It doesnt matter how good you are anymore

[dacoolist]

1) We know, your sig has your armory :3

2) We love you anyway so it's k.

<3334 love you too fam (even if I'm mean I always mean well/joking)

The big thing is the corruption is new so it's of course not fully balanced - Blizz supposedly made multiple passes though at this corruption so.. I mean I feel like the numbers still need to be worked a bit but stacking 350 corruption will instantly kill someone on pull, nobody believes me but I sware I had this dood reporting me afk / and eventually ignored me in a BG when I was dumping heals into him and he just literally got one shot by people due to combat lol

Anyway, hopefully the corruption gets another pass on those OP ones

[Gaidax]

<3334 love you too fam (even if I'm mean I always mean well/joking)

The big thing is the corruption is new so it's of course not fully balanced - Blizz supposedly made multiple passes though at this corruption so.. I mean I feel like the numbers still need to be worked a bit but stacking 350 corruption will instantly kill someone on pull, nobody believes me but I sware I had this dood reporting me afk / and eventually ignored me in a BG when I was dumping heals into him and he just literally got one shot by people due to combat lol

Anyway, hopefully the corruption gets another pass on those OP ones

As a side note about this system, I always found it amusing how Blizzard had the gall to give such a severe kiss/curse system to the general unwashed populace.

I can only imagine the shitshow in LFR and BGs down the road with people not understanding the system just equipping everything they got and getting two-shot right and left.

[united]

So a scrub that has never set foot in a +5 can suddenly push +15?

And someone that used to do +15 blindfolded with one arm on the back is suddenly so bad that a +5 means wiping on the first pack?

when you know you have no true argument so you have to act obtuse lmao

[Alydael]

Wrong.


This game has always been about staying on the tread mill and getting the best gear you could, but in the past (pre-legion), the variability of the impact gear had of various ilvls wasn't nearly as large as it is now. Two people clearing the same content could relatively reasonably expect to have the same gear, and thus skill would be the determining factor for performance (assuming same spec).


Mischaracterization at it's finest. People weren't mad at templates and not being able to out-gear people. They were mad that 1) gear STILL ABSOLUTELY had an impact and 2) Even with the easy tuning knobs of templates, balance was still horrendous and oversaturated with fotm specs and comps. They should have been tuning that shit weekly. They failed at utilizing the tool properly.


And again, that's easy enough to do. So what does the game come down to AFTER you reach that relatively low bar? What was left to optimize? Ah. Right. Personal performance and skill.


The entire reason raiding was as long lived and as popular as it is in wow is because of the unique competitive cooperation it has. People love to epeen stroke. Just downing a boss in a group is boring, and no one likes to be the bitch getting carried (well.. maybe they do?).



Literally every sport in the history of ever. What matters to people and how much it matters isn't for you to say. "But sports make so much money!" yeah, and when "kick a ball with your firends" started back in like 12097963bc, did it make tons of money then? No? It took Time? A SHIT ton of time? Wow. Who would have thought.

- - - Updated - - -



I don't know what the difference is, but I can definitely say even 5k dps is hugely meaningful when the overall dps a person has on a fight is 50k. 10% variance is still way too much for a dumb special effect that is randomly acquired from non-static, RNG layered loot. "Did it drop" was good enough in the past, and it would allow stupid stuff like this to be much less meaningful, since basically everyone and their brother would get it at some point during a raid tier if they were full-clearing that raid. Now? Not so much.

1) I still think that it never mattered how good you were in this game- you didn't prove anything by stating "wrong."

2) I agree with you that the gear is more variable now. That's totally random though. To support your argument that this would play a part in negating player skill, the variability would have to be intentionally targeted to benefit lower skilled players and its just not- its random.

3) Gear didn't have an impact at first (in beta).... they changed it to have a small impact because people were complaining. As for balance- has this game ever been balanced? Not in my memory- there are always OP, fotm and nerfed classes...... that's just the nature of this game and will never change. Blizzard has proven themselves thoroughly incapable of balancing this game. I always wondered if they hired a professional statistician to balance the game, would he/she would be able to?

4) You admitted that the bar is low and said that that leaves skill but you didn't really offer any evidence on that so not sure how to respond....

5) I don't think raiding was popular because of e-peens and you are referring to a different type of competition. Raiding was popular because you could group up with your friends, chat and bs on discord while you killed something. It requires some strat- so there is something to keep it interesting but I don't think people raided because they were "competitive." I'm sure some did, but I don't think that is true of the majority. It was more of a social thing for most, I think.

6) The game and the sport don't really matter. They are forms of entertainment. I like WOW and enjoy it, as I enjoy a football game- but do either really matter? I don't think so........ After WoW, there will be some other game to play. People will say things like "remember when we used to play warcraft with the raids and all that...." and then the conversation will move on.... See? It doesn't really matter......

[Akibaboy]

Just make a guild called "No Corruption" where everyone cleanses the gear immediately. You'll all know that you have the absolute BiS items, and that you're playing the game on the hardest, most expertly tuned difficulty with zero crutches or perks. Come to the forums and boast how you've pushed high ass keys and gotten mythic raid kills 100% by the skill of your gameplay by denying the bonus effects. No different than turning off the 30% in ICC and killing Heroic LK, then showing it off to the world.

People who've been complaining about Titanforging ruining BiS and that gear drops too frequently could've been doing this for almost a decade now by just DEing 'forged gear and proclaiming that they're playing the game the Classic, more challenging way.

[Laqweeta]

The difference is, if it dropped in MC, BWL, Naxx, whatever prior to Throne of Thunder, it was always the item. It never had a chance to suddenly be as good or better than the the hardest difficulty's base item level. If you do LFR and you Titanforge to max item level while someone has the same exact item drops in Mythic and it doesn't Titanforge, you got rewarded for essentially AFKing over someone who has to play next to perfect to get a worse item.

You're talking about a completely different system, that while it was active, had unlimited tries. I also got all 34 mage tower appearances. I was also a Mythic raider at one point. One of the reason I quit was because it felt stupid to be doing Mythic every week and then I go into a PUG heroic group or normal group and watch some guy who barely showed up on the meter get an item better than my Mythic item. In Legion, I had to completely switch my main because I was raiding Mythic EN and my alt shadow priest had the BIS belt drop while my paladin had the shitty interrupt ring drop (well before they buffed into being actually usable). The RNG loot system with additional RNG that now has even MORE RNG put on top of it makes it extremely disappointing when you get screwed over constantly.

If they want to fix the system, make it so it can't roll higher than the next difficulty's base level until they've cleared that boss on the next difficulty.

Or just turn LFR into what they did with WoD. Ugly looking gear that was horrible stat wise.

Or better yet, remove LFR all together. Normal pugs are not a problem now because of the LFM we have now.

[Gaidax]

Or better yet, remove LFR all together. Normal pugs are not a problem now because of the LFM we have now.

I never understood why LFR inflicts such a mental anguish on various posters here. Guess it's part of the "if it's not for me - it's terrible and needs to be removed".

[Laqweeta]

I never understood why LFR inflicts such a mental anguish on various posters here. Guess it's part of the "if it's not for me - it's terrible and needs to be removed".

It's not that at all.

LFR makes players terrible. LFR makes gear feel worthless, as does World Quests. Oh, you got a TF 445 WQ piece tapping a mob at 2% HP? Wow, it took me forever to get mine clearing M EP.

Not only that, but removing LFR removes quite a big gear bump as well.

All players wanted was to see the story, so add in single player scenarios. Done.

[SirCowdog]

Let's not make this far, far worse than it actually is. This is Legiondaries all over again where people were tearing their shirts off and pretending everyone and their grandma got benched because they got a leggy that increased their DPS by 5% instead of 8% in an ideal scenario.

I think the issue that really gets under people's skin is the random nature of acquiring it. As you said, it's the same sort of thing as legendaries, which also had that problem.

What it boils down to is the extreme unfairness of it. One person does some stupid non-difficult thing and gets a random drop that jumps their performance, another person has been doing mythic raiding and high M+ keys for weeks and has nothing to show for it. The disparity between those things is all wrong, and it rubs people the wrong way.

Ion likes to say "We've learned a lot from this", but it doesn't seem like they actually are. If this kind of thing makes its way into Shadowlands, there's going to be a lot of unhappy players.

[Sanguinerd]

It's not that at all.

LFR makes players terrible. LFR makes gear feel worthless, as does World Quests. Oh, you got a TF 445 WQ piece tapping a mob at 2% HP? Wow, it took me forever to get mine clearing M EP.

Not only that, but removing LFR removes quite a big gear bump as well.

All players wanted was to see the story, so add in single player scenarios. Done.

Nah, lets remove heroic & mythic raiding instead - just do normal or lfr and be happy with it.

People obsessed with "being good" and claim they "want a challenge" are liars.

LFR > Mythic


/s

[Laqweeta]

Nah, lets remove heroic & mythic raiding instead - just do normal or lfr and be happy with it.

People obsessed with "being good" and claim they "want a challenge" are liars.

LFR > Mythic

100% guaranteed LFR hero/WQ expert lmao

[Marrilaife]

I think the issue that really gets under people's skin is the random nature of acquiring it. As you said, it's the same sort of thing as legendaries, which also had that problem.

What it boils down to is the extreme unfairness of it. One person does some stupid non-difficult thing and gets a random drop that jumps their performance, another person has been doing mythic raiding and high M+ keys for weeks and has nothing to show for it. The disparity between those things is all wrong, and it rubs people the wrong way.

Ion likes to say "We've learned a lot from this", but it doesn't seem like they actually are. If this kind of thing makes its way into Shadowlands, there's going to be a lot of unhappy players.

Yep, and it's even worse than legion legendaries, because legion legendaries:
1. Had a cap of 2 equipped
2. You were guaranteed at some point of the game to actually get all of them (so ultimately get BIS even if it took you 6 months)
3. Had BLP
4. Didn't have extra variance in them, pyro bracer was pyro bracer not 420 pyro bracer rank 1 vs 475 pyro bracer rank 3
5. Oh, and didn't have a chance to kill you for just wearing them

There's also a big difference between "op item that adds you 5% dps" and "op corruption that can add up to 20-30% dps", just a reminder legion leggos that DID add 10-20% dps or more GOT NERFED.

Also forgot to mention:
6. You didn't have a chance to "cleanse" your sephuz into a normal ring or reroll it into something else so when it ultimately got buffed you wouldn't feel stupid for getting rid of it. Not the case with corruption. They even made leggos undeletable after someone spread a rumour that deleting them increased your chance to get another (which Blizz claimed to be false).

[Jastall]

I think the issue that really gets under people's skin is the random nature of acquiring it. As you said, it's the same sort of thing as legendaries, which also had that problem.

What it boils down to is the extreme unfairness of it. One person does some stupid non-difficult thing and gets a random drop that jumps their performance, another person has been doing mythic raiding and high M+ keys for weeks and has nothing to show for it. The disparity between those things is all wrong, and it rubs people the wrong way.

Ion likes to say "We've learned a lot from this", but it doesn't seem like they actually are. If this kind of thing makes its way into Shadowlands, there's going to be a lot of unhappy players.

It's not too much different from me getting jack squat for a good month of ICC while the other warrior got Deathbringer's Will week one, 4 pc week two or three and was chosen to wield Shadowmourne when we (very eventually!) managed to get it. Or getting that lucky Edgemaster's Handguards in Classic. Gear has always mattered the most when it comes to performance in this game, and the drops have always been RNG. It's worse with corruption but only by a degree, and it is also infinitely more farmable than the raid drops of yore. Plus some of the best corrupted items often come from the M+ cache (guaranteed corruption) or raid weapons (guaranteed specific corruption).

I'm eager to see what they do with leggys in Shadowlands. The new acquisition method seems far more deterministic than in the past. Why they didn't apply this lesson in BFA is obvious, WoW has a really long lead time when it comes to development. 8.3 and its systems were in the pipeline by the time we were raiding BoD at the very latest. They can't really just turn things off and restart easily.

[Gaidax]

Yep, and it's even worse than legion legendaries, because legion legendaries:
1. Had a cap of 2 equipped
2. You were guaranteed at some point of the game to actually get all of them (so ultimately get BIS even if it took you 6 months)
3. Had BLP
4. Didn't have extra variance in them, pyro bracer was pyro bracer not 420 pyro bracer rank 1 vs 475 pyro bracer rank 3
5. Oh, and didn't have a chance to kill you for just wearing them

There's also a big difference between "op item that adds you 5% dps" and "op corruption that can add up to 20-30% dps", just a reminder legion leggos that DID add 10-20% dps or more GOT NERFED.

Also forgot to mention:
6. You didn't have a chance to "cleanse" your sephuz into a normal ring or reroll it into something else so when it ultimately got buffed you wouldn't feel stupid for getting rid of it. Not the case with corruption. They even made leggos undeletable after someone spread a rumour that deleting them increased your chance to get another (which Blizz claimed to be false).

You did not get a guaranteed legion legendary in your weekly welfare box. Corrupted items are much more frequent and the way system works is that you are capped by rating instead of amount of equipped items, with varying tiers you can pretty easily mix and match decent corruption sets, where as Legion was pretty binary - you either got that awesome ass item or didn't.

For example we're like what - one month in and people who did their shit are already corruption capped and with not bad sets either. Given another month and just about everyone who gives a damn will rock 1-2 optimal sets for their favorite activity.

[Bryntrollian]

Those damn RPG elements keep weaseling their way into my " skill based MMO "

[SirCowdog]

It's not too much different from me getting jack squat for a good month of ICC while the other warrior got Deathbringer's Will week one, 4 pc week two or three and was chosen to wield Shadowmourne when we (very eventually!) managed to get it. Or getting that lucky Edgemaster's Handguards in Classic. Gear has always mattered the most when it comes to performance in this game, and the drops have always been RNG. It's worse with corruption but only by a degree, and it is also infinitely more farmable than the raid drops of yore. Plus some of the best corrupted items often come from the M+ cache (guaranteed corruption) or raid weapons (guaranteed specific corruption).

Two words: Master. Loot.

The problem here is magnified by the idiotic personal loot restrictions. Yes, there are some exceptions. More on this below.

I'm eager to see what they do with leggys in Shadowlands. The new acquisition method seems far more deterministic than in the past. Why they didn't apply this lesson in BFA is obvious, WoW has a really long lead time when it comes to development. 8.3 and its systems were in the pipeline by the time we were raiding BoD at the very latest. They can't really just turn things off and restart easily.

I agree. But it remains to be seen whether or not, or to what degree, Blizzard follows through on their claim that Shadowlands is going to be all about player agency.

Again, these are all little things adding up and exacerbating each other. Corruption itself isn't that much worse than legendaries. But when combined with the inability to trade or sort effectively within a raid group makes it just that little bit worse.

I'm really hoping that Shadowlands is the "pull the stick out of your ass, Blizzard" expansion. They're starting with unpruning. I'm hoping they also revert the GCD change, and actually let gear be something that players can reasonably target with some certainty. The over-reliance on RNG has been one of the great fun-vampires of the past couple expansions. Some RNG is fine. But too much is too much.

I know that's a fine line to draw, and subjective to boot. But it's really at the point of the ridiculous right now.

[Voidwielder]

What OP said was relevant maybe 2 weeks ago.

Not anymore. If you fail 15s, someone is playing bad.

[Lurker1]

he's saying being better or putting more effort into the game isn't rewarding. Having amazing luck is.

feels good man!

[SirCowdog]

Yep, and it's even worse than legion legendaries, because legion legendaries:
1. Had a cap of 2 equipped
2. You were guaranteed at some point of the game to actually get all of them (so ultimately get BIS even if it took you 6 months)
3. Had BLP
4. Didn't have extra variance in them, pyro bracer was pyro bracer not 420 pyro bracer rank 1 vs 475 pyro bracer rank 3
5. Oh, and didn't have a chance to kill you for just wearing them

There's also a big difference between "op item that adds you 5% dps" and "op corruption that can add up to 20-30% dps", just a reminder legion leggos that DID add 10-20% dps or more GOT NERFED.

Also forgot to mention:
6. You didn't have a chance to "cleanse" your sephuz into a normal ring or reroll it into something else so when it ultimately got buffed you wouldn't feel stupid for getting rid of it. Not the case with corruption. They even made leggos undeletable after someone spread a rumour that deleting them increased your chance to get another (which Blizz claimed to be false).

I know the forum mods frown on memes, but it just seems like this fits the situation. Whatever it is that Blizzard is "learning" from their mistakes, doesn't appear to be the right lessons.

[Gaidax]

I think people simply do not understand how much better this is than TF. The whole "points" system with corruption is pretty brilliant really and DPS/Corruption is a great balancing target overall.

I think there are 3 real flaws here:

• Corruption downsides can be more easily ignored by specific classes/specs/roles, which allows more benefit stacking than intended.
• System is complicated and misunderstood by players, which can lead to a lot of frustration.
• Whole ilvl system is somewhat broken now. Blizz told us how they want ilvl to matter and then went on and shat on it.

The rest are just balance issues that will be fixed (to some extent) and plain old "I did not get my best shit week 3 of the patch, what the fuck Blizz??"