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  1. #81
    It never mattered how good you were in this game...........

    This game has always been about GEAR! Blizzard very clearly states it. Look what happened in pvp. They tried to use templates to make pvp balanced and competatively honest- but everyone cried because they just couldn't outgear and stomp people everyone! No one cared who was actually better or more skilled- they just cared about the gear!

    Even the "pinnacle" of this game- Raids are more about: finding reliable people that work well together and using the right strats then it is about skill or ability.

    When did anyone ever get the crazy notion that player skill mattered at all in this game? You are confusing an mmo with competitive type games- they are different genres.

    Why do you think Blizzard's E sports never really takes off like they always think it will? This game was never about skill- even in Vanilla. Just look at how fast people cleared those raids in classic- how can you possibly argue that it took any skill at all to beat them? Its all about the gear and planning- the groups that did it even explained that in their videos........

    The other reason it never really mattered was that it's just a video game- so it doesn't really matter. Its for fun.

  2. #82
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mhyroth View Post
    At the time of Limits N'zoth kill Method was the best geared one and Limit came in 2nd.
    Not that it has anything to do with the topic at hand but wanted to correct this.
    They also used lower Ilvl gear with the top Corruption.
    Quote Originally Posted by chronia View Post
    How is "best geared" defined though, i hope not by looking at ilvl, becaue due to corruption ilvl basicly says nothing. For example Limit and Method spend 100's of millions of gold on lower ilvl BoE's with the "right" corruptions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    How did you gauge best? When did you take that measurement/sample? Did you sim each of their characters?
    Yep, I did.^^

    Nah, ofc not. Actually "gear" was never a topic matter in the discussion of the WF race.

    I don't think ppl brought it up at all. What was brought up (other than Blizzard favouritism or exploits) was "lol, Method's dps sucks" - which is interesting if you guys are right that both guilds spend millions, buying the best gear with the right corruption - because then...skill / teamwork / dedication etc matters after all?

    I don't disagree that there is RNG favoring ppl with an OP corruption btw. It just gets blown out of proportion TBH

  3. #83
    To be fair it never really mattered.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Throwme View Post
    So a scrub that has never set foot in a +5 can suddenly push +15?

    And someone that used to do +15 blindfolded with one arm on the back is suddenly so bad that a +5 means wiping on the first pack?
    Quit being dense. He's saying an average skilled player who does content (say, someone who is 70th percentile for reactiontime/movement/APMs, etc... whatever metrics you want to determine the physical skill of a player) will beat someone who is 90th percentile if the avg player gets lucky and the skilled player is unlucky.

    The variation on gear acquired now-a-days is HUGE when comparing two people who have done relatively the same content, and that gear has more power influence than ever, meaning the range of performance between two people with the same ilvl is also HUGE.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    To be fair it never really mattered.
    Incorrect, but thanks for playing. In the past, it certainly had a higher impact than it does now.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by odamienskii View Post
    at the highest end of the scale you will be 20k dps below the next guy, no matter how good you are if they have bis corruption and you have worst......unlucky! that can cost keys
    Cut the BS really.

    You won't be 20k DPS below next guy because of corruptions, that's just nonsense. If you had half a clue, you'd realize that what matters is effect per corruption and overall after EV got nerfed and Void Ritual got buffed (and is actually decent now) things are pretty close now.

    Sure Stars is still best ST and TD is great in AoE, but it's not 20k DPS difference between that and average options.

    ---

    There was legitimate bullshit going on at launch of the patch, but right now after the adjustments? There is like maybe 1-2 outliers that don't really stick out that much, certainly not the magnitude being hyperboled here.

    I'd say Twilight Devastation is probably the only big bad left and it seems it's on Blizz radar anyway.

  6. #86
    Ah yes, give the world 20000 normal guild perfect gear and perfect corruptions and watch them kill Mythic N'zoth.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Alydael View Post
    It never mattered how good you were in this game...........
    Wrong.

    This game has always been about GEAR! Blizzard very clearly states it.
    This game has always been about staying on the tread mill and getting the best gear you could, but in the past (pre-legion), the variability of the impact gear had of various ilvls wasn't nearly as large as it is now. Two people clearing the same content could relatively reasonably expect to have the same gear, and thus skill would be the determining factor for performance (assuming same spec).

    Look what happened in pvp. They tried to use templates to make pvp balanced and competatively honest- but everyone cried because they just couldn't outgear and stomp people everyone! No one cared who was actually better or more skilled- they just cared about the gear!
    Mischaracterization at it's finest. People weren't mad at templates and not being able to out-gear people. They were mad that 1) gear STILL ABSOLUTELY had an impact and 2) Even with the easy tuning knobs of templates, balance was still horrendous and oversaturated with fotm specs and comps. They should have been tuning that shit weekly. They failed at utilizing the tool properly.

    Even the "pinnacle" of this game- Raids are more about: finding reliable people that work well together and using the right strats then it is about skill or ability.
    And again, that's easy enough to do. So what does the game come down to AFTER you reach that relatively low bar? What was left to optimize? Ah. Right. Personal performance and skill.

    When did anyone ever get the crazy notion that player skill mattered at all in this game? You are confusing an mmo with competitive type games- they are different genres.
    The entire reason raiding was as long lived and as popular as it is in wow is because of the unique competitive cooperation it has. People love to epeen stroke. Just downing a boss in a group is boring, and no one likes to be the bitch getting carried (well.. maybe they do?).

    The other reason it never really mattered was that it's just a video game- so it doesn't really matter. Its for fun.
    Literally every sport in the history of ever. What matters to people and how much it matters isn't for you to say. "But sports make so much money!" yeah, and when "kick a ball with your firends" started back in like 12097963bc, did it make tons of money then? No? It took Time? A SHIT ton of time? Wow. Who would have thought.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    hyperboled here.
    I don't know what the difference is, but I can definitely say even 5k dps is hugely meaningful when the overall dps a person has on a fight is 50k. 10% variance is still way too much for a dumb special effect that is randomly acquired from non-static, RNG layered loot. "Did it drop" was good enough in the past, and it would allow stupid stuff like this to be much less meaningful, since basically everyone and their brother would get it at some point during a raid tier if they were full-clearing that raid. Now? Not so much.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    I don't know what the difference is, but I can definitely say even 5k dps is hugely meaningful when the overall dps a person has on a fight is 50k. 10% variance is still way too much for a dumb special effect that is randomly acquired from non-static, RNG layered loot. "Did it drop" was good enough in the past, and it would allow stupid stuff like this to be much less meaningful, since basically everyone and their brother would get it at some point during a raid tier if they were full-clearing that raid. Now? Not so much.
    The thing is, it's not 10% variance at the moment. EVEN taking the only last big bad - Twilight Devastation - yes it sure looks impressive there on meters, but it's not a free effect, as in the guy who does not have it will simply have other corruption items that are not 0 DPS, such as various stat corruptions for example that don't even appear on meters themselves.

    That's the main point people seem to keep missing. EVEN Twilight Devastation is not some free 12% or how much it does during the run, when you pit it against other corruptions at same level in M+ it will be like maybe 5% free damage and pure RNG at that too.

    People really need to wake up and realize damage/corruption is the name of the game not just how pretty shit looks in Details.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Hunter View Post
    Isn't it?

    So non of those sub 1% op as fuck items in classic arn't basicly just coruption given by a different form of rng?

    I'll be sure to rember that when some scrub melts me with hand of rag or thuderfury or one of the god broken weapons procs and trinkets.
    i've killed a warrior decked out in mc gear wearing only lvl 1 daggers in classic... at lvl 58...

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    People really need to wake up and realize damage/corruption is the name of the game not just how pretty shit looks in Details.
    I'm not talking about how much of the total dps a specific effect contributes on someone's meters in a vacuum. It wasn't in this thread, but the level of corruption and type of corruption bot played a huge part in the comparison I made before.

    With corruption you

    1) have to get the right effect
    2) have to get the highest amount
    3) have to have a raid group capable of supporting your dumb levels of corruption

    If you get that trifecta, skill will not save whoever it is competing with you. The difference was __that__ much. If that's changed, cool, but I doubt it has.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Raspberry Lemon View Post
    i've killed a warrior decked out in mc gear wearing only lvl 1 daggers in classic... at lvl 58...
    Back when I played Vanilla and ended with full Naxx decked paladin, I could literally kill everyone in one swing if my shit procced right. I remember these silly Ironforge duels - it was basically all about landing one lucky Auto Attack with SoC proc against about 85% of the populace.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    I'm not talking about how much of the total dps a specific effect contributes on someone's meters in a vacuum. It wasn't in this thread, but the level of corruption and type of corruption bot played a huge part in the comparison I made before.

    With corruption you

    1) have to get the right effect
    2) have to get the highest amount
    3) have to have a raid group capable of supporting your dumb levels of corruption

    If you get that trifecta, skill will not save whoever it is competing with you. The difference was __that__ much. If that's changed, cool, but I doubt it has.
    See that's the point you are missing, because no - you really don't have to do any of that (1), (2) and (3).

    Because if you don't get the "right" effect - as long as it's not avoidant or leech - the effect is already going to be worthwhile and you don't need to get it at "highest amount" either, because it's completely fine to have a mix of various corruptions at various levels to fill your cap.

    And no, you don't need to be a retard or a dick and pack bajillion corruption in hopes of winging it and healers picking up your slack.


    I mean heck - you are talking about raids... so what's the right corruption there? Be a dear - let me know.

    Because it's certainly not TD and not really Stars for most of the fights either. For me - something like Expedient/Racing is a best choice (to some extent), but then I have 4 more corruptions that are pretty close to that too, so eh???

    No matter how much you want to deny it - DPS/Corruption ratio IS a thing - it's what balances the whole thing and it does ok at that in general after the fixes. There are still some rough spots, but it's really not that horrible as people make it out to be.
    Last edited by Gaidax; 2020-02-14 at 10:24 PM.

  12. #92
    Immortal Kithelle's Avatar
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    Kinda always been like that, I'm pretty sure I never got a single BiS Legiondary...but I was good at getting the really bad ones! Like the lava lash bracers on my Shaman.
    Hope, the greatest power of all!

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  13. #93
    Are you trying to tell me corruption gear isn't a highly skill-based gameplay system?

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Actually WHAT he said is "It really doesnt matter how good you are anymore, if your unlucky your shit, if your lucky your op."

    Everything else is putting words into his mouth or interpreting as we like. There is nothing about equally skilled players. It literally is "It really doesnt matter how good you are anymore"
    Huh, I guess my week one Purple parses with only R1 Void Ritual beating people in my raid who had R3 Stars is just me winning the RNG lottery eh?
    Damn, if only skill out-weighted bad use of corruption over the course of multiple fights.
    /s
    This thread has been hilarious. I've read logs of players with a total of R5 stars who green parse on Heroic Maut with an up time of over 95%.
    Corruption def > actually being good at your core mechanics.
    This is why we can't have nice things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boomzy View Post
    As if the horde faction imbalance could be worse now we have floofy foxes
    Quote Originally Posted by Dossou View Post
    and he's got a fat ass
    Quote Originally Posted by bmjclark View Post
    This thread is a nice reminder that Blizzard can do something nice and still get absolutely shit on for it.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Cut the BS really.

    You won't be 20k DPS below next guy because of corruptions, that's just nonsense. If you had half a clue, you'd realize that what matters is effect per corruption and overall after EV got nerfed and Void Ritual got buffed (and is actually decent now) things are pretty close now.

    Sure Stars is still best ST and TD is great in AoE, but it's not 20k DPS difference between that and average options.

    ---

    There was legitimate bullshit going on at launch of the patch, but right now after the adjustments? There is like maybe 1-2 outliers that don't really stick out that much, certainly not the magnitude being hyperboled here.

    I'd say Twilight Devastation is probably the only big bad left and it seems it's on Blizz radar anyway.
    And even then TD is just OP in M+ and a few fights, like Hivemind and Vexiona, where people pad meters with it. It's hardly a determining factor unless you're literally going for world first, and well, too late for that. To say nothing of the fact that while Stars looks good on sims, most fights in Ny'alotha feature adds and target switching which greatly diminishes its value.

    What happens is that people look at the raw damage of Infinite Stars or TD and go "OMG it did 10-15% of their damage! OPAF!!!" without considering that other Corruption effects might also give you a big damage boost without this being easily reflected in Details. Plus, the nature of corruption is that it is both take and give of course. One piece won't fuck you up too much, but things can get complicated as soon as you go over 40.

    Still, I wouldn't mind both these effects getting nerfed to no longer being among the best, I'm not a fan of passive procs being so high on the damage list. Essences were better given that they are actually activated abilities.

  16. #96
    It's no worse than it was in Legion when it comes to r.io not being a good indicator of skill. Any jackass can get to 2k or even 2.5k rating without being a great player. Honestly I'd pay more attention to their number of runs and how many were successful than just the quick glimpse of the score itself. Now it's corruption but in early BFA and Legion you had people with insanely TF'd gear getting into higher keys = higher score and so on without being as good as you would think.

  17. #97
    Merely a Setback Queen of Hamsters's Avatar
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    This sounds exactly like the kind of complaining that you'd see in every expansion when X players lost on either DPS meters, or in PVP, to some other player. I distinctly recall the arguments surrounding who got Shadowmourne first in the guild. One paladin got the green light to get it, before the other. The other paladin felt raw and said "now he's going to outdps me on every fight!!"... Only, the paladin getting the green light, was already the better player.

    Yes, Corruption is shit. Yes, Titanforging is shit. But if you're an actually skilled player, why so fragile? In the end, some people will always be lucky, but a bad player won't exactly suddenly know to optimize their play around the item they got lucky with.
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  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by DazManianDevil View Post
    Huh, I guess my week one Purple parses with only R1 Void Ritual beating people in my raid who had R3 Stars is just me winning the RNG lottery eh?
    Damn, if only skill out-weighted bad use of corruption over the course of multiple fights.
    /s
    This thread has been hilarious. I've read logs of players with a total of R5 stars who green parse on Heroic Maut with an up time of over 95%.
    Corruption def > actually being good at your core mechanics.
    This is why we can't have nice things.
    You're missing the point. Of course there's hyperbole in this thread, but the whole point isn't that RNG is literally all that matters and you'll suddenly get WF kills because of RNG - it's that the spread between RNG and skill is smaller than it has ever been. Top-skilled players will, on average, still do better than low-skilled players, but there is a considerable overlap in the skill curve where more skill does not beat out more RNG, and the area of that overlap is larger than it should be.

    To illustrate: let's say skill goes from 1 to 100. Used to be that RNG adds a little bit on top, so someone with, say, skill 50 and RNG 10 would be like someone with skill 60. That still leaves people of skill 61-100 above them easily. But now you have someone with skill 50 and RNG 30, and all of a sudden the skill 61-79 which used to beat those people get left behind in the dust through no fault of their own - even though the skill 81-100 people are better STILL. And that will stay true even if the skill 60 person gets an RNG 10 or 15 item. Number for illustrative purposes only, of course.

  19. #99
    I am Murloc! dacoolist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Are you trying to tell me corruption gear isn't a highly skill-based gameplay system?
    I'm going to step in here for a minute.. So

    1) To be clear: I'm probably the worst player in WoW

    2) This mof'ca is 1200 MMR - MY GRANDMA in a WHEELCHAIR has a higher mmr than this dood..

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Hunter View Post
    Yea, like I said, this games never been about skill in pvp, only gear. It's just been more and less obvious at different times.

    Wow has never been a game you play to show off skill. It's an mmo-rpg with some competitive elements intended for entertainment, not a competitive e-sport game based on fair play.

    And in some respects its been a detriment to the enjoyment of the game at its core that design has tried to half way cater to the competitive side.
    Well, PVP is a different beast. The only place skill matters is on the tournament servers or Esports events where everyone is using the exact same gear. Otherwise it's all just screwing around, and gear absolutely overpowers all other considerations.

    However, I will say that in PVE, skill does matter in regards to upper-level content, such as high keys in M+ or Mythic raiding. Otherwise, if skill didn't matter, then everyone would be doing that. And they clearly aren't. Doing your rotation perfectly, positioning correctly, and executing fight mechanics are very important. OP gear like Infinite Stars absolutely helps. When DPS can do 20-40% more damage because of a single trait....that's kind of broken and bad design. It takes away any real option for your build and boils it down to a single stat, which is shallow and weak. Because of the nature of RNG drops, it also means that a person's performance in a raid relies even less on skill, less on build, less on procs.....it's all just a handful of lucky drops.

    Granted, getting that one drop your character needs has always been a thing. Best in Slot drops have always been a part of wow. But like I said, stuff like Infinite Stars is taking that concept to the extreme. And it's NOT good for the game at all.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2020-02-14 at 11:56 PM.

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