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  1. #81
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    I don't know what the difference is, but I can definitely say even 5k dps is hugely meaningful when the overall dps a person has on a fight is 50k. 10% variance is still way too much for a dumb special effect that is randomly acquired from non-static, RNG layered loot. "Did it drop" was good enough in the past, and it would allow stupid stuff like this to be much less meaningful, since basically everyone and their brother would get it at some point during a raid tier if they were full-clearing that raid. Now? Not so much.
    The thing is, it's not 10% variance at the moment. EVEN taking the only last big bad - Twilight Devastation - yes it sure looks impressive there on meters, but it's not a free effect, as in the guy who does not have it will simply have other corruption items that are not 0 DPS, such as various stat corruptions for example that don't even appear on meters themselves.

    That's the main point people seem to keep missing. EVEN Twilight Devastation is not some free 12% or how much it does during the run, when you pit it against other corruptions at same level in M+ it will be like maybe 5% free damage and pure RNG at that too.

    People really need to wake up and realize damage/corruption is the name of the game not just how pretty shit looks in Details.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    People really need to wake up and realize damage/corruption is the name of the game not just how pretty shit looks in Details.
    I'm not talking about how much of the total dps a specific effect contributes on someone's meters in a vacuum. It wasn't in this thread, but the level of corruption and type of corruption bot played a huge part in the comparison I made before.

    With corruption you

    1) have to get the right effect
    2) have to get the highest amount
    3) have to have a raid group capable of supporting your dumb levels of corruption

    If you get that trifecta, skill will not save whoever it is competing with you. The difference was __that__ much. If that's changed, cool, but I doubt it has.

  3. #83
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raspberry Lemon View Post
    i've killed a warrior decked out in mc gear wearing only lvl 1 daggers in classic... at lvl 58...
    Back when I played Vanilla and ended with full Naxx decked paladin, I could literally kill everyone in one swing if my shit procced right. I remember these silly Ironforge duels - it was basically all about landing one lucky Auto Attack with SoC proc against about 85% of the populace.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    I'm not talking about how much of the total dps a specific effect contributes on someone's meters in a vacuum. It wasn't in this thread, but the level of corruption and type of corruption bot played a huge part in the comparison I made before.

    With corruption you

    1) have to get the right effect
    2) have to get the highest amount
    3) have to have a raid group capable of supporting your dumb levels of corruption

    If you get that trifecta, skill will not save whoever it is competing with you. The difference was __that__ much. If that's changed, cool, but I doubt it has.
    See that's the point you are missing, because no - you really don't have to do any of that (1), (2) and (3).

    Because if you don't get the "right" effect - as long as it's not avoidant or leech - the effect is already going to be worthwhile and you don't need to get it at "highest amount" either, because it's completely fine to have a mix of various corruptions at various levels to fill your cap.

    And no, you don't need to be a retard or a dick and pack bajillion corruption in hopes of winging it and healers picking up your slack.


    I mean heck - you are talking about raids... so what's the right corruption there? Be a dear - let me know.

    Because it's certainly not TD and not really Stars for most of the fights either. For me - something like Expedient/Racing is a best choice (to some extent), but then I have 4 more corruptions that are pretty close to that too, so eh???

    No matter how much you want to deny it - DPS/Corruption ratio IS a thing - it's what balances the whole thing and it does ok at that in general after the fixes. There are still some rough spots, but it's really not that horrible as people make it out to be.
    Last edited by Gaidax; 2020-02-14 at 10:24 PM.

  4. #84
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    Kinda always been like that, I'm pretty sure I never got a single BiS Legiondary...but I was good at getting the really bad ones! Like the lava lash bracers on my Shaman.

  5. #85
    Are you trying to tell me corruption gear isn't a highly skill-based gameplay system?

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Actually WHAT he said is "It really doesnt matter how good you are anymore, if your unlucky your shit, if your lucky your op."

    Everything else is putting words into his mouth or interpreting as we like. There is nothing about equally skilled players. It literally is "It really doesnt matter how good you are anymore"
    Huh, I guess my week one Purple parses with only R1 Void Ritual beating people in my raid who had R3 Stars is just me winning the RNG lottery eh?
    Damn, if only skill out-weighted bad use of corruption over the course of multiple fights.
    /s
    This thread has been hilarious. I've read logs of players with a total of R5 stars who green parse on Heroic Maut with an up time of over 95%.
    Corruption def > actually being good at your core mechanics.
    This is why we can't have nice things.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Cut the BS really.

    You won't be 20k DPS below next guy because of corruptions, that's just nonsense. If you had half a clue, you'd realize that what matters is effect per corruption and overall after EV got nerfed and Void Ritual got buffed (and is actually decent now) things are pretty close now.

    Sure Stars is still best ST and TD is great in AoE, but it's not 20k DPS difference between that and average options.

    ---

    There was legitimate bullshit going on at launch of the patch, but right now after the adjustments? There is like maybe 1-2 outliers that don't really stick out that much, certainly not the magnitude being hyperboled here.

    I'd say Twilight Devastation is probably the only big bad left and it seems it's on Blizz radar anyway.
    And even then TD is just OP in M+ and a few fights, like Hivemind and Vexiona, where people pad meters with it. It's hardly a determining factor unless you're literally going for world first, and well, too late for that. To say nothing of the fact that while Stars looks good on sims, most fights in Ny'alotha feature adds and target switching which greatly diminishes its value.

    What happens is that people look at the raw damage of Infinite Stars or TD and go "OMG it did 10-15% of their damage! OPAF!!!" without considering that other Corruption effects might also give you a big damage boost without this being easily reflected in Details. Plus, the nature of corruption is that it is both take and give of course. One piece won't fuck you up too much, but things can get complicated as soon as you go over 40.

    Still, I wouldn't mind both these effects getting nerfed to no longer being among the best, I'm not a fan of passive procs being so high on the damage list. Essences were better given that they are actually activated abilities.

  8. #88
    It's no worse than it was in Legion when it comes to r.io not being a good indicator of skill. Any jackass can get to 2k or even 2.5k rating without being a great player. Honestly I'd pay more attention to their number of runs and how many were successful than just the quick glimpse of the score itself. Now it's corruption but in early BFA and Legion you had people with insanely TF'd gear getting into higher keys = higher score and so on without being as good as you would think.

  9. #89
    This sounds exactly like the kind of complaining that you'd see in every expansion when X players lost on either DPS meters, or in PVP, to some other player. I distinctly recall the arguments surrounding who got Shadowmourne first in the guild. One paladin got the green light to get it, before the other. The other paladin felt raw and said "now he's going to outdps me on every fight!!"... Only, the paladin getting the green light, was already the better player.

    Yes, Corruption is shit. Yes, Titanforging is shit. But if you're an actually skilled player, why so fragile? In the end, some people will always be lucky, but a bad player won't exactly suddenly know to optimize their play around the item they got lucky with.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by DazManianDevil View Post
    Huh, I guess my week one Purple parses with only R1 Void Ritual beating people in my raid who had R3 Stars is just me winning the RNG lottery eh?
    Damn, if only skill out-weighted bad use of corruption over the course of multiple fights.
    /s
    This thread has been hilarious. I've read logs of players with a total of R5 stars who green parse on Heroic Maut with an up time of over 95%.
    Corruption def > actually being good at your core mechanics.
    This is why we can't have nice things.
    You're missing the point. Of course there's hyperbole in this thread, but the whole point isn't that RNG is literally all that matters and you'll suddenly get WF kills because of RNG - it's that the spread between RNG and skill is smaller than it has ever been. Top-skilled players will, on average, still do better than low-skilled players, but there is a considerable overlap in the skill curve where more skill does not beat out more RNG, and the area of that overlap is larger than it should be.

    To illustrate: let's say skill goes from 1 to 100. Used to be that RNG adds a little bit on top, so someone with, say, skill 50 and RNG 10 would be like someone with skill 60. That still leaves people of skill 61-100 above them easily. But now you have someone with skill 50 and RNG 30, and all of a sudden the skill 61-79 which used to beat those people get left behind in the dust through no fault of their own - even though the skill 81-100 people are better STILL. And that will stay true even if the skill 60 person gets an RNG 10 or 15 item. Number for illustrative purposes only, of course.

  11. #91
    I am Murloc! dacoolist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Are you trying to tell me corruption gear isn't a highly skill-based gameplay system?
    I'm going to step in here for a minute.. So

    1) To be clear: I'm probably the worst player in WoW

    2) This mof'ca is 1200 MMR - MY GRANDMA in a WHEELCHAIR has a higher mmr than this dood..

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Hunter View Post
    Yea, like I said, this games never been about skill in pvp, only gear. It's just been more and less obvious at different times.

    Wow has never been a game you play to show off skill. It's an mmo-rpg with some competitive elements intended for entertainment, not a competitive e-sport game based on fair play.

    And in some respects its been a detriment to the enjoyment of the game at its core that design has tried to half way cater to the competitive side.
    Well, PVP is a different beast. The only place skill matters is on the tournament servers or Esports events where everyone is using the exact same gear. Otherwise it's all just screwing around, and gear absolutely overpowers all other considerations.

    However, I will say that in PVE, skill does matter in regards to upper-level content, such as high keys in M+ or Mythic raiding. Otherwise, if skill didn't matter, then everyone would be doing that. And they clearly aren't. Doing your rotation perfectly, positioning correctly, and executing fight mechanics are very important. OP gear like Infinite Stars absolutely helps. When DPS can do 20-40% more damage because of a single trait....that's kind of broken and bad design. It takes away any real option for your build and boils it down to a single stat, which is shallow and weak. Because of the nature of RNG drops, it also means that a person's performance in a raid relies even less on skill, less on build, less on procs.....it's all just a handful of lucky drops.

    Granted, getting that one drop your character needs has always been a thing. Best in Slot drops have always been a part of wow. But like I said, stuff like Infinite Stars is taking that concept to the extreme. And it's NOT good for the game at all.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2020-02-14 at 11:56 PM.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by dacoolist View Post
    I'm going to step in here for a minute.. So

    1) To be clear: I'm probably the worst player in WoW

    2) This mof'ca is 1200 MMR - MY GRANDMA in a WHEELCHAIR has a higher mmr than this dood..
    Yeah, obviously. It's more about the damage numbers. Imagine what happens when you have actually skilled players stacking this kind of gear.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by odamienskii View Post
    as bitter as i am about my luck this is hilarious, and to think the people with this gear will say they are skilled....while standing in barrel smash on 2nd boss fh to do extra dips.
    The best thing is I just whisper my infinite stars item and I'm in. This is the best thing ever. Ty blizzard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Nachtigal View Post
    Honestly raiding is kind of a dead scene for more and more people these days. Yeah, groups exist out there but their numbers are dwindling. As we move forward in time, the internet grows increasingly more toxic and people in their right minds* remove themselves from this toxicity. Leading to a new focus on smaller group content such as M+, where it’s more likely that a group of 5 friends will form, opposed to a group of 10-30/20 friends forming for a raid.

    *Not that you’re wrong for liking to do large group content, but people who know what they do/don’t want and making their decision based on that to better their daily life.

    There isn’t a game out there that doesn’t suffer from a troll problem. It’s rampant.
    can you fit more buzzwords in one post?
    if anything the m+ communnity is far more cutthroat than the raiding scene, so I have no clue what you're talking about, unless you've never actually made it past 3k rating on any season so then you don't even know what you're talking about, because everyone is a butthole at those levels.
    please find new words to describe things you don't like

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by ArkantosChampion View Post
    That image doesn't even capture the full absurdity of the RNG involved with IS.

    I have a 475 r3 IS and my damage swings from pull to pull. One pull in 4 minutes it'll do 2mil, the next pull it'll do over 6mil. I've had my r3 beat OFTEN by people with only a r2.

    The fact a corruption can swing from 2mil to 6mil from pull to pull based on nothing other than RNG is absurd.

    Playing your class doesn't even matter anymore. How you parse this tier, at least single target, is hope you get the kill on a good IS rng pull.

    Sometimes you're doing 80k at 10% sometimes you're doing 70k based on nothing other than IS procs.
    Last edited by asil; 2020-02-14 at 11:59 PM.

  17. #97
    I am Murloc! dacoolist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Yeah, obviously. It's more about the damage numbers. Imagine what happens when you have actually skilled players stacking this kind of gear.
    Agreed there on that, I just know if you stack too much corruption I can't heal you damnit - so PLEASE for th love of whatever you pray with: I'm a healer and the higher you stack I can't even heal (had a dood like this in a BG with like 200 corruption keep dying lol)

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by dacoolist View Post
    I'm going to step in here for a minute.. So

    1) To be clear: I'm probably the worst player in WoW

    2) This mof'ca is 1200 MMR - MY GRANDMA in a WHEELCHAIR has a higher mmr than this dood..
    1) We know, your sig has your armory :3

    2) We love you anyway so it's k.

  19. #99
    I would have much rather gotten plain items, and then have the 8.3 grind be about adding corruption to those items.

    Would feel way better than doing the same amount of work for a lesser item than someone else who hits the rng jackpot.

    - P

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Well, PVP is a different beast. The only place skill matters is on the tournament servers or Esports events. Otherwise it's all just screwing around, and gear absolutely overpowers all other considerations.

    However, I will say that in PVE, skill does matter in regards to upper-level content, such as high keys in M+ or Mythic raiding. Otherwise, if skill didn't matter, then everyone would be doing that. And they clearly aren't. Doing your rotation perfectly, positioning correctly, and executing fight mechanics are very important. OP gear like Infinite Stars absolutely helps. When DPS can do 20-40% more damage because of a single trait....that's kind of broken and bad design. It takes away any real option for your build and boils it down to a single stat, which is shallow and weak. Because of the nature of RNG drops, it also means that a person's performance in a raid relies even less on skill, less on build, less on procs.....it's all just a handful of lucky drops.

    Granted, getting that one drop your character needs has always been a thing. Best in Slot drops have always been a part of wow. But like I said, stuff like Infinite Stars is taking that concept to the extreme. And it's NOT good for the game at all.
    You're not doing 20-40% more damage because of a single trait. Not unless you compare a literal perfect RNG Infinite Stars rank 3 against an addless boss (so basically just Shad'har, maybe Maut if you tunnel) against no corruption whatsoever. The actual effect of winning the lottery, compared to someone with average corruption, is more along the lines of 5-7% more DPS; very important for world first raiding and stupid high key pushing, not that significant otherwise unless you're a parsemonger. On most fights switching traits will yield better results than just mindlessly going for whatever sims highest.

    Now, one would have a good point that it's still too much and too reliant on randomness. IMO you should have been able to infect gear with Corruption with Mementos or something. But let's not make this far, far worse than it actually is. This is Legiondaries all over again where people were tearing their shirts off and pretending everyone and their grandma got benched because they got a leggy that increased their DPS by 5% instead of 8% in an ideal scenario.

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