of which you very clearly have very little understanding.

    And yet if you look at the top teams in the world they have a pretty consistent line-up. And while it is obviously true that the players who get the best luck in terms of gearing are going to be at an advantage when it comes to deciding who gets benched, this has always been the case in WoW. Furthermore, "luck" isn't really the primary determinant of who gets the best gear in this game. Effort and hard work are far more significant factors.

    Think of it like this (stats basics): If you and your buddy are rolling 2d6, there is a fairly good chance that one of you will roll significantly better than the other. But if you're both rolling 100d6, the odds of there being a substantial difference are negligible. Because that is how statistics work.

    "No grinding out artifact power for days on end to keep up"

    Also, I didn't say you couldn't regulate your play time. I said something quite different which essentially boils down to that you feel the need to expend a lot more time and effort on grinding shit than is actually required because you have a poor understanding of the maths behind those grinds.

    The requirements the game imposes on players who want to raid mythic are substatially lower than that though. What you're complaining about is the requirements imposed by other raiders, borne not of what is required to beat the content, but what is required to beat other teams (at beating the content).

    Sorry to be so blunt about it, but if you want to be in the top 0.1% of players, expect to put in the same effort as the top 0.1% of players. This is not caused by Titanforging or AP or Essences or chain running M+ or doing split runs or any other system in WoW. It's caused by your desire to be better than someone else, and their desire to be better than you. That is what pushes you to the limit.

    But here's the thing: No one is forcing you to be in the top 0.1% of players. Not the game, not its systems, not Blizzard. It's you. All you.

    Also, it's funny how you've tried to steer the argument towards how you can get comparable to raid gear from M+ when that wasn't even something I ever tried disputing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Until the group you're running with decides they're more hardcore than the effort you're prepared to put in....which is the actual issue you had in retail.
    I never once said they wouldn't have better gear. I said they would have comparable gear without the same level of commitment. Your argument about math doesn't go far when you can roll the dice as many times as you like. If you roll 100 times versus someone rolling once a week (Mythic commitment versus LFR commitment) you're going to come up with a bigger number more often obviously. The difference is, when the once a week roll is better than rolling 100 times a week. It's insanely stupid that someone rolling once a week can get an item as good as someone rolling 100 times a week, putting in time and effort. Even worse that those big crunchy crit rolls can come from world quests. Ever have a trinket from a World Quest be your BIS, but it didn't titanforge again so it's useless? Yet, the guy who logs in once a month, decides to do the quest and hits the lottery. There's a problem there that you're not understanding.

    Bosses are beaten in two ways: by knowing the strategy and your level of gear in raids. If you don't have the gear to survive the AOE attack, heal the group/tank, survive a massive hit as a tank, or DPS to beat an enrage timer...not even a perfect strategy can beat the boss. Look at Jaina, the first kill was mathematically figured out to how much DPS every single person had to be pulling to kill her. Can't do that in subpar gear.

    Have you ever killed a boss on Mythic? Hell, even Heroic when it first comes out? Blizzard has gotten only slightly better with making the first couple of bosses in a raid weaker than the final boss in the previous difficulty, but sometimes that's just not true either. Look at how hard Heroic Kil'jaeden was for a lot of guilds. Sorry if you don't think gear plays an important role in killing a boss. You're just wrong.

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