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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    I'd wager that's more because of Anduin being pretty good at building interpersonal relationships than any genuine authority afforded to the High King/Supreme Commander of the Alliance. Genn holds himself back because Anduin has become something of a surrogate son to him, and Tyrande eventually hit her breaking point and forced his hand at Darkshore when his attention was split on other things, prompting Anduin to authorize troops being diverted to help in Darkshore (mostly adventurers, which Anduin managed by delaying the assault on Dazar'Alor so he could get everyone back on the same page). Luckily for him, Shandris is a true believer in the Alliance despite recent losses on the night elves' end, so he still has an in with the kaldorei going forward.
    Could be. The problem is that we only had two high kings so we don't even know how to become one.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  2. #22
    Legendary! Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    the only "democratic" ones are mayyyyybe the gnomes.
    communist? i dont know, maybe forsaken, but after all they effectively dont need means of production to survive
    Gnomes are a meritocracy - While High Tinker is given based on the vote, the vote is whom the best tinker is.

    Anyway..

    Orcs (Mag'har as well), Trolls, Tauren, Highmountain Tauren - Tribalism.

    Humans, Dwarves, Mechagnomes, Worgen, Zandalari - Monarchy. Kul Tiran - Feudalism.

    Blood Elves, Dark Iron - Regency. Previously a Monarchy.

    Void Elves, Pandaren - Anarchy.

    Goblins - Oligarchy.

    Night Elves, Draenei, Lightforged Draenei - Theocracy

    Gnomes, Nightborne - Meritocracy

    Vulpera - Mentioned to be a Democracy in a quest if I recall, as the Vulperan Caravans vote for whoever their leader will be.

    Undead - Ex-Dictactorship. Currently an Anarchy.
    Anyone ever notice how the sun seems to shine silverish now? Didn't it used to shine goldish? PM me if you've noticed this.
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    i doubt that forsaken can make a monarchy. they dont have an aristocracy to elect the monarch nor can effectively have a prince/princess.
    they are fundamentally a revolutionary autocracy, she was the heroine of the people. queen is only the in-setting title (both lordaeron and quel'thalas were monarchies)
    They have aristocracy but I don't think their titles remained important after their deaths.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  4. #24
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The Pandaren are interesting in that their society seems to be a very unlikely form of functioning stateless collectivism - no central government to speak of, just a collection of isolated villages and freeholds with presumably elected leaders to control the loose bureaucracy of each collective. Full freedom of movement, functioning industry, and even trade across villages without any kind of centrally controlled economy, government, or coalesced power. Unsure if this is a state of affairs that followed the disappearance of Emperor Shaohao, or if Shaohao's imperial title was more a figurehead than an actual ruler of Pandaren society. I guess one could say the Shado-Pan represent a central government of a sort, but they only seem to concern themselves with monitoring the Sha and countering the Mantid and Yaungol when and if they act up. Other than that they don't really seem to have any kind of leadership role in mainland Pandaren society.
    Off the top of my head, it seems to be a direct result of their extremely zen culture (itself a necessity due to the Sha). An entire culture built around harmony tends not to need much by way of ruling bodies to keep shitty people in check, as it seems the Shado-Pan have authority to 'induct' anyone who's particularly disruptive and poses a risk of causing Sha outbreaks accordingly.

    It'd be interesting to see how their culture develops without the threat of the Sha and, as of BFA, with the mantid once again crippled, this time without any apparent successor and all the Old Gods their culture is built around dead. It's likely that the current state of things has become so ingrained in pandaren culture that they'll continue forward as-is, since even without that particular Sword of Damocles hanging over their head, the system works well for their genial culture and relaxed pace of living.

    I'm also curious as to how the Shado-Pan will change once Taoshi, Taran Zhu's apparent successor-in-training and second, and a member of the Uncrowned's leading council, takes over given her aforementioned affiliation.
    Last edited by Thage; 2020-02-14 at 07:19 PM. Reason: Clarification
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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    Humans, Dwarves, Mechagnomes, Worgen, Zandalari - Monarchy. Kul Tiran - Feudalism.
    God-King is also a high priest of main loa.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    Could be. The problem is that we only had two high kings so we don't even know how to become one.
    Right now all signs point to being appointed by the rest of the Alliance. Varian earned his place during the Pandaren campaign (although it was largely a formality, as he had personally overseen most Alliance operations since his return before the second Scourge Invasion regardless) and Anduin got the job because of his personal ties with most of the Alliance leadership.
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    They have aristocracy but I don't think their titles remained important after their deaths.
    so they dont have it?

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    Different from Dalaran magocracy. Here you have one dictator and people vote for advisors for him. Dictator has absolute power.

    In Dalaran, there is a council that has absolute power. When one of members is expelled by the rest or dead, they choose a new member to take his place.



    With tribes.


    Patrimonial. He doesn't need to give the power to his son. He can appoint a dead elf.


    But the King seems to be able to prevent wars by his own, despite so many warmongers in his court.


    They have some autonomy. Also, warchief is removable.
    Oh of course, anything is removable by forceful rebellion

    On the King able to prevent wars, that is because warmongers are actually a minority among the rest of the states, they wouldn't go to war without the support of the alliance, they can, but they will do so alone (darkshore) with only the willing support of others, if they convince the high king, he can call the other states for war, and the other states can decline (draenei in BFA, they stayed mostly out of it due to being spent from legion)
    "Welcome to MMO-C, where most posters would rather play semantics, pick faults or just flat out fail at reading comprehension so they can argue with you over an issue that wasn't even in the original post."
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  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    the only "democratic" ones are mayyyyybe the gnomes.
    Not anymore they abolished democracy, with their unification, crowning Delbin king.

  10. #30
    Democracy and communism? Old Gods represent both, they are a literal cancer after all.
    M-mom? M-m-mommy, p-please d-d-d-don't kill me. I-I rea-lly am not j-just a lump of cells. Pleasssse Mommy.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Not anymore they abolished democracy, with their unification, crowning Delbin king.
    It's questionable as to how much they've erected a full monarchy and how much is just them putting elections on hold while they sort everything out--at this point, Gelbin has won every election since he invented the mechanostrider, if memory serves, so coronating him for the sake of stability (and because so far, nobody else has the merits necessary to challenge him in the elections) may only be a short-term thing. Regardless, once he passes/dies I expect the gnomes will return to electing High Tinkers.

    There's also the question of this being done to help integrate the mechagnomes, as Mekkatorque's coronation is apparently being done to unify the gnomes and mechagnomes; once the mechagnomes adjust to the ideas of the gnomes' democratic meritocracy we could see elections resume. So abolish is a bit of a strong word here, it feels more like when pre-Caesar Rome would appoint a de facto king during wartime for the sake of keeping everything running smoothly with a minimum of bureaucracy (and Gelbin doesn't seem the Caesar type who would take the opportunity to establish a hereditary monarchy regardless).
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  12. #32
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    Off the top of my head, it seems to be a direct result of their extremely zen culture (itself a necessity due to the Sha). An entire culture built around harmony tends not to need much by way of ruling bodies to keep shitty people in check, as it seems the Shado-Pan have authority to 'induct' anyone who's particularly disruptive and poses a risk of causing Sha outbreaks accordingly.

    It'd be interesting to see how their culture develops without the threat of the Sha and, as of BFA, with the mantid once again crippled, this time without any apparent successor and all the Old Gods their culture is built around dead. It's likely that the current state of things has become so ingrained in pandaren culture that they'll continue forward as-is, since even without that particular Sword of Damocles hanging over their head, the system works well for their genial culture and relaxed pace of living.

    I'm also curious as to how the Shado-Pan will change once Taoshi, Taran Zhu's apparent successor-in-training and second, and a member of the Uncrowned's leading council, takes over given her aforementioned affiliation.
    I'd probably agree with the idea that the threat of the Sha kind of stood in for any kind of central authority insofar as enforcing social law and custom goes, as the necessity for repression of negative emotions would keep the populace on the straight and narrow without much of a need for external enforcement. With the Shado-Pan dealing with the rare outliers in their culture you have a functioning "state" where individuals essentially keep themselves in line, lest they provoke a greater evil in the form of the Sha to bedevil them.

    10,000+ years of isolation and social repression has probably permanently shaped their society, as well - it'd take quite a long while to see any marked changes in mainland Pandaren culture, I'd wager. I don't really see Taoshi changing much of Zhu's policies as concerns the Shado-Pan, while she might have more willingness to work with outsiders like the Horde and Alliance she'd probably keep such contact to a minimum and confined to working with Shado-Pan agents who are already far removed from the hustle of bustle of Pandaren society. Interestingly enough the Pandaren of the Wandering Isles seem to share in the mainland Pandaren's penchant for self-governance, despite the lack of the Sha making it a necessity. This is either down to the very nature of the Pandaren as a people, or perhaps the Pandaren of the Wandering Isles haven't shed their cultural fear of emotionality due to their history on the mainland before departing with Shen-zin Su.
    "I remember what I told you, but I can't remember why. The moon is turning red and bleeding through the sky. Absolution, redemption, salvation at the end - when justice is served don't expect me to attend." - Trust Obey, "Raymond Chandler Evening"

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The Pandaren are interesting in that their society seems to be a very unlikely form of functioning stateless collectivism - no central government to speak of, just a collection of isolated villages and freeholds with presumably elected leaders to control the loose bureaucracy of each collective. Full freedom of movement, functioning industry, and even trade across villages without any kind of centrally controlled economy, government, or coalesced power. Unsure if this is a state of affairs that followed the disappearance of Emperor Shaohao, or if Shaohao's imperial title was more a figurehead than an actual ruler of Pandaren society. I guess one could say the Shado-Pan represent a central government of a sort, but they only seem to concern themselves with monitoring the Sha and countering the Mantid and Yaungol when and if they act up. Other than that they don't really seem to have any kind of leadership role in mainland Pandaren society.
    Sounds quite idyllic, perhaps a proper implementation of collectivism if there was one. I wonder how outward diplomacy would be done to represent the pandaren, maybe through the shado-pan? They seem to be the military organ at least, aside from the occasional militias we see.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I'd probably agree with the idea that the threat of the Sha kind of stood in for any kind of central authority insofar as enforcing social law and custom goes, as the necessity for repression of negative emotions would keep the populace on the straight and narrow without much of a need for external enforcement. With the Shado-Pan dealing with the rare outliers in their culture you have a functioning "state" where individuals essentially keep themselves in line, lest they provoke a greater evil in the form of the Sha to bedevil them.

    10,000+ years of isolation and social repression has probably permanently shaped their society, as well - it'd take quite a long while to see any marked changes in mainland Pandaren culture, I'd wager. I don't really see Taoshi changing much of Zhu's policies as concerns the Shado-Pan, while she might have more willingness to work with outsiders like the Horde and Alliance she'd probably keep such contact to a minimum and confined to working with Shado-Pan agents who are already far removed from the hustle of bustle of Pandaren society. Interestingly enough the Pandaren of the Wandering Isles seem to share in the mainland Pandaren's penchant for self-governance, despite the lack of the Sha making it a necessity. This is either down to the very nature of the Pandaren as a people, or perhaps the Pandaren of the Wandering Isles haven't shed their cultural fear of emotionality due to their history on the mainland before departing with Shen-zin Su.
    My main considerations with Taoshi lay in the more unsavory aspects of the Shado-Pan, aspects Yalia seems to take no joy in as well. For example, under Taoshi I imagine most of their hardline stances will be all but eliminated (especially the threat of torture used in Trial of the Red Blossoms which may or may not have been legitimate) with the Sha removed entirely as a threat and mantid crippled possibly for good this time.

    Her penchant for working with outsiders could also see pandaren more active in world affairs as mediators, and the Shado-Pan acting as another Argent Dawn-like institution as N'zoth's invasions have made it pretty clear they can't remain in relative isolation forever.
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  15. #35
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    My main considerations with Taoshi lay in the more unsavory aspects of the Shado-Pan, aspects Yalia seems to take no joy in as well. For example, under Taoshi I imagine most of their hardline stances will be all but eliminated (especially the threat of torture used in Trial of the Red Blossoms which may or may not have been legitimate) with the Sha removed entirely as a threat and mantid crippled possibly for good this time.
    I think that's likely, yes - such things may no longer be strictly necessary (if they ever were) for Shado-Pan recruitment. I'm not sure the Mantid are necessarily a non-threat despite their losses in the Ny'alotha conflict, especially since they thrived and continued to be a menace despite the loss of their former "god" Y'Shaarj for millennia. It's likely the Klaxxi will soon empower yet a new queen of the Mantid to guide them into another era, and they'll continue to use the swarm as a means to hone their might at the cost of Pandaren lives. The threat of the displaced Yaungol also remain in the Townlong Steppes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    Her penchant for working with outsiders could also see pandaren more active in world affairs as mediators, and the Shado-Pan acting as another Argent Dawn-like institution as N'zoth's invasions have made it pretty clear they can't remain in relative isolation forever.
    I don't really think it's the Shado-Pan that would isolate the Pandaren, but rather the insular and xenophobic nature of the mainland Pandaren in general. I can see trade opening up a good deal with some Pandaren enclaves, but it would probably be kept as discrete as possible, with access to their heartland not forbidden but generally discouraged and frowned upon. The high cost of Horde and Alliance interference in Pandaren culture is likely still on the minds of many mainland Pandaren even today, not without good reason either.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Narwhalosh Whalescream View Post
    Sounds quite idyllic, perhaps a proper implementation of collectivism if there was one. I wonder how outward diplomacy would be done to represent the pandaren, maybe through the shado-pan? They seem to be the military organ at least, aside from the occasional militias we see.
    I would imagine the Shado-Pan, themselves mostly non-conformists from mainland Pandaren culture, would continue to be the branch of their society that interacts with foreign nations like the Alliance and Horde - keeping such influences away from the people and acting as an informal barrier of sorts. I would not be surprised if the Shado-Pan had representatives whose role was solely in dealing with the Alliance and Horde dignitaries, acting on behalf of the mainland Pandaren as a whole. Kind of a graduated evolution of the manner in which they dealt with Vol'jin and Tyrathan Khort in "Shadows of the Horde."
    "I remember what I told you, but I can't remember why. The moon is turning red and bleeding through the sky. Absolution, redemption, salvation at the end - when justice is served don't expect me to attend." - Trust Obey, "Raymond Chandler Evening"

  16. #36
    I'm going to cite this thread as a reason as to why I quit WoW. People like the OP.

    I can't just play a game anymore.

  17. #37
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I would imagine the Shado-Pan, themselves mostly non-conformists from mainland Pandaren culture, would continue to be the branch of their society that interacts with foreign nations like the Alliance and Horde - keeping such influences away from the people and acting as an informal barrier of sorts. I would not be surprised if the Shado-Pan had representatives whose role was solely in dealing with the Alliance and Horde dignitaries, acting on behalf of the mainland Pandaren as a whole. Kind of a graduated evolution of the manner in which they dealt with Vol'jin and Tyrathan Khort in "Shadows of the Horde."
    Sounds like a good job for Yalia to settle into now that she and Chen are apparently an item. The temples of Yu'lon and Chi'ji would also work well as emissaries given their respective temples' main focus (wisdom and hope).
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  18. #38
    The Scourge is obviously stalinist. You've heard it here first.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    so they dont have it?
    Well, there are Barovs and such. We know that Forsaken often claim rights to their former land, so I guess they are at least bougeoisie.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    Right now all signs point to being appointed by the rest of the Alliance. Varian earned his place during the Pandaren campaign (although it was largely a formality, as he had personally overseen most Alliance operations since his return before the second Scourge Invasion regardless) and Anduin got the job because of his personal ties with most of the Alliance leadership.
    Anduin's appointment wasn't explained. It just looks as if Blizzard didn't care and they put king of Stormwind in charge.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Samsara View Post
    Oh of course, anything is removable by forceful rebellion
    Mak'gora was legal. It was stupid as it favored the strongest but it was here.
    On the King able to prevent wars, that is because warmongers are actually a minority among the rest of the states, they wouldn't go to war without the support of the alliance, they can, but they will do so alone (darkshore) with only the willing support of others, if they convince the high king, he can call the other states for war, and the other states can decline (draenei in BFA, they stayed mostly out of it due to being spent from legion)
    Pandaren and Draenei didn't want war. Night elves, worgen, void elves, high elves and some humans wanted war. I think dwarves were just neutral here.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    The Scourge is obviously stalinist. You've heard it here first.
    They had a king.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    The Scourge is obviously stalinist. You've heard it here first.
    Well it's certainly top down ruled, but isn't everyone equal in death?

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